the 4 elements [Archive] - Wizards Community

the 4 elements [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
crimsonwolf
03-08-07, 02:37 AM http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html

lol this is so much like the argument on the boards now adays about katans how they cut and everything else from guns to how armor should protect pepole.
Pandaemoni
03-08-07, 03:50 AM A lot of games are played that way. While four-element universe makes sense from the standpoint of modeling a magical medieval setting, it's hard for many gamers (especially given our generally high nerd-quotient) to ignore the science we know and love. I've played with DMs who simply assumed a 92+ element universe and never realized that the four elemental planes were intended to suggest that, for example, table salt is *not* sodium chloride, but is instead made by mixing "water," "earth" and "air" in the proper way.

It's also a very alien system to modern readers, and one which the books don't explain well. The Empedoclean (4-element) Theory of the matter doesn't have "atoms" in it and the "elements" are not chemical substances in the way we know them. They are combinations of properties. When you mix air and earth to make minerals, the air and earth are "gone" when the process is done. It's their properties alone that "make" the new substance. You couldn't say in any strict sense, for example, that a new substance was "made of" air and earth the way one could say that table salt is made of sodium and chlorine. It's more like arithmetic. If you add 2 and 4 you get 6, but you wouldn't say that 6 is "made of" 2 and 4.

Those oddities, amongst others, make chemistry more comfortable for many people.

I like the Empedoclean Theory myself. It's quaint, and was a far more complex theory than many people give it credit for (which is why it dominated scientific thought until at least the 17th century). Besides, if you allow modern chemistry to replace good old Empedoclean alchemy you get players who want Titanium Elementals or gates to the Plane of Elemental Platinum. :D
crimsonwolf
03-08-07, 09:18 AM lol you totally missed the point lol that was dealing with the "experet " topic poster
Bluehero
03-08-07, 09:44 PM If you wanted a chemistry version you could consider the classic elements to be states of matter. Water represents all liquid, earth represents all solids, air represents gasses, and fire represents plasma or energy.
Bob the Efreet
03-09-07, 05:01 PM If you wanted a chemistry version you could consider the classic elements to be states of matter. Water represents all liquid, earth represents all solids, air represents gasses, and fire represents plasma or energy.

What about Bose-Einstein condensates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose-Einstein_condensate)? Don't we need a fifth element to handle that? Or am I just putting too much physics into D&D? ;)
Romtos
03-10-07, 03:34 AM What about Bose-Einstein condensates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose-Einstein_condensate)? Don't we need a fifth element to handle that? Or am I just putting too much physics into D&D? ;)

I'm pretty sure that's only one of two possible condensates. Maybe some sort of twin-planes? (Twin Kingdoms of Bytopia? :P )
Warforged Goblin
03-10-07, 08:40 AM http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html

lol this is so much like the argument on the boards now adays about katans how they cut and everything else from guns to how armor should protect pepole.

Meh, who cares? I'm still gonna try and make the stats for Mercury Elementals...
Zonhin
03-10-07, 04:15 PM Of course you're all forgetting about the elemental planes of, according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_of_matter)...
Quantum Halls, Quantum Spin Halls, Fermionic Condensates, Supersolids, Superfluids, amorphous solids, Liquid Crystals, Supercritcal Fluids, Colloids, Degenerate Matter, Electron Degenerate Matter, Neutronium, Strange matter, Quark-Gluon Plasma, Weakly Symmetric Matter, and Strongly symmetric matter.
Wow.
That would make for some complicated inner planes.
Bob the Efreet
03-10-07, 04:46 PM I'm pretty sure that's only one of two possible condensates. Maybe some sort of twin-planes? (Twin Kingdoms of Bytopia? :P )

I did leave out fermionic condensates. I always seem to forget about those.
Doom_Linnorm
03-11-07, 05:10 AM Now take a look at the next strip and you'll see a funny little retort.
Gues that elf isn't so worthless at all.
Rock Paper Scissors man!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crimsonwolf 03-08-07, 02:37 AM	http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html lol this is so much like the argument on the boards now adays about katans how they cut and everything else from guns to how armor should protect pepole.
Pandaemoni 03-08-07, 03:50 AM	A lot of games are played that way. While four-element universe makes sense from the standpoint of modeling a magical medieval setting, it's hard for many gamers (especially given our generally high nerd-quotient) to ignore the science we know and love. I've played with DMs who simply assumed a 92+ element universe and never realized that the four elemental planes were intended to suggest that, for example, table salt is not sodium chloride, but is instead made by mixing "water," "earth" and "air" in the proper way. It's also a very alien system to modern readers, and one which the books don't explain well. The Empedoclean (4-element) Theory of the matter doesn't have "atoms" in it and the "elements" are not chemical substances in the way we know them. They are combinations of properties. When you mix air and earth to make minerals, the air and earth are "gone" when the process is done. It's their properties alone that "make" the new substance. You couldn't say in any strict sense, for example, that a new substance was "made of" air and earth the way one could say that table salt is made of sodium and chlorine. It's more like arithmetic. If you add 2 and 4 you get 6, but you wouldn't say that 6 is "made of" 2 and 4. Those oddities, amongst others, make chemistry more comfortable for many people. I like the Empedoclean Theory myself. It's quaint, and was a far more complex theory than many people give it credit for (which is why it dominated scientific thought until at least the 17th century). Besides, if you allow modern chemistry to replace good old Empedoclean alchemy you get players who want Titanium Elementals or gates to the Plane of Elemental Platinum. :D
crimsonwolf 03-08-07, 09:18 AM	lol you totally missed the point lol that was dealing with the "experet " topic poster
Bluehero 03-08-07, 09:44 PM	If you wanted a chemistry version you could consider the classic elements to be states of matter. Water represents all liquid, earth represents all solids, air represents gasses, and fire represents plasma or energy.
Bob the Efreet 03-09-07, 05:01 PM	If you wanted a chemistry version you could consider the classic elements to be states of matter. Water represents all liquid, earth represents all solids, air represents gasses, and fire represents plasma or energy. What about Bose-Einstein condensates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose-Einstein_condensate)? Don't we need a fifth element to handle that? Or am I just putting too much physics into D&D? ;)
Romtos 03-10-07, 03:34 AM	What about Bose-Einstein condensates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose-Einstein_condensate)? Don't we need a fifth element to handle that? Or am I just putting too much physics into D&D? ;) I'm pretty sure that's only one of two possible condensates. Maybe some sort of twin-planes? (Twin Kingdoms of Bytopia? :P )
Warforged Goblin 03-10-07, 08:40 AM	http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html lol this is so much like the argument on the boards now adays about katans how they cut and everything else from guns to how armor should protect pepole. Meh, who cares? I'm still gonna try and make the stats for Mercury Elementals...
Zonhin 03-10-07, 04:15 PM	Of course you're all forgetting about the elemental planes of, according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_of_matter)... Quantum Halls, Quantum Spin Halls, Fermionic Condensates, Supersolids, Superfluids, amorphous solids, Liquid Crystals, Supercritcal Fluids, Colloids, Degenerate Matter, Electron Degenerate Matter, Neutronium, Strange matter, Quark-Gluon Plasma, Weakly Symmetric Matter, and Strongly symmetric matter. Wow. That would make for some complicated inner planes.
Bob the Efreet 03-10-07, 04:46 PM	I'm pretty sure that's only one of two possible condensates. Maybe some sort of twin-planes? (Twin Kingdoms of Bytopia? :P ) I did leave out fermionic condensates. I always seem to forget about those.
Doom_Linnorm 03-11-07, 05:10 AM	Now take a look at the next strip and you'll see a funny little retort. Gues that elf isn't so worthless at all. Rock Paper Scissors man!