Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Carolan 03-07-07, 09:27 AM	Who would win in an all out fight amongst the planes if each plane could have one representative. My money is on Asmodeus beating Zaphkiel in the final
I_am_an_undead 03-07-07, 09:33 AM	I'd say Pun-Pun or the Lady of Pain. Pun-Pun beat anything with stats (so it includes Asmodeus), but Her Serenity beats anything in Sigil, period. Heck, she doesn't even need stats to beat you up.:P
Rogue Shadows 03-07-07, 09:37 AM	The Dungeon Master. (SEE Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad for more information on the Dungeon Master. Sort of. "And how goes your cosmos, Ao?")
Keoki 03-07-07, 09:52 AM	The Dungeon Master's Significant Other.
DraconsNighthawk 03-07-07, 09:59 AM	The Dungeon Master's Significant Other. Agreed. Lady of Pain, Ao, Pun-Pun, and Muten-ryu-senin, and DM would all be at the top of the list, though in the end it most likely be Pun-Pun sadily.
Sorcen_Anenooata 03-07-07, 10:02 AM	The Dungeon Master's Significant Other. Thirded. I believe there would be no way that any one of the planar exemplars would ultimately win. Aside from that though, my money is on Asmodeus as well. He'll likely win through better strategy and ruthlessness, whereas Zaphkiel would be just as strategic but he would show mercy and mercy does not win wars. In my campaign world, I'm going with Sorcen, who stole the throne of hell from Asmodeus through a semi long story and is currently trying to institute his TheoThanatos policy, death to all gods, then after that he'll take over the rest of the mutliverse.
unfortunate_crow 03-07-07, 10:03 AM	In the time before history, there was the first one. One with no beginning and no end, and it hath been said that he breathed life into the first of the gods. He gaveth without cost to drink from the spring of the water of life, and hath lived a thousand-score lives. It was he, who gave birth to the heavens and the firmament, and crafted the mountains that skirt the skies of the east. The oceans poured forth from his eyes, and he thus filled them with life. Each seedling he placed within the earth, and nurtured to fruition. And when this was done, he gave life to Men, Elves, Orc, and all manner of creatures. By his will, the greatest of creatures, mortal and unending, breath, or cease to be. And to ye, he shall be your Master, and to he, ye shall be his Player...
AngelofCthulhu 03-07-07, 10:39 AM	Assuming we stay in The DnD universe (so no DM) I would go for Bolothamogg. He is t3h aw3s0m3!
Rogue Shadows 03-07-07, 10:46 AM	The DM is in the D&D universe. Again, look at Crucible. Hmm. Assuming that the Dungeon Master is just making his puppets dance for his amusement... One of the overdeities. The Highgod, Ao, Her Serenity...take your pick. Possibly Asmodeus, but I doubt it. He doesn't have the stats to stand up to most lesser deities, let alone an overdeity.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-07-07, 10:57 AM	It's impossible to say, but there's no objective scale of power. Beings like Ao may be effectively all powerful, but their power is limited to a specific sphere of influence (Ao has absolutely no power outside of the prime material world of Toril and the other worlds that orbit its sun). Other beings are powerful, but largely undefined in terms of just what they can or can't do, like The Lady of Pain. Some beings like Center-of-All we only know of in name. And what about beings like archfiends who can reshape entirely infinities in their home plane, manhandle gods, etc but who elsewhere in the multiverse don't possess the same ability? Power is subjective.
Witch 03-07-07, 10:59 AM	It's impossible to say, but there's no objective scale of power. Beings like Ao may be effectively all powerful, but their power is limited to a specific sphere of influence (Ao has absolutely no power outside of the prime material world of Toril and the other worlds that orbit its sun). Other beings are powerful, but largely undefined in terms of just what they can or can't do, like The Lady of Pain. Some beings like Center-of-All we only know of in name. And what about beings like archfiends who can reshape entirely infinities in their home plane, manhandle gods, etc but who elsewhere in the multiverse don't possess the same ability? Power is subjective. Your conclusion doesn't follow from your argument. What you've proven is that power can differ from location to location, not that it's not objective.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-07-07, 11:31 AM	Your conclusion doesn't follow from your argument. What you've proven is that power can differ from location to location, not that it's not objective. Power differs depending on location, and there's no single method to objectively measure power. Not everything can be stuck into a stat block for a battle of the numbers. Power very much is subjective.
Carolan 03-07-07, 11:43 AM	What I really wanted to know is Are the alignment planes balanced? or will one side eventually win out against another. If they are balanced then what is the point of the struggle/life. If not then which is the most powerful, The neutral powers? to preserve the balance
Millennium 03-07-07, 12:24 PM	Your conclusion doesn't follow from your argument. What you've proven is that power can differ from location to location, not that it's not objective. It does, however, mean that you can't define 'the most powerful being in the universe' in a vacuum. At a bare minimum you also need to define the battlefield where the question is to be decided, and then the answer might not necessarily apply anywhere else.
RobbyPants 03-07-07, 12:28 PM	I'd say if we weren't including the DM, so as to only include all PCs and NPCs, then it would be Pun Pun. As I_am_an_undead mentioned, Pun Pun beats anything with stats.
Kain Darkwind 03-07-07, 12:40 PM	It does, however, mean that you can't define 'the most powerful being in the universe' in a vacuum. At a bare minimum you also need to define the battlefield where the question is to be decided, and then the answer might not necessarily apply anywhere else. Which is as true for cosmic demon princes and ladies of pain as it is for mere mermaids and fire elementals. Although if you set the fight in outer space, you would indeed define 'the most powerful being in the universe in a vacuum" :D As for Pun-Pun, I thought he was from the Material Plane and would be ineligible for a planar throw-down.
The Serge7 03-07-07, 12:45 PM	Who the Hell is Pun-Pun?
Kain Darkwind 03-07-07, 12:52 PM	Who the Hell is Pun-Pun? A mechanical horror based on manipulating an oversight in the rules to have infinite ability scores. Completely never intended to exist. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801
crimsonwolf 03-07-07, 12:56 PM	HE IS YOUR LORD AND GOD NOW BOW DOWN TO THE KOBOLD THAT SHALL RULE YOU THROU MUNCHINIZED WARFARE THE EXPANDES ACROSSED THE GALAXY'S OF 3.5 AND 3.0 BOW TO THE THE LORD OF MIN MAXING FOR HE IS THE KOBOLD OF TRUE POWEER ALL HAIL THE PUN PUN (crowds yell out) PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PPUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUNPUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUNUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN PUN
ripvanwormer 03-07-07, 12:56 PM	The DM is in the D&D universe. Again, look at Crucible. I would argue that the entity to whom Ao reports is not necessarily the DM. Why can't there be higher levels of being beyond the overpowers without breaking the fourth wall?
crimsonwolf 03-07-07, 01:02 PM	becuse dnD lore deonst go that far and seriously I want to rp demi gods...(hijack thread moment) okay done
Melpomene 03-07-07, 01:06 PM	The Elder Gods should also appear on a list of powerful dieties. When your portfolio includes (Space, Time), (Existing), (Non-Existance, Nothingness) you can pretty much write your own cheque, so to speak.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-07-07, 01:15 PM	The Elder Gods should also appear on a list of powerful dieties. When your portfolio includes (Space, Time), (Existing), (Non-Existance, Nothingness) you can pretty much write your own cheque, so to speak. They're not a part of D&D however. They were part of the cosmology of the mystara/basic D&D game, but outside of AD&D/3.x pilfering some of its ideas from time to time, they're different games without any continuity between them.
ripvanwormer 03-07-07, 01:39 PM	They're not a part of D&D however. They were part of the cosmology of the mystara/basic D&D game, but outside of AD&D/3.x pilfering some of its ideas from time to time, they're different games without any continuity between them. You're thinking of the Old Ones. I have no idea what the Elder Gods are, but they aren't from Basic D&D. Melpomene may be thinking of Lovecraft's works.
ArcTan 03-07-07, 01:58 PM	I'd say if we weren't including the DM, so as to only include all PCs and NPCs, then it would be Pun Pun. As I_am_an_undead mentioned, Pun Pun beats anything with stats. Of course, the reason Pun-Pun doesn't actually exist in any D&D universe or game is because of the power of the DM.
ArcTan 03-07-07, 01:59 PM	You're thinking of the Old Ones. I have no idea what the Elder Gods are, but they aren't from Basic D&D. Melpomene may be thinking of Lovecraft's works. Elder Evils, from Lords of Madness?
Melpomene 03-07-07, 02:52 PM	It's a little of both, or all, or however many points there are. Wizards owns Lovecraft, so his works do creep in. The rulers of the out-realm, the Far Realm, the lands of Beyond, the space between. They are both the Elder Evils from LoM and the Elder Gods of Lovecraft. In any event, to use the previous examples of scope, they have the biggest scope of any gods. They might have less indevidual power within a realm than another god, but they have dominion over the largest territory (all of everything; outside of time, space, or knowing).
Mirannan 03-07-07, 03:02 PM	My money would be on Azathoth - and he has been in D&D (first edition, Deities and Demigods, first edition before the Chaosium lawsuit). Or possibly Ptah.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-07-07, 03:24 PM	You're thinking of the Old Ones. I have no idea what the Elder Gods are, but they aren't from Basic D&D. Indeed. Whoops :)
Rickiel 03-07-07, 03:29 PM	I think that whomever would win this throw-down would have to have PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERand live in a little-itty-bitty-tiny-stuffy-cramped living space. :)
Shemeska the Marauder 03-07-07, 03:34 PM	It's a little of both, or all, or however many points there are. Wizards owns Lovecraft, so his works do creep in. The rulers of the out-realm, the Far Realm, the lands of Beyond, the space between. They are both the Elder Evils from LoM and the Elder Gods of Lovecraft. No, not really. WotC doesn't hold any copyrights to Lovecraft's work. A large portion of HPL's material is public domain, with a slim portion that he ghostwrote or collaborated with other authors being held by various descendants of those persons. Chaosium holds the rights for the use of Lovecraft's creations in an RPG, and WotC only published d20 Call of Cthulhu in cooperation with them as a one shot publication by license. While the Far Realm of D&D is heavily inspired by Lovecraft's work, none of D&D's far realm beings are those from HPL's works, and WotC can't use them. The Elder Gods of HPL and others' works are not the Aboleth's so-called Elder Evils. In any event, to use the previous examples of scope, they have the biggest scope of any gods. They might have less indevidual power within a realm than another god, but they have dominion over the largest territory (all of everything; outside of time, space, or knowing). Again not really. They're powerful beings from the Far Realm, and things from the Far Realm don't have any intrinsic link to the concepts of the Great Wheel. They're powerful critters from another multiverse, and largely undefined in what they are or aren't capable of. Space, Time, Knowledge, etc are all concepts we can rationalize with, and not all concepts may be shared between those two distant realities.
ArcTan 03-07-07, 03:40 PM	It's a little of both, or all, or however many points there are. Wizards owns Lovecraft, so his works do creep in. Uh, no. No, they absolutely do not. Lovecraft died long enough ago that his works have passed into the public domain, so that anyone who wants to can reference his stuff in their writing. The copyright on Lovecraft's work is more or less gone -- anyone can, and will, and does reference huge chunks of Lovecraft in all kinds of media, from Metallica songs like "Call of Ktulu" to id software's Quake to that cute little "Hello Cthulhu" webcomic. The *trademark* to an RPG explicitly based on the Cthulhu mythos is a different matter, and currently Chaosium reserves the right to publish an RPG actually called "Call of Cthulhu". Anyone who wants to publish an RPG that takes place in the Cthulhu mythos can, but you have to square it with Chaosium if you're going to name your game "Call of Cthulhu" or something similar, because they're protecting the brand of their particular game. TSR published a special thank-you note to Chaosium back when they included the Cthulhu Mythos Pantheon in the old Deities and Demigods, and eventually backed off from that idea because they didn't want to create the impression of a official relationship with Chaosium. WotC has had an okay relationship with Chaosium, even getting the license to print a d20 version of their Call of Cthulhu game, but they didn't have to ask Chaosium at all to simply reference Lovecraft in the Lords of Madness supplement. (They may have done so anyway, but legally they were in the clear not to.) The rulers of the out-realm, the Far Realm, the lands of Beyond, the space between. They are both the Elder Evils from LoM and the Elder Gods of Lovecraft. Is there really a confirmed connection between LoM's Elder Evils and the Far Realm? I didn't think there was one. It's not exactly the same thing, anyway. Elder Evils ruled Earth, the Material Plane, before the rise of mortal races and their gods. The rulers of the Far Realm merely come from outside our universe entirely and view it with utter disregard and disdain. It's the difference between Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth, what Chaosium calls the difference between Great Old Ones and Outer Gods. In any event, to use the previous examples of scope, they have the biggest scope of any gods. They might have less indevidual power within a realm than another god, but they have dominion over the largest territory (all of everything; outside of time, space, or knowing). Well, no -- I mean, Cthulhu is described as having his powers blocked by something as mundane as the ocean's depths, and while he's sunk under the ocean he only has power over the immediately vicinity of the city of R'lyeh. Yeah, the Great Old Ones are powerful, but half the point of the stories is that they are also strongly limited in bizarre, hard-to-explain ways -- if that weren't true, our civilization and our world couldn't exist at all.
ArcTan 03-07-07, 03:42 PM	While the Far Realm of D&D is heavily inspired by Lovecraft's work, none of D&D's far realm beings are those from HPL's works, and WotC can't use them. The Elder Gods of HPL and others' works are not the Aboleth's so-called Elder Evils. They did openly admit in the text that the Elder Evils are directly inspired by Lovecraft's Great Old Ones, though, and even pointed out which Elder Evil was based on which Great Old One.
ArcTan 03-07-07, 03:47 PM	My money would be on Azathoth - and he has been in D&D (first edition, Deities and Demigods, first edition before the Chaosium lawsuit). Or possibly Ptah. There wasn't a lawsuit. There was a potential lawsuit, but it seems pretty clear now -- after various tussles over the actual state of the Lovecraft IP -- that Chaosium would've lost. This is especially because it really isn't clear that just because Chaosium had the right to make RPGs that were specifically *about* Cthulhu or Melnibone meant that they had the sole rights to *mention* Cthulhu or Melnibone in a general sourcebook about pantheons from different real and fictional cultures. But they did come to a gentleman's agreement where TSR printed that thank-you message to Chaosium for a long time, before they got tired of doing that and just took the Cthulhu Mythos out. In any case, I recall the 1e presentation of Azathoth as not being intrinsically more powerful than any of the lead deities of other pantheons, like Ra or Zeus. It's just that everything in the Cthulhu Mythos is portrayed in more grandiose terms. (Outside of D&D terms, if you actually believe in the Cthulhu Mythos you would believe that of *course* Azathoth is more powerful than any other deity, because one of the things that the Cthulhu Mythos says is that human deities are mere illusionary inventions of human cultures with no power to withstand the things from Beyond. But that's from one particular perspective.) Really, I think this argument is silly. But going from what other people have been saying, whether you accept the fourth-wall-breaking explanation that Ao's Being of Light is "the DM" or not, the Being of Light is clearly some kind of over-overgod who's responsible for the whole multiverse and therefore more uber, by definition, than anyone or anything that D&D has ever statted up.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-07-07, 03:57 PM	Is there really a confirmed connection between LoM's Elder Evils and the Far Realm? I didn't think there was one. One of the Elder Evils, Piscaethes the Blood Queen, is from the Far Realms. She created the Aboleths (intentionally or not) but I don't believe that the other so-called Elder Evils are likewise from the Far Realm (but it would make sense if they are, even if they might not be concerned or even necessarily aware of the Aboleths). Piscaethes seems to make a habit of wandering through the deep ethereal, swimming between the Far Realm and other distant realities branched off from the trackless sea, like a bizarre sea turtle depositing eggs on foreign beaches. I find that kinda cool.
ripvanwormer 03-07-07, 04:23 PM	Bolothamogg appears to be the guardian force who exists to ensure that nothing from the Great Wheel cosmology taints the "true reality" of the Far Realm. It is even more closely associated with the Far Realm in Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss. Holashner and Shothotugg are explicitly made inhabitants of the Material Plane. They may be connected to the Far Realm, but no connection is confirmed. The Blood Queen "travels the currents of probability between infinite realities," which certainly sounds like a being who spends time in the Far Realm, at least in part, though it's possible she only seeds those realities that are hospitable to the aboleths, and the Far Realm is not one of them. With Y'Chak, there's no firm connection to the Far Realm. Evidently Y'Chak doesn't exist entirely (or at all) on the Material Plane, but whether its other plane of residence is the Far Realm is unclear. It does seem too closely interested with the development of civilizations on the Material Plane for that, but it might be an exception. It's associated with Hastur by James Jacobs, and Hastur (as the King in Yellow) was said to be a resident of the Far Realm in Dungeon #134.
spectralphoenix 03-07-07, 04:37 PM	What I really wanted to know is Are the alignment planes balanced? or will one side eventually win out against another. If they are balanced then what is the point of the struggle/life. If not then which is the most powerful, The neutral powers? to preserve the balance And as the arguements about location indicate, it's a bit of a moot point. The sum total of the infernal armies and the Nine may be more powerful than the Lady and the residents of Sigil "in a vacuum" but they could never beat the "home ground advantage" held by her Ladyship. Likewise the Lady couldn't (or perhaps merely wouldn't, you never can tell) take the battle to Nessus and take out Asmodeus in his home.
Witch 03-07-07, 05:28 PM	Power differs depending on location, and there's no single method to objectively measure power. Not everything can be stuck into a stat block for a battle of the numbers. Power very much is subjective. No, power is relative to other beings and location. That doesn't make it subjective at all. You can very much stick a beings personal power in a stat block. If you want, you'll need to say "when not inside Sigil, this decreases to X".
ripvanwormer 03-07-07, 05:28 PM	The various alignments are roughly balanced, but they continue to fluctuate in power. One moment, Law may have the lead, while the next Chaos may be ahead. The balance is not stable - it wobbles back and forth. Different things can trigger an advantage toward one side or the other. When one of the Outlands' gate-towns slides away from the Outlands, this represents a great victory for the plane that successfully grabs the town, and the Balance fluctuates accordingly. When a celestial falls from grace, or a fiend rises, that's a great victory, too. When the tanar'ri capture part of the lower planes from the baatezu, that's a great victory. When a unified kingdom falls into anarchy, the appropriate planes will benefit.
The Serge7 03-07-07, 06:27 PM	There isn't... At least in official WotC canon, there isn't.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-07-07, 08:26 PM	ahem ... Pun-pun is being challenged by Blingy the Psicrystal , right now on the CO Board. More to this point. Kerleth's Tower in Epic , has a 60th level Epic Spell : Ward on it. While a 60th level caster { which could be a manifester } , is not explicitly broken , one has to posit that the said 'caster' has to haw very closely to RAI. The caster already has Epic Spells ... 6 a day if they kept up their Spellcraft / Knowledge :rolleyes: . A CO or better , TO board interpretation of a 60th level caster , would require sloughing off infinite loop after infinite loop after infi ... do you see what I mean ? Another possibility is the Dream Plane. Flat 1% chance of some infinite horror / thingy popping up in the rest of cosmology. What do you think ?
Singer_of_the_Song 03-07-07, 08:56 PM	They did openly admit in the text that the Elder Evils are directly inspired by Lovecraft's Great Old Ones, though, and even pointed out which Elder Evil was based on which Great Old One. What are the Elder Evils? There's gonna be a book about them. Are they just new Lovecraftian critters like the Great Old Ones?
Shemeska the Marauder 03-07-07, 09:11 PM	What are the Elder Evils? There's gonna be a book about them. Are they just new Lovecraftian critters like the Great Old Ones? There's not much on them, and most of it comes from Lords of Madness. They're the name given to the group of gods (or godlike beings) worshipped by the Aboleths. Many or all of them seem to be from, or linked to, the Far Realm. Though if you want to get picky, they're neither necessarily Elder nor personifications of Evil. ;) But the name is cool nonetheless.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-07-07, 09:23 PM	There's not much on them, and most of it comes from Lords of Madness. They're the name given to the group of gods (or godlike beings) worshipped by the Aboleths. Many or all of them seem to be from, or linked to, the Far Realm. Though if you want to get picky, they're neither necessarily Elder nor personifications of Evil. ;) But the name is cool nonetheless. Is the Great Mother one? What about Ilsensine?
Taeldrin Laesrash 03-07-07, 09:30 PM	ahem ... Pun-pun is being challenged by Blingy the Psicrystal , right now on the CO Board. More to this point. Kerleth's Tower in Epic , has a 60th level Epic Spell : Ward on it. While a 60th level caster { which could be a manifester } , is not explicitly broken , one has to posit that the said 'caster' has to haw very closely to RAI. The caster already has Epic Spells ... 6 a day if they kept up their Spellcraft / Knowledge :rolleyes: . A CO or better , TO board interpretation of a 60th level caster , would require sloughing off infinite loop after infinite loop after infi ... do you see what I mean ? Another possibility is the Dream Plane. Flat 1% chance of some infinite horror / thingy popping up in the rest of cosmology. What do you think ? I think that the thread isn't about Pun-Pun. Also, we're discussing canon and fan-created works, not theoretical experiments. Anyway, TSR'd have you think that evil would become dominant in some kind of dramatic end of the universe (The Blood War ending, the General of Gehenna emerging to make the Yugoloths rulers of everything, and on and on). If they made a celestial equvalent to Faces of Evil, we'd get a far brighter picture. Dicefreaks' publications, I believe, are biased towards each alignment they cover. There'll never be a truly clear picture. There might be something that could topple the planar lords in the Far Realm, but I doubt it would operate on the same rules as the existing beings do, so we couldn't compare. What about Upper_Krust's stuff? Aren't there living universes or something like that? I can only imagine what the most powerful being in his cosmogeny is.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-07-07, 09:46 PM	Is the Great Mother one? What about Ilsensine? Neither of them is one of the Aboleth "Elder Evils". But beyond that, both the Great Mother and Ilsensine are entirely native to the Great Wheel multiverse.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-07-07, 09:49 PM	Neither of them is one of the Aboleth "Elder Evils". But beyond that, both the Great Mother and Ilsensine are entirely native to the Great Wheel multiverse. Right, right.
ripvanwormer 03-07-07, 10:48 PM	I'm not sure about the Great Mother; she's credited with spawning the gibbering mouthers, who are noted as being Far Realm creatures in Gates of Firestorm Peak.
ArcTan 03-07-07, 11:12 PM	What about Upper_Krust's stuff? Aren't there living universes or something like that? I can only imagine what the most powerful being in his cosmogeny is. Well, there's Neth, the Plane That Lives, from Manual of the Planes. But Upper_Krust probably has "living universes" on a far greater scale than Neth. If you rule Neth exists in your D&D, he's still far from the most powerful being in the multiverse.
spectralphoenix 03-08-07, 02:28 AM	I'm not sure about the Great Mother; she's credited with spawning the gibbering mouthers, who are noted as being Far Realm creatures in Gates of Firestorm Peak. Isn't she supposed to rule one of the layers of the Abyss?
crimsonwolf 03-08-07, 02:33 AM	question just by DnD rules dealing with diveine rank... surely Amdeious must atelast have one thousand worshipers to get a 0 rank by now
Dunamin 03-08-07, 02:43 AM	He-Man (http://www.retrojunk.com/details_tvshows/14-he-man-and-the-masters-of-the-universe/) - the Most Powerful Man in the Universe! ... I'm sorry, I'll crawl back to my own twisted demi-plane now...
Phantom Llama 03-09-07, 10:49 AM	What about Upper_Krust's stuff? Aren't there living universes or something like that? I can only imagine what the most powerful being in his cosmogeny is. Not counting the Akasha, which probably doesn't qualify as a 'being', the most powerful being would be the unnamed Supreme Being that dwells in Aravoth. It's not detailed in the text but it is suggested that it might be 'Logos', a High Lord comprising 72 universes (one for each name of God). Within a single cosmology, the most powerful being would be the Demiurge (creator of the cosmology) or the Time Lord/Monad (physical embodiment of the cosmology, 'living universe' as you put it).
Singer_of_the_Song 03-09-07, 01:11 PM	Isn't she supposed to rule one of the layers of the Abyss? Yea, layer 6.
Elessar Lespin 03-09-07, 07:06 PM	I get so irritated that Pun-Pun gets brought into EVERY SINGLE cosmic entities discussion as the end-all/be-all of cosmic entities when he is not even officially published or sanctioned material. Pun-Pun was created in its original form as a ridiculous loophole exploit of an ability which should never have been published as it is. The question of the most powerful being in the universe as it was posed seems to be more of a honest question of cosmic power. Since it has been proven that there are beings above Ao (in the FR campaign setting) it will never be possible to prove who the 'top dog' in the cosmic chain really is. However going from actually published gaming material (not fabricated characters of my imagination), I'd go with the Neutronium Golem from Upper Krust publishing. At least it uses no BS infinity loops psionic or otherwise to achieve its godlike stats...
Frobojoe 03-10-07, 01:57 AM	However going from actually published gaming material (not fabricated characters of my imagination), I'd go with the Neutronium Golem from Upper Krust publishing. At least it uses no BS infinity loops psionic or otherwise to achieve its godlike stats... Please, the Neutronium Golem pales in comparison to full-fledged Eternals.
Taeldrin Laesrash 03-10-07, 09:46 AM	And apparantly, if the worlds the golems inhabit have physical manifestations, then there's far more ground on the power scale to cover. Speaking of which, why don't the Akashas count as beings?
AlanBruce 03-10-07, 11:48 AM	I was wondering... shouldn't the God of Darkness and Entropy, Tharizdun be contestant to such a title? It took the combined efforts of an entire pantheon (or mostly, at least) to bind him. That seems pretty powerful to me.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-10-07, 02:52 PM	alas , Tharizdun got nerfed in his/its latest version ... just an intermediate deity now. Some more "contortionisms" for ripvanwormer to make sense of. Not common sense. I'll stand by the 60th level caster with epic spells. oh , and , that'll be the representative from Elemental Plane of Fire / most likely. The Dream Plane horror thingy has a 1% chance of winning , only by WotC default. hmm ... AO has a boss to report to. Yep. That might win. If any super powerful thing stuck a limb / psuedopod into the Plane of Mirrors ... an anti- super powerful thing , is immediately exist-ified with the added ability of knowing where the original self's location is. That's a pretty good SDA , in some cases.
Phantom Llama 03-10-07, 07:25 PM	And apparantly, if the worlds the golems inhabit have physical manifestations, then there's far more ground on the power scale to cover. Speaking of which, why don't the Akashas count as beings? The Akasha is the Akashic Record, the fount of all present, future and past existence and the fundamental basis of all possibility. It is listed at the end of the divinity table as having infinite divine rank, but is not suggested to have a physical embodiment or mind like the Supreme Being and its subordinates/rivals. It can actually be altered by the Supreme Being, representative of the DM's ability to change the rules of the game system he is using. Where Ao is identified with the Forgotten Realms, a Monad with the Planescape Cosmology, the Supreme Being/Logos with the DM, the Akasha would be identified with the D20 System. It would only have a physical embodiment and will of its own in systems where Rule 0 does not exist and the game company will send thugs round to beat up GMs who house-rule.
ripvanwormer 03-10-07, 09:08 PM	alas , Tharizdun got nerfed in his/its latest version ... just an intermediate deity now. He's been an intermediate deity since early 2nd edition. As the Dark God, he's only a lesser deity on some worlds. I favor the explanation in the 1st edition Manual of the Planes and A Guide to the Ethereal Plane - that most of Tharizdun's essence was thrown into the Negative Energy Plane by the gods that opposed him, annihilated forever. The portion of him that exists now is only the core that they could not destroy.
Grandmaster_Kane 03-11-07, 12:19 PM	who the hell is pun pun
Adrez Nesnsid 03-11-07, 01:12 PM	It's impossible to say, but there's no objective scale of power. Beings like Ao may be effectively all powerful, but their power is limited to a specific sphere of influence (Ao has absolutely no power outside of the prime material world of Toril and the other worlds that orbit its sun). Other beings are powerful, but largely undefined in terms of just what they can or can't do, like The Lady of Pain. Actually, there's reason to believe that the Lady of Pain may fall into the first category as well. I don't think that I've ever seen any sort of reference to her ever leaving Sigil, nor, indeed, ever directly influencing something that wasn't part of either Sigil or the Mazes, and from the descriptions that I've seen of the role that she plays in Sigil, it seems to me that she may be simply an exceptionally powerful local spirit, and unable to influence anything outside of Sigil at all and may noy even BE ABLE to leave the city (Similar to the way in which Hastur the Unspeakable has little to no power on Earth when the Hyades are not visible in the sky).
Adrez Nesnsid 03-11-07, 01:14 PM	WotC doesn't hold any copyrights to Lovecraft's work. A large portion of HPL's material is public domain, with a slim portion that he ghostwrote or collaborated with other authors being held by various descendants of those persons. Chaosium holds the rights for the use of Lovecraft's creations in an RPG, and WotC only published d20 Call of Cthulhu in cooperation with them as a one shot publication by license. If a large portion of Lovecraft's work is in the public domain, then how the hell can Chaosium hold the rights to the use of those portions in RPGs.
Adrez Nesnsid 03-11-07, 01:18 PM	While the Far Realm of D&D is heavily inspired by Lovecraft's work, none of D&D's far realm beings are those from HPL's works, and WotC can't use them. The Elder Gods of HPL and others' works are not the Aboleth's so-called Elder Evils. There WAS, however, use of Lovecraft's version of Dagon (sort of) in Fiendish Codex I
awaken_D_M_golem 03-11-07, 02:20 PM	hey ripvw , umm ... yeah ... lemme explain myself : see , the far realm(s) of insanity-internet have flowing time trait ... err and , the far realm(s) of insanity-earth is where my precipitate planar breach originated from { ... stalling for "time" ... } so , I guess I knew all that cause I suceeded a Knowledge ( ancient D&D ) check. I just didn't remember what I remembered. Must be that "med"-ication I'm on. Nerf being a relative term. Phantom Llama - along those lines is the mormony/deismy thing the Athar believe in , and IF they believe in it enough ... Grandmaster_Kane - Pun-pun is the guy Blingy the Psicrystal has beaten , over on the CO Board. I'll refrain from free advertising , but its on the bar on the bottom right of this page. Adrez Nesnsid - "Hastur has little power ..." , oh yee of little faith :88E:
ArcTan 03-11-07, 06:35 PM	If a large portion of Lovecraft's work is in the public domain, then how the hell can Chaosium hold the rights to the use of those portions in RPGs. They don't. There's tons of Lovecraft references in all kinds of RPGs, including a direct chart comparing the Elder Evil to various Lovecraft baddies in Lords of Madness. Chaosium holds the *trademarks* to names like "Call of Cthulhu" and "The Lovecraft Mythos" for things in RPGs, but that's different. You just can't call an RPG the "Cthulhu RPG" without being taken to court.
Deacon Liadon 03-12-07, 12:50 PM	I'd like to nominate the Demented as a group. Admittedly, we haven't heard all that much about them, but if we look at what we do know we can see that they're pretty powerful.
Dunamin 03-12-07, 03:04 PM	Actually, there's reason to believe that the Lady of Pain may fall into the first category as well. I don't think that I've ever seen any sort of reference to her ever leaving Sigil, nor, indeed, ever directly influencing something that wasn't part of either Sigil or the Mazes, and from the descriptions that I've seen of the role that she plays in Sigil, it seems to me that she may be simply an exceptionally powerful local spirit, and unable to influence anything outside of Sigil at all and may noy even BE ABLE to leave the city (Similar to the way in which Hastur the Unspeakable has little to no power on Earth when the Hyades are not visible in the sky). That goes particularly well with the theory that she actually is Sigil. Ah, wild theories on the Lady of Pain... what would Planescape be without them...
awaken_D_M_golem 03-12-07, 04:10 PM	@ Deacon Lidocane You heard from the Demented on post #66 , just above yours. But you didn't "hear" it ...
Adrez Nesnsid 03-13-07, 04:05 PM	Wasn't there some kind of Illuminati-esque conspiricy in the Epic Level Handbook that was secretly controlling the multiverse? (I think they were called "The Regulators" or something to that effect...)
Adrez Nesnsid 03-13-07, 04:14 PM	That goes particularly well with the theory that she actually is Sigil. Ah, wild theories on the Lady of Pain... what would Planescape be without them... I've got more; I would further note that Sigil's supposed importance in the outer planes wildly outstrips the importance of the role that it acutally plays in the planes and would postulate that, because belief is power on the outer planes, that over 99% of the city of Sigil's power, desiribility, and influence (and therefore the Lady's power as well), derives not from any aspect of the city itself (whose one noteworthy strategic and mercantile trait is either matched or exceeded by the Infinite Staircase, The World Serpent Inn, the entire Astral Plane, the River Styx, the River Oceanus, and several mid-to-high-level Sorceror/Wizard spells (most notably Plane Shift)), but, instead, from the sheer jingoism of the city's residents.
tankschmidt 03-13-07, 04:22 PM	...we're discussing canon and fan-created works... If that's the case, has anyone mentioned A'tuin from the NPC Wiki? The Star Turtle (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/A%27tuin_the_Star_Turtle) weighs in at a CR of over 84 million. At the very least, I'd maintain he's the most powerful turtle in the multiverse.
ArcTan 03-13-07, 06:52 PM	I've got more; I would further note that Sigil's supposed importance in the outer planes wildly outstrips the importance of the role that it acutally plays in the planes and would postulate that, because belief is power on the outer planes, that over 99% of the city of Sigil's power, desiribility, and influence (and therefore the Lady's power as well), derives not from any aspect of the city itself (whose one noteworthy strategic and mercantile trait is either matched or exceeded by the Infinite Staircase, The World Serpent Inn, the entire Astral Plane, the River Styx, the River Oceanus, and several mid-to-high-level Sorceror/Wizard spells (most notably Plane Shift)), but, instead, from the sheer jingoism of the city's residents. The portals in Sigil are far more reliable and easy to access on the large scale than any of the alternate means of transport you describe. (The World Serpent Inn, in particular, seems designed to have a very slow trickle of beings in and out of the Inn, so that it retains the basic characteristic of an *inn* as opposed to a city.)
ArcTan 03-13-07, 06:54 PM	Wasn't there some kind of Illuminati-esque conspiricy in the Epic Level Handbook that was secretly controlling the multiverse? (I think they were called "The Regulators" or something to that effect...) Yes indeed, The Regulators. The perfect plot device for high-powered campaigns if I ever saw it. They were namechecked as recently as Tome of Magic, when they were invoked as the explanation for the continued, paradoxical existence of the Order of Seropaenes (an unlikely alliance of all the major religions in Greyhawk, including ones that loathe each other, to hunt vestige-binders).
Adrez Nesnsid 03-13-07, 08:13 PM	The portals in Sigil are far more reliable and easy to access on the large scale than any of the alternate means of transport you describe. (The World Serpent Inn, in particular, seems designed to have a very slow trickle of beings in and out of the Inn, so that it retains the basic characteristic of an *inn* as opposed to a city.) OK, perhaps, but I just realized that I forgot to mention the demiplane-city of Union, and the Great Dismal Delve, which Sigil is also implied to be better than in standard planescape mythos, despite the fact that both are also crammed to the gills with portals, just like Sigil, as well as the fact that the inhabitants of Union seem to be, on the whole, significantly less insane than the inhabitants of Sigil.
Taeldrin Laesrash 03-13-07, 08:37 PM	Yes indeed, The Regulators. The perfect plot device for high-powered campaigns if I ever saw it. They were namechecked as recently as Tome of Magic, when they were invoked as the explanation for the continued, paradoxical existence of the Order of Seropaenes (an unlikely alliance of all the major religions in Greyhawk, including ones that loathe each other, to hunt vestige-binders). I think it's just silly. While the Illuminati-type manipulation is cool, the organization has no motivation (Thus no real purpose), no real organization, and no justification for its lack of discovery and subsequent rooting out. Adrez Nesnid: Union has three portals, one which is just a portal to another planar pathway, the other two being highly regulated to ensure that money flows through the city. It's not as widespread as you think. Also, the city's resident are as sane than Sigilians, the latter being kind of like New Yorkers. The Great Dismal Delve is a Dao stronghold, isn't it? Not many people will be going through there. Also, you seem to overestimate the planar pathways. The Staircase and planar rivers can all take days to traverse. The Styx and Oceanus are both very dangerous (Requiring professional guides often), and only lead to their respective good and bad planes. The Astral Plane's color pools are a bit more unpredictable than portals, and the plane itself is dangerous. In addition, spells like plane shift can't be used regulary by millions of people. Sigil is a relatively stable path to oodles of planar locations with its dozens and dozens of portals. Compared to the other planes, the city is pretty safe.
ArcTan 03-14-07, 02:27 AM	OK, perhaps, but I just realized that I forgot to mention the demiplane-city of Union, and the Great Dismal Delve, which Sigil is also implied to be better than in standard planescape mythos, despite the fact that both are also crammed to the gills with portals, just like Sigil, as well as the fact that the inhabitants of Union seem to be, on the whole, significantly less insane than the inhabitants of Sigil. Union is a new city whose selection of portals is rather limited. That's why it's introduced as a fun place to have your new Epic characters make their homebase, as there's a lot of high-level people here but a high degree of order and such, enforced by the mercane rulers of Union, compared to the rough-and-tumble environment of Sigil. Give Union as many portals and as much traffic in and out as Sigil has and it will become another Sigil. And the Great Dismal Delve sounds more dismal than Sigil just by the name, doesn't it? Unlike Her Serenity, who's allowed Sigil, despite its corruption and craziness, to become a sort of haven for all kinds of political factions and who intervenes to prevent widespread brutality and destruction in Sigil, the Great Dismal Delve is ruled by the emperor of the dao, who did not become emperor of the dao by being a nice person, as the dao are not a nice race. If you're a person of great power and wealth, you might be able to negotiate the Delve safely -- otherwise you run the risk of having your wealth taken as "tribute" and yourself taken as a slave of the dao empire.
ArcTan 03-14-07, 02:29 AM	I think it's just silly. While the Illuminati-type manipulation is cool, the organization has no motivation (Thus no real purpose), no real organization, and no justification for its lack of discovery and subsequent rooting out. Well, the "motivation" is the usual one of "We're so high-level and powerful that we realize the only way to keep the multiverse from collapsing is to maintain The Balance". It's not a great motivation, but it can be bolstered, with some work on the part of the DM. So can all the little details of how the Regulators actually keep their operation going and what their internal structure is like and such. Again, I think the point is for them to be a shadowy deus ex machina that justifies the continued existence of much more directly cool yet unlikely organizations like the Seropaenes.
myusernameis 03-14-07, 02:31 AM	Orcus, last time he died he became a god killing terror. So if he loses, he wins.
Zumarai 03-14-07, 08:31 AM	Bigfoot. …Because it's a piece of Chuck Norris' beard that has escaped and become more powerful than its origins.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-14-07, 08:41 PM	err ... Clone and Disguise Self ...
spectralphoenix 03-15-07, 04:59 AM	Did Union even exist before the ELH? Personally I felt the whole thing seemed a bit like a cheap knockoff of the City of Doors built to show off the stuff in the book (I mean seriously, epic-level nameless city watchmen?) And as for the Infinite Staircase, have you ever tried leading a caravan with wagons full of merchandise on a several-day-long trip up or down a 20-foot wide flight of somewhat-unmappable stairs? Neither have I.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-15-07, 12:06 PM	Did Union even exist before the ELH? Personally I felt the whole thing seemed a bit like a cheap knockoff of the City of Doors built to show off the stuff in the book (I mean seriously, epic-level nameless city watchmen?) Union never existed before the ELH. Much of the hostility it gets is, as you said, because in many ways it was presented like a cheap knockoff of Sigil. Most of the organizations in the description of Union also fare poorly as well, because none of them existed prior to that book, they're all described in a vacuum without any link or connection to any other plane spanning groups, and they claim all sorts of power and influence despite having popped up randomly out of nowhere. The whole mess isn't unsalvageable, but it could have been handled in much better fashion the first time around.
Adrez Nesnsid 03-15-07, 12:14 PM	Most of the organizations in the description of Union also fare poorly as well, because none of them existed prior to that book, they're all described in a vacuum without any link or connection to any other plane spanning groups, and they claim all sorts of power and influence despite having popped up randomly out of nowhere. Well so did the factions of Sigil, its just that the factions popped up a much longer time ago. (and frankly, I personally think that the organizations in Union make a heck of a lot more sense (are the Factions supposed to come off as incurably insane??))
Chanmanm8 03-15-07, 12:42 PM	From texts: 1.) Immortals Handbook: Neutronium Golem (aka "Neutraliser) CR 9721, 1.5 million HP, movement speed is superluminal (speed of light), has hardness 1500, fast heals 1500 hp per round. Has several auras around it: 1. crushing gravity aura (since its essentially a living mini star...its medium size, but treated as if it were 32 sizes larger). 2. Heat aura...does 62d1000 in 20 mile radius (avg 31,031), 15d1000 to all in 60 mile radius, 3d1000 to all in 200 miles, 1d1000 to all in 600 miles (average thus is 500 per round for that distance) Immunity to magic and construct traits (immune to spells/epic spells w/ spell resistance allowed) Pulsed X-Ray supernatural ability: as a free action every round, the neutronium golem can emit a pulsed x-ray to everything within a range of 1000 miles. DMG is 125d1000 (average 62,562 dmg per round) And don't even get me started on the deaththroes of this thing if anything manages to kill it....can someone say...DeathStar explosion lolol...that also does radiation damage which you need to take feats for protection against it, ability score damage, and tons of fire and raw force damage...and disintegration of everything within 140 miles...with a DC save of 135 to survive it... the farthest extent of its deathroes explosion is 2500 mile radius ALSO: For a creature using the Immortals Handbook rules that someone created to demonstrate an example of an even bigger Cosmic level entity... A'tuin the Star Turtle: CR 84,431,558 Double Macrobe (size category of a small star system) Dragon Turtle... Just under 11 billion HP, but with the extreme Fast healing, Damage Reduction, Radiation Resistance Feat, and the DiscWorld Sun Artifacts: Intro from the creator using Immortals Handbook Rules I developed these stats not to propose a combat threat to players, but rather to establish exactly how powerful a threat to A'tuin must be for plots that threaten the insanely large turtle. Comparitively, spells and threats to destroy any other planet would need to be of a similar stature, so you can use these numbers as a starting point. If you want to make the epic spell "Death Star Super-Laser", it's going to need to deal well more than eleven billion points of damage. So take note. Size rules from the Immortal's Handbook. :eek:
Shemeska the Marauder 03-15-07, 01:01 PM	Well so did the factions of Sigil, its just that the factions popped up a much longer time ago. (and frankly, I personally think that the organizations in Union make a heck of a lot more sense (are the Factions supposed to come off as incurably insane??)) Except before that point there had never really been an attempt to explore society on the planes, detail any planar organizations, or exploit the niche that the factions ended up filling. Many of the Union groups overlap themes and goals of various factions, sects, and entire planar races but don't acknowledge that at all, really to the point of absurdity. It hurts them, which is unfortunate because they could have been presented better.
Zumarai 03-15-07, 01:30 PM	Except before that point there had never really been an attempt to explore society on the planes, detail any planar organizations, or exploit the niche that the factions ended up filling. Many of the Union groups overlap themes and goals of various factions, sects, and entire planar races but don't acknowledge that at all, really to the point of absurdity. It hurts them, which is unfortunate because they could have been presented better. True – it's almost as if Epic is separate (meta plot-wise), or should be, from the rest of the D&D cosmology.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-15-07, 04:33 PM	ahh , well , CO board is a plot seperate from the rest of the D&D world , too. @ Chanmanm8 : FesteringAnger at level 1 , from BoVD , can defeat both of what you listed. LINKY on the TO Boards , I recently exposed Pun-pun as something Pazuzu could do himself. As could an Efreet , a Sarrukh , anything with Wish or Gate or Knowledge check of 25 ... isn't Taiia the DvR 20 deity at the end of Deities+DemiGawds ?
Chanmanm8 03-15-07, 05:20 PM	ahh , well , CO board is a plot seperate from the rest of the D&D world , too. @ Chanmanm8 : FesteringAnger at level 1 , from BoVD , can defeat both of what you listed. LINKY on the TO Boards , I recently exposed Pun-pun as something Pazuzu could do himself. As could an Efreet , a Sarrukh , anything with Wish or Gate or Knowledge check of 25 ... isn't Taiia the DvR 20 deity at the end of Deities+DemiGawds ? You're thing for infinite stats? Its like a less broken pun pun...but still broken nonetheless. So I wouldn't count anything like that lol...no DM would allow that to work. I think this post is for legit, non-exploitive play; otherwise pun-pun would be the strongest :P. As for Taiia, shes DvR 20, but she's not an overdeity like Lord Ao...and there are those (including myself) who would put the Lady of Pain above him in power....considering his Domain is Toril only....however, the Lady cannot leave Sigil. The only things I'd consider stronger than than her are the way things Upper_Krust does in his series that he's releasing: The Immortals Handbook that introduces rules, revisions; content for Cosmic level play. All the entities in the book that are above being classed "epic" have divine ranks (but he doesnt use the Salient Divine Ability system...he has a stronger version that goes for cosmic entities. These cosmic entities aren't concerned with just a plane of some small realm...they go beyond governing universes to several realities entirely. So...thats where those 2 creatures I featured came from...but are legit where as your guy is not legit...no DM with common sense would allow you to pull that off.
Bob the Efreet 03-15-07, 06:08 PM	As for Taiia, shes DvR 20, but she's not an overdeity like Lord Ao...and there are those (including myself) who would put the Lady of Pain above him in power....considering his Domain is Toril only....however, the Lady cannot leave Sigil. Sigil is smaller than Realmspace.
ripvanwormer 03-15-07, 06:09 PM	(are the Factions supposed to come off as incurably insane??)) Yes. Absolutely yes. These are people who live in the realm of gods and the afterlife. Such direct exposure to fundamental forces affects the mind. If they thought like you and me, it wouldn't feel like the Outer Planes. It would feel like a material plane city awkwardly transplanted somewhere else. It would feel lame and disappointing - something like Union.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-15-07, 06:57 PM	....however, the Lady cannot leave Sigil. That's the assumption everyone goes on, but it's not a solidly known fact. The Lady might be trapped in Sigil, it might be her Cage, but she might also just not care about anything outside of the City of Doors, or we might not have the scope of knowledge to see her influence outside of her city. We've never seen direct evidence of Her Serenity walking outside of Sigil and flaying somebody, no, that would be boring and munchy perhaps. But there's some veiled, and downright creepy, suggestions of the Lady having influence beyond Sigil proper: Factol Skall may have been in the negative energy plane at the time he was mazed; there were carved Dabus runes and a curiously bladed staff in the interior of a hollow cube in Acheron; the fact that the mazes are part of the ethereal and yet part of Sigil at the same time; and the fact that portals from Sigil can be opened seemingly anywhere, anytime in the multiverse... But I won't claim those are all true evidence that the Lady can act outside of Sigil, just creepy "maybes". It doesn't make her all powerful, it just adds another layer of bizarre to the void of her history. Paradox, whimsy, and blades. Fun fun.
Bob the Efreet 03-16-07, 03:16 PM	Factol Skall may have been in the negative energy plane at the time he was mazed; I like entertaining the ability that he hasn't been mazed, but he's pretending to be. Or maybe he reached True Death. By accident.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-18-07, 02:24 PM	The running tally is : (A) Overdeity-ish unstatted fill-in-the-blank-Name , but only with-in their 'sphere'. (B) AO's Boss (C) Taiia - just m'cuz She's statted (D) Kehrleth's Tower Ward Maker (E) Neth - see post #101 below (F) mechanical rule horrors { ... *****-ors ... } like Blingy the Psicrystal , link below EDIT : sorry , didn't know that word would be starred out , rhymes with 'horrors'. (G) new :: Draeden - turns into abyssal plain - pumps out DvR beings on its own Should "we" put it to a vote ?!
Adrez Nesnsid 03-19-07, 07:25 AM	like Blingy the Psicrystal What thread has the stats for "Blingy the psicrystal"?
Adrez Nesnsid 03-19-07, 07:29 AM	I just remembered that in one April Fools issue of Dragon magazine they did the stats for a 20th level character who wielded all of the artifacts from the Dungeon Master's Guide and the Epic Level Handbook. That character might be in the running.
Taeldrin Laesrash 03-19-07, 09:35 AM	Nah. Any properly made character could trounce that. It's just a joke. Also, just could the ward in Kherleth's Tower is CL 60, doesn't mean it should be taken seriously. It's just poor numbers, and should be taken with a grain of salt.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-19-07, 08:37 PM	What thread has the stats for "Blingy the psicrystal"? Here's the link ---> Blingy Although , RipVW gave me a minor hard time , a few threads back , about Canon vs Rules Horrors. And technically , I agree with him here , but not there. Its m'cuz of my personality parasite , spliting things up like that. BONUS : Yo Adrez Nesnsid - WOW. Even if an April Fools , a 20th level character could be planned in such a way that the Deck Of Many Things wouldn't hurt it. I'm'n'a go "med"-itate on it. You wouldn't happen to have an issue # for that ?!
Orodruin 03-19-07, 10:04 PM	Nah. Any properly made character could trounce that. It's just a joke. Also, just could the ward in Kherleth's Tower is CL 60, doesn't mean it should be taken seriously. It's just poor numbers, and should be taken with a grain of salt. Shucks. I guess the old Quasar Dragon's out of the running then! :P
awaken_D_M_golem 03-20-07, 04:31 PM	@ T L-rash A joke it might be , but official anyway. Prolly has to be De-Optimized to be playable. A not so minor detail on Neth ... A 5' x 5' section of Neth has 120 hit points , A flattened out Neth is 500 miles diameter and 30 feet deep. This doesn't represent interior nooks and crannies. The math works out to : ~ 5,250,000,000,000 HD and that's just a minimum , amongst other things. Within an order of magnitude of Hive+Blingy second round. hmm ... A joke it might be , but official anyway. WOW.