Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Infinitum 03-23-07, 05:09 PM	In the DMG and d20 website, I see Nerull as being a Greater Power. How is it, when his followers are mostly sociopathic killers (which aren't exactly common) can he become so powerful? What makes him among the most powerful gods of the realms?
Shemeska the Marauder 03-23-07, 05:17 PM	In the DMG and d20 website, I see Nerull as being a Greater Power. How is it, when his followers are mostly sociopathic killers (which aren't exactly common) can he become so powerful? What makes him among the most powerful gods of the realms? Because a god's power comes from more than explicit worship by devoted followers. Nerull is feared. That alone will give him some measure of power in the form of a faith of sorts, resonance with his portfolio. But beyond that, because of that fear, normal people, good people, will whisper a prayer to him, say his name and make a gesture, offer a small bit of something to the Reaper in order not to honor him, but to stave away his attention. Nerull grows powerful on people placating him so that he won't turn his attention their way. Though FWIW, Nerull while seriously powerful, isn't the most powerful of gods of death (he's only really worshipped on a single world, unlike Arawn, Osiris, Pluto, etc). He's very much playing second fiddle on his home layer of Carceri (to Apomps the god/creator of the Demodands). That said, I would not want to get on his bad side, more so than any of those others save Apomps. Not a pleasant fellow Nerull.
Kain Darkwind 03-23-07, 05:53 PM	Didn't Gygax have Nerull basically pimp all the Lower Planes Lords, including Anthraxus, in his Gord novels? His avatar was known as Infestix or something like that....
Shemeska the Marauder 03-23-07, 06:05 PM	Didn't Gygax have Nerull basically pimp all the Lower Planes Lords, including Anthraxus, in his Gord novels? His avatar was known as Infestix or something like that.... Something goofy like that. His Gord books are a pretty radical departure from the D&D planes as developed from 1e onwards.
Mirtek 03-23-07, 07:01 PM	AFAIK Nerull is a multispheric power. Something like "Nerull doesn't care about [forgot deity at the moment] meddling with his plans on Oerth, because he is reaping his grim harvest from innumerable worlds and thus the events on a single world like Oerth are not overly important to him" was written somewhere, wasn't it?
WarDragon 03-23-07, 07:10 PM	Even if he is only on one world (which I don't think the default pantheon are), he could still be more personally powerful than gods with wider worship bases.
ripvanwormer 03-23-07, 08:16 PM	AFAIK Nerull is a multispheric power. Something like "Nerull doesn't care about [forgot deity at the moment] meddling with his plans on Oerth, because he is reaping his grim harvest from innumerable worlds and thus the events on a single world like Oerth are not overly important to him" was written somewhere, wasn't it? Yes. From the 2e Greyhawk supplement Iuz the Evil. The exact quote is: "luz hates and fears Nerull. Many of the Hierarchs served The Reaper, and luz fears the wrath of the sickle-wielding one. Iuz knows rationally that Nerull is unlikely to act directly because of the loss of one small land in the many worlds where he reaps his grim harvests, but still luz fears." [page 6] Nerull's counterpart Pelor is a multi-spheric deity as well; his demigoddess servant Mayaheine was from a world other than Oerth. Of the other gods of Oerth, Celestian, Trithereon, and St. Cuthbert are popular throughout the planes, but most of the other Greyhawk deities (the Olman/Central American pantheon excluded) are single-sphere only.
ripvanwormer 03-23-07, 08:17 PM	AFAIK Nerull is a multispheric power. Something like "Nerull doesn't care about [forgot deity at the moment] meddling with his plans on Oerth, because he is reaping his grim harvest from innumerable worlds and thus the events on a single world like Oerth are not overly important to him" was written somewhere, wasn't it? Yes. From the 2e Greyhawk supplement Iuz the Evil. The exact quote is: "luz hates and fears Nerull. Many of the Hierarchs [of the Horned Society, which Iuz conquered] served The Reaper, and luz fears the wrath of the sickle-wielding one. Iuz knows rationally that Nerull is unlikely to act directly because of the loss of one small land in the many worlds where he reaps his grim harvests, but still luz fears." [page 6] Nerull's counterpart Pelor is a multi-spheric deity as well; his demigoddess servant Mayaheine was from a world other than Oerth. Of the other gods of Oerth, Celestian, Trithereon, and St. Cuthbert are popular on the planes due to the patronage of various factions and groups of planar travelers, but most of the other Greyhawk deities (the Olman/Central American pantheon excluded) are single-sphere only. There's a (somewhat metagame) argument that the "core" gods in the PHb are all multi-spheric, if only because their presence in the core rules means they appear in many homebrew campaigns and official references to places that don't fit on Oerth. Wee Jas and Pelor are worshiped in the Earth of the d20 Modern Urban Arcana setting, and there are references to Shadowswyfts worshiping Fharlanghn and bariaurs worshiping Ehlonna. With the latter two references, however, I imagine they're actually worshiping different deities with similar portfolios. Boccob might really be the primary patron of the mercanes, but I'm dubious; perhaps it's another god of magic, or the unanthropomorphic concept of magic itself.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-23-07, 09:50 PM	Yes. From the 2e Greyhawk supplement Iuz the Evil I stand corrected :)
sciborg2 03-25-07, 09:02 PM	Though FWIW, Nerull while seriously powerful, isn't the most powerful of gods of death (he's only really worshipped on a single world, unlike Arawn, Osiris, Pluto, etc). Doesn't the 3e MotP imply if not state that Nerull rules Carceri, being the being at the centermost position? Mind you, I like to keep these power levels in contention...
Taeldrin Laesrash 03-25-07, 09:11 PM	I figured that Nerull gained strength from not only being a multispheric power, he's also a divine representation of a major concept/action in the multiverse. Nerull is possibly the most powerful aspect of the Power (Said major concept) of death.
ripvanwormer 03-25-07, 09:46 PM	Doesn't the 3e MotP imply if not state that Nerull rules Carceri, being the being at the centermost position? Nah, the ruler of Carceri would be better placed on the first layer, so they could control the passages to the inner shells. The deeper you go, the less you control; the ruler of Cathrys can control who gets to Minethys from the outside or who gets to Othrys from the inside, but has no say over who goes between Othrys and the neighboring planes. From Agathys, all you can do is prevent people from escaping to Porphatys. The center's a terrible position from a control standpoint, but good from a defensive standpoint, shielded as you are by five other shells. Someone in Agathys is either a prisoner or an agoraphobe, but not the ruler of the plane. Apomps is a little different; he dwells in Agathys, but he has minions on every other layer. By controlling all the layers, he might indeed be said to rule Carceri (though there really aren't enough demodands to control the entire infinite plane, so Apomps is just a prisoner/agoraphobe). Agathys by itself, though, is not the key to ruling Carceri. If anything, Othrys is. Nerull is possibly the most powerful aspect of the Power (Said major concept) of death. He's powerful, but I don't think there's any basis for claiming he's the most powerful. Even on Oerth, Wee Jas and Mictlantecuhtli have as much control over the concept of death as he does. On other worlds, Hades, Siva, Izanami, and Ala are all greater, multispheric deities.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-25-07, 09:59 PM	Doesn't the 3e MotP imply if not state that Nerull rules Carceri, being the being at the centermost position? Mind you, I like to keep these power levels in contention... What Rip said, but it's worth noting that the authors of the MotP weren't allowed to overtly use any non-Grayhawk gods, so of course Nerull's importance in Carceri is promoted, none of the competing deities could really be discussed.
Mirtek 03-26-07, 12:21 PM	Nah, the ruler of Carceri would be better placed on the first layer, so they could control the passages to the inner shells. The deeper you go, the less you control; the ruler of Cathrys can control who gets to Minethys from the outside or who gets to Othrys from the inside, but has no say over who goes between Othrys and the neighboring planes. From Agathys, all you can do is prevent people from escaping to Porphatys. The center's a terrible position from a control standpoint, but good from a defensive standpoint, shielded as you are by five other shells. Someone in Agathys is either a prisoner or an agoraphobe, but not the ruler of the plane. Maybe Asmodeus should considerung switching places with Bel :D
ripvanwormer 03-26-07, 05:31 PM	Maybe Asmodeus should consider switching places with Bel... Definitely not. The difference between Baator and Carceri is that Baator is not primarily a prison plane. Its inhabitants are able to cross layers as they're ordered to in order to. In Carceri, each layer is a separate prison; those in the second layer are doubly imprisoned, those in the third layer triply so. Carceri, as a prison plane, has a power structure somewhat inverted from what is typical (though Pandemonium is to some extent the same way); those deeper have less effective power than those in shallower layers, because their imprisonment is more thorough. They are more successively more cut off from the other planes. Baator, in contrast, has more than one route to the other planes. Stygia, for example, is as exposed to the other Lower Planes as Avernus is through the River Styx. Even if Dispater was actively attempting to prevent Mammon from influencing the multiverse beyond Minauros - and he is not - Mammon could equally easily send his influence through Stygia, or even through the tributaries of the Styx in his own layer. He also has any number of portals that he can create on his own. Those in Carceri do not have that luxury. Finally, there's the primary point I made in my previous post where I contrasted Nerull's situation with that of Apomps. Apomps has thousands of minions on every layer of Carceri, which means his position in the deepest layer is less of a problem than it is for Nerull, who lacks positions of strength on the shallower layers of the plane. Asmodeus is in the same boat as Apomps in this, only more so because he has enough devils to completely dominate his plane, where Apomps only has enough to bully people. Nerull, I should emphasize, is not a prisoner of his plane. Nobody banished him there; he's there because he likes the atmosphere. Unlike Malar and the titans, he can and does leave at will. However, neither is he Carceri's ruler. If he was, as a single god without an entire race of fiends under his control, he could rule it more effectively from Othrys. This is due to the unique nature and structure of his plane.
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0 03-26-07, 11:45 PM	As a cleric of Pelor, I walk in the room, lift up my holy symbol, and.... TURN UNDEAD!
Infinitum 03-27-07, 06:38 AM	Be gone mortal, before your body is shredded and your soul consumed by Death itself. Even Pelor can not save you.
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0 03-27-07, 10:50 AM	Damn, my holy symbol must be off the fritz again.
PunkRockBard 03-29-07, 11:11 AM	I would say that Apomps has more influence in Carceri itself than Nerull. Then again, the Yugoloths are still in that war with the Demodands for Carceri, right? In my little homebrewed world....the Yugoloths have part of the first layer, and the fifth layer of acidic oceans (forget the name). While we are on the subject..... Yugoloths likely rule all four layers on Gehenna. Likely the first layer of Hades....what about Niflheim and Pluton? Do those belong more to Hel and Greek Hades...or is that considered 'loth territory? I personally consider it Yugoloth territory also.....if we are going along with the expansion to Gehenna....opposed to migration.