Post/Author/DateTime	Post
locustechpriest 05-10-07, 10:30 PM	Where do souls come from, and why do they go through all of those transitions? I am trying to piece together a coherent philosophy on the soul (as it pertains to DnD). Can you help me out here? Some of the clues I am going off of are these: - Moradin is called the "Soul Forger" (methinks), which could indicate that the souls of mortals are indeed crafted by the gods (not limited to Moradin) on a continual basis. - One cannot be resurected/reincarnated after your natural lifetime is up. My theory is that souls must be pure to be born into the Material Plane as living beings, but degrade quickly therafter. They become less of a pure amalgamation of elements, and eventually lose their bond to the Material Plane (thus a natural death). The Outter Planes will accept souls of suitable makeup, but cannot form the pure bond of a mortal soul to a body (thus Outsiders). All of this is highly hypothetical, and I am looking for any canon lore on the nature of the soul. Many thanks in advance!
Gray Richardson 05-10-07, 11:51 PM	Souls come from the Positive Energy Plane, from a place called, if I recall correctly "The Bastion of Unborn Souls". This is detailed somewhat in the module The Bastion of Broken Souls.
TVLLestatTVL 05-11-07, 12:14 AM	Been reading the tyrants of the nine hells recently. And the start of it tells of a tale where there was only chaos. And then God's sprang out of the chaos so that there could be balance. The God's then made the Celestials to help combat the dark forces. And finally while the never ending battle still raged on the Deities made mortals to grow and develop the land they decided to put them on (Material Plane) The Deities soon found out their mortals were accidently uncovering Devils portals. So i'm assuming the souls come from the Deities. And if not Deities use some magic, realm, or other form to call upon, or create a soul. As always the stories very. None of them are wrong. And it's what the DM decides how souls are created.
Lina_Inverse 05-11-07, 01:01 AM	Canonically souls are formed from the positive energy plane as a natural aspect of the universe, deities deal with the soul after death not before birth. Outsiders don't have a body/soul divide like mortals, having a body which is also there soul. Such is the nature of being an outsider.
TVLLestatTVL 05-11-07, 01:19 AM	Canonically souls are formed from the positive energy plane as a natural aspect of the universe, deities deal with the soul after death not before birth. Outsiders don't have a body/soul divide like mortals, having a body which is also there soul. Such is the nature of being an outsider. I was just merely stating what it said in the nine hells book i'm reading. And in that book it stated that the Deities made the mortals. This was before Asmodeous's fall into Baator. And not saying that after these events or somewhere inbetween that it wasn't based off the Positive Material plane. I wouldn't call anyones opinion wrong on the way things are created. Because this is an imaginary game. Trying to go strictly by the books though. You probably have the right answer. I don't know i've never read the part about the Bastion of unborn souls on the Positive Plane nor do I know what book it's in. D&D history varies a bit in some books.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-11-07, 01:33 AM	I was just merely stating what it said in the nine hells book i'm reading. And in that book it stated that the Deities made the mortals. That bit of the mythology presented in FC:II is also repeatedly contradicted by a number of other sources. In the grand scheme of things, mortals in general existed prior to the formation of deities in D&D, and the earliest outsiders (fiends, celestials, etc) appeared well before them (aasimon/angels only were made much later as deific servants). FC:II spins a nice little myth, but it conveniantly ignores a lot of other (pre)history from the rest of the planes. Take it with a hefty grain of salt ;)
Shemeska the Marauder 05-11-07, 01:36 AM	I should also point out something here: It's only -mortal- souls that generate within the positive energy plane. Outsiders that don't spawn from mortals / spawn directly from their plane etc seem outside of that cycle. The outer planes may be fed by a stream of mortal souls that originate in the positive energy plane, but they aren't dependant upon them, and they originated without them.
sciborg2 05-11-07, 02:22 AM	Where does it say outsiders are not dependent on the Positive?
Shemeska the Marauder 05-11-07, 02:30 AM	Where does it say outsiders are not dependent on the Positive? It's inferred. As the outer planes existed in an early form long before the influx of petitioners, or even the existance of the prime material, I wouldn't assume that the primal manifestations of alignment had any connection with the inner planes. They're too distant from one another metaphysically speaking.
sciborg2 05-11-07, 02:35 AM	I don't remember anything saying the Outer Planes existed before the Primes. If the Outer Planes are belief, then wouldn't they require sentience?
Shemeska the Marauder 05-11-07, 02:45 AM	I don't remember anything saying the Outer Planes existed before the Primes. If the Outer Planes are belief, then wouldn't they require sentience? It might have been inferred from the material in Hellbound, ie the fiend legends of the outer planes being pre-existant in some abstract, immaterial form before they sprung into a form that we might now recognize. However 3e has come out and stated pretty bluntly that an early form of the outer planes existed prior to mortals, and prior to the existance of the prime material (around the time of the Obyriths/Ancient Baatorians/Baernaloths). This goes against my original ideas on the topic, but I'm not against it really and I've run with it. The way I read it is that the outer planes, as raw concepts of alignment etc existed in primordial fashion as timeless, base functions of reality, like qualia of the Great Wheel's spiritual fabric. Certain concepts exist regardless of there being anyone to believe in them, though the manifest forms of such things might be unrecognizable to mortals, and indeed the earliest things on the lower planes are rather alien. This incarnation of the outer planes would have slowly grown and evolved, with the eventual influx of mortal belief adding to and molding the outer planes into the forms that we now more easily recognize (and prior to that they might have been stoked by fragments of belief filtering in from the inner planes).
Lina_Inverse 05-11-07, 02:52 AM	As the outer planes existed in an early form long before the influx of petitioners, or even the existance of the prime material, I wouldn't assume that the primal manifestations of alignment had any connection with the inner planes. They're too distant from one another metaphysically speaking. Bah the only part of the outer planes that should exist before mortals started dieing is the core of em. The 5 pure alignment concepts and the 9 alignments. Inner->Prime->Outer is the only way i can really see it coming. A bit moot really barring some reality shattering time travel....but hmmmm hey thats a good idea.
Gray Richardson 05-11-07, 03:03 AM	Raw souls originate in the Postive Energy Plane. The soul is born (incarnated) on the Material Plane. The soul is refined and tempered by mortal experience. The body dies and the soul passes into the Astral Plane. The soul is conducted through astral conduits to the outer planes. In the outer planes the soul is further distilled and rarefied through service to a god or ideal. When the soul is ready it merges with its god or the plane itself. This "souler" energy serves a variety of functions, from spontaneously forming new exemplars (perhaps souls that were not yet pure enough to completely sublimate into the plane), manifesting features of the plane, or providing energy to the god to grant spells to petitioners back on the Material Plane. Ultimately the outer planes channel the excess souler energy to another place entirely. Some believe this energy is channeled to a higher dimension, maybe the realms of the overgods, or perhaps through the Ordial plane (a hypothetical transitive plane that links the outer planes to the inner planes) back to the Positive Energy Plane to complete the circuit and start the journey all over again. There is a variant of this theory which holds that the spent souler energy makes its way through the ordial back to the Negative Energy Plane, in the same way that electricity travels from the positive cathode of a battery back to the negative anode (well, actually, in real life electricity travels from the negative end to the positive end, but lets not complicate things with real physics). This is the lowest energy state, after all "work" or useful "potential" has been exhausted from the soul-stuff, the state of highest entropy. Some see this circuit of souler energy as the motive force that drives the engine of the Great Wheel cosmos. But to apply the metaphor of an engine implies that some greater work or function is being performed. To what purpose the engine of the Great Wheel is working, we can only imagine. Perhaps the overgods know. Maybe it is just a natural process, seeking an equilibrium, and the universe will wind down when all the souls in the Positive Energy Plane are used up, their energy cycled successively through the Material, the Astral, the outer, and the Ordial planes down to the Negative Energy Plane. Perhaps the universe will expire when the total amount of "work" has been done and entropy has reached its maximum. The Negative Energy Plane will be very full in the end time, and its darkness may engulf the universe as the Great Wheel winds down to a halt--or possibly implodes, swallowing its own tale like a colossal ouroburos. Law will have won the final battle that day as the universe succumbs to a perpetual dark stillness--or if its fate is to implode into nothingness, Law will have achieved the ultimate "rule zero".
locustechpriest 05-11-07, 03:34 AM	Certain concepts exist regardless of there being anyone to believe in them, though the manifest forms of such things might be unrecognizable to mortals, and indeed the earliest things on the lower planes are rather alien. That is quite the Platonic concept. ;) It makes a great deal of sense to me, actually, and I like it quite a lot. It will probably find a place in my philosophy. As for the Positive Energy Plane: I forgot about that completely! I was going off on this tangent (in my mind, of course) about ether being the source of all things, but I could see positive energy having no small influence in this process. Is there any hint of there being a negative energy "shadow" passing in the opposite direction? Where is the balance if things flow in only one direction? Negative energy is, after all, much more than a simple vacuum. But that is just flavor. One last thing: Why can a soul not return to life in the material after a natural lifespan has been lived to its end?
Naderion 05-11-07, 06:15 AM	Gameplay-balance? :D It would make imortality too easy. Also, you get your body of the same age as it had when you died, so you would be rwsurrected into a body that has it's time running out, and it would die the very moment again.
WombleHunter 05-11-07, 07:55 AM	as the Great Wheel winds down to a halt--or possibly implodes, swallowing its own tale Heh. Fun.
locustechpriest 05-11-07, 02:56 PM	Uh huh. You answered "what happens", that was, however, not my question. I asked "why". Or rather, you did answer "why", but not in keeping with the flavor of my question, which is "philosophically". I hope this doesn't come off as overly rude, but I really do want to know.
ripvanwormer 05-11-07, 10:57 PM	As the Soulforger, Moradin doesn't create souls, anymore than a blacksmith creates metal. He only forges them. Petitioners and even living beings who come to his realm may be brought to his smithy and reforged into a more pleasing - more dwarflike, more Moradinlike - shape. Bastion of Broken Souls describes an ancient pact known as the Ban of the Unborn. It preceded the birth of the first gods, and forbids any gods from interfering with preincarnate souls in any way. One god who broke the pact was stripped of his divinity and imprisoned in Pandemonium. Note that reincarnation is possible, and not just with the spell; those who die may be reborn as infants in new mortal bodies. Their patron gods may decide to send them to live another life instead of keeping them in the Outer Planes (this generally happens only in cultures where the gods are confident their worshippers will continue to worship them in their next life). Alternatively, people can be reincarnated simply because they believe they will be. The afterlife, in many ways, is governed by belief, is made of belief - souls travel to their gods if they believe they're supposed to, or reincarnate if that's what they believe, or travel to the Outer Plane that best reflects their beliefs and actions in life, or simply dissolve if they believe only nothingness awaits them.
ArcTan 05-11-07, 11:53 PM	That bit of the mythology presented in FC:II is also repeatedly contradicted by a number of other sources. In the grand scheme of things, mortals in general existed prior to the formation of deities in D&D, and the earliest outsiders (fiends, celestials, etc) appeared well before them (aasimon/angels only were made much later as deific servants). FC:II spins a nice little myth, but it conveniantly ignores a lot of other (pre)history from the rest of the planes. Take it with a hefty grain of salt ;) Of course, it's always up to you what you consider canon, and, as always, D&D 3e writers have no obligation to respect theories made up by earlier editions.
sciborg2 05-12-07, 02:20 AM	It does make a certain amount of sense to think of the Outer as elemental planes of alignment. I think it is somewhat obvious that the Alignment Wheel is a foundation of D&D itself. It also lends a means of separating exemplar lords from gods, the former being more akin to elementals as beings of pure alignment while gods represent the connection between raw concept (Plato's Realm of Ideas) and the 'mortal' (human from player persepctive) in worshippers.
ripvanwormer 05-12-07, 03:14 AM	Of course, it's always up to you what you consider canon, and, as always, D&D 3e writers have no obligation to respect theories made up by earlier editions. Hell, they often don't respect theories made up in the current edition. There's no real "canon" in the authoritative or restrictive sense in D&D at all. But there is a "canon" in the sense of a body of work, and that's not subjective. The material exists - whether you like it or accept it is another matter, but it exists whether you like it or not. Edition doesn't come into play here, unless you're specifically referring to "3e canon" as opposed to "D&D canon." Planescape was ambiguous about what order the planes were created in, though there were suggestions that the Elemental Planes were first, then the Material Plane, and then the Outer Planes were formed from the beliefs of the Prime. It's only 3.5 with the Fiendish Codex I that anyone's been specific about the Abyss existing before the birth of mortals. Though, yes, inferences can be made regarding how late fiends learn to create more of their kind from mortal souls in the Hellbound timeline.
TVLLestatTVL 05-12-07, 04:16 AM	What book is the topic about The Bastion of Unborn Souls in? I'd like to research that further.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-12-07, 04:31 AM	What book is the topic about The Bastion of Unborn Souls in? I'd like to research that further. In the 3e module 'Bastion of Broken Souls'. It is also touched upon in 'Magic of Incarnum' I believe.
sciborg2 05-12-07, 12:04 PM	Bah, arguing over canon is pointless. I think its more important to acknowledge the different views different publications have, so DMs can choose as they desire.
locustechpriest 05-12-07, 04:19 PM	All right, I guess that comes as enough ambiguous, semi-canonical inspiration to set me off on an informed worldbuilding quest. Thank you, to all who gave aid. :)
Terraneaux 05-13-07, 10:35 PM	The way I work it is that the elemental planes are first, followed by the material, and when life arose things like the obyriths and whatever other equivalents arose from the semi-sentient ravings of less neurologically developed life in the subsequently formed outer planes. When dragons, humanoids, and all other sorts of life arose, the creatures formed of more concrete and definite philosophical concepts arose. In that sense, 'mortals' in FC: I could refer specifically to *intelligent* mortals. It also aids us in understanding things like Obox-ob and that parasitic obyrith that lays eggs in people. They are literally formed from the dreams and aspirations of arthropods, hence their general inability to relate to sentient beings on a meaningful level other than "you go insane and die."
Joni-san 05-16-07, 08:33 AM	I have a vague recollection of seeing a theory of a three part soul. The first part is the memory, the part we contact when using Speak With Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithDead.htm). The second part is the belief-centered soul, which goes to the outer plane closest to it's old self. The third part is the one that reincarnates, according to Godsman/Dustman beliefs. I'm sorry if this was vague and incomplete, but I cannot remember the source.
sciborg2 05-19-07, 04:14 PM	Likely either Complete Divine from 3e or On Hallowed Ground from Planescape. I recall explanations of the soul's migrations in both.
Adrez Nesnsid 06-14-07, 06:36 PM	Been reading the tyrants of the nine hells recently. And the start of it tells of a tale where there was only chaos. And then God's sprang out of the chaos so that there could be balance. The God's then made the Celestials to help combat the dark forces. And finally while the never ending battle still raged on the Deities made mortals to grow and develop the land they decided to put them on (Material Plane) The Deities soon found out their mortals were accidently uncovering Devils portals. So i'm assuming the souls come from the Deities. And if not Deities use some magic, realm, or other form to call upon, or create a soul. As always the stories very. None of them are wrong. And it's what the DM decides how souls are created. What about the chaotic and/or evil gods. (and Why does everybody always overlook them)
ArcTan 06-16-07, 04:22 PM	FWIW, my own personal preference is that the Prime Material existed before all things and is the only real universe (just like in real life!) and that the Inner and Outer Planes alike only existed as a result of mortal expectations and belief. (Mortals tried to divide up the physical world they saw into "elements", and so there are four Elemental Planes to try to meet their expectations. Mortals tried to categorize purpose and causation into different kinds of "alignment", and so there's a wheel of Outer Planes to try to meet their expectations.) The advantage of this is that you can have major shifts in the structure of the planes -- replace the four classical Greek elements with the five classical Chinese elements, replace the Outer Planes with the Spirit World, etc. -- without having to justify how the fundamental principles on which the universe is objectively based somehow vary from cosmology to cosmology -- it all depends on the social context, man. It also means you don't have to justify the silly and obviously false presuppositions of D&D -- that the four classical elements really are the basis of physical reality and the nine D&D alignments really are the basis of moral reality -- as objectively true presuppositions about the world -- they're just the way people *think* things work in *this* world. ("Prime", after all, as a lot of people forget, does mean "first".)
sciborg2 06-17-07, 12:23 PM	It also means you don't have to justify the silly and obviously false presuppositions of D&D -- that the four classical elements really are the basis of physical reality and the nine D&D alignments really are the basis of moral reality -- as objectively true presuppositions about the world -- they're just the way people *think* things work in *this* world. I find such alchemy wedded to theology more workable for D&D. The results are vastly similar but different enough to make fantasy feel more like fantasy...of course, YMMV.