Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrimsonDeath 02-03-08, 04:00 PM	This discussion started in another thread, and it was suggested that it be condinued elsewhere. Since it deals largely with planar cosmology and the behavior of Outsiders, I figured this was as good a place as any. I apologize if I was mistaken. What's gone before: Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants Of The Nine Hells. Asmodeus made the Pact Primeval, which dictates that all Lawfully aligned souls which commit too many evil or lawful acts will be the property of Baator. A really good read, actually. For instance, if a Lawful Neutral character is ordered by a superior to execute someone (LAWFULLY, mind you), that is worth 5-6 Corruption points for Obesience. Upon reaching 9 corruption points (through either Evil or Law), the character's death does not bring an afterlife based on alignment, but rather sends the soul to Baator for ownership and colorful torments. This makes ressurection difficult, to say the least, as well as interesting side-affects on a character's psychology. -------- Swearing fealty to a leader you know - 1 point Swearing fealty to a leader you've never met - 2 points Disciplining an underling - 2 points Resolving a dispute through a legal process (Courts, etc) - 2 points Quietly accepting a legal judgement against you (A fine or so on) - 2 Points Executing a Lawful sentence of corporal punishment - 3 Points Following a rule you consider stupid - 3 Points Aiding a Superior to your own detriment - 3 Points Swearing fealty to a devil - 4 Points Obeying a leader you do you respect - 4 points Performing a Lawful execution - 5 Points As for the evil acts - basically they are rating from 1-7 points, but I'm not going to type the entire list here. Something to keep in mind - the majority of Lawful Good paladins end up in Baator because of the Pact Primeval. Forget about Lawful Neutral - those poor bastards get sent down almost as much as Lawful Evil folks. "Any lawful character who dies with a corrupting rating of 9 or higher goes to Baator, no matter how many orphans he rescued or minions of evil he vanquished in life." I love my books. Wow, that has to be the dumbest thing Wizards ever put to print and a good enough reason for me not to buy that book. First off i don't appreciate them putting thier own politcial spin on things, like making legal executions something to send you to hell. Aside from that the idea that if you are lawful you will be sent to hell is just ridiculous BS. Yes i can see why resolving a dispute through a court is a much more evil act than simply killing someone. And gods forbid you admire your leaders, you must rot in the fires of hades for all eternity:rolleyes: And DM's wonder how to get thier PCs from causing chaos in towns where they are the most pwoerful guys around, wella cording to this they would be better off killing everyone since even if they did do something bad, and obeyed the law and all, they would still get a red mark. Sounds like someone at Wizards with a hard on for Chaotic characters got assigned this book. No.. Its not about Chaos, its about Law. Its about Asmodeus outsmarting the Gods of Law, and about Asmodeus gaining incredible amounts of power from the Pact Primeval. It has nothing to do with politics, its just.. lawful. Being TOO lawful sends you to hell. Being TOO evil (with a lawful alignment) sends you to hell. Something those sociopathic Lawful Neutral people should keep in mind. Also, the corruption list says nothing about "admiring" leaders. However, swearing fealty to a leader is giving up one's own freedoms. It is, therefore, an act of servitude. However, its only worth one point. No big deal there. Besides, its supposed to be a SURPRISE. A SHOCK. Players SHOULDNT know about this. They can weep bitter tears of blood as their flesh is flayed from their bones in Baator, wondering why they are here when they have devoted themselves to honesty, and following the law to the letter. Another note - This reinforces the fact that is pointed out in the PHB. NEUTRAL Good is "True Good". Once again, its not about punishing players, its about making Asmodeus look like exactly what he is - a badass who tricked the Gods of Law into signing AWAY mortal's souls. I always get a smile on my face when someone plays a Lawful Neutral sociopath blah blah law law character. I know exactly what awaits them. (Lets not forget about monks. Samurai? Baator is full of them.) You're conflating Corruption points and Obeisance poince. Corruption points measure a character's drift toward Evil, and Obeisance points measure a character's drift toward Law. I gather that one needs both in order to wind up relegated to Baator. While Lawful characters would naturally accumulate Obeisance points, Paladins would be relatively (maybe even completely) free of Corruption points. No... FC2 states that Obeisance points "act as corruption points" for purposes of damnation. They stack. If I brutally murder someone for 6 Corruption, and then Lawfully execute someone, thats a ticket to Baator. Dont like it? Blame Asmodeus :) Its not SUPPOSED to be fair. Thats the nature of the beast. The actual wording is "function like corruption points" (emphasis mine). I think a reasonable reading of it with an eye toward everything that has gone before in both the TSR and WotC catalogs regarding the planes makes it clear that it is necessary to be innundated with both Law and Evil to buy an afterlife ticket to Baator. FC2 explicitly says that lawful beings with sufficient corruption points go to the 9 hells. I think it is implicit that in addition to obeisance points you would need to have an evil alignment (or sufficient corruption) to be hellbound. FC2 is actually decent, I think that KruniacZio is just doing too narrow a reading of the obeisance rules. All of the things listed in the obeisance rules are things that would tend to shift you toward a lawful alignment and/or indicate loyalty to the system for the system's sake. Combined with an evil alignment (which 9 points of corruption should manage to get you), it makes sense that Baator is your destination in the afterlife. That isnt very Asmodeus-ish, is it? It would make SENSE that obeying a leader whom you dont know would land you in hell (as a worthless servant). It would make SENSE that Lawfully executing someone (and this brings up the debate of Law vs Good) would send you to hell. Its very like Asmodeus to steal away souls that -should- go to Mechanus. Its very like Asmodeus to not be fair. You dont have to be "evil" to land in Baator. That wouldnt be "bending" the rules, as Asmodeus is want to do, now would it? Perhaps it is very much like Asmodeus, but is it within his rights as outlined in the Pact Primeval? He's entitled to Lawful Evil souls. Souls that merely happen to be Lawful without being Evil are outside his grasp. That's the entire point behind the economy of corruption that's developed in the Nine Hells. Obeisance points are a method of stealing souls from the Abyss, not Celestia. Note that the Obeisance sidebar specifically states that devils will pose as demons in order to corrupt demon worshippers toward Law. As always, DMs do as they please. In my setting, if you are mister sociopathic Lawful Neutral, im counting down the acts until your fate is sealed. And for some reason, a Paladin whose only crimes are swearing fealty to a king he's never met, but whom he understands by reputation to be kind and just (2 Obeisance points), takes a legal dispute to the courts (2 more points), accepts the judge's decision against him gracefully (2 more), and finally dies helping his commanding officer, a higher-ranking paladin, overcome a dangerous situation (3 more points, bringing him to a total of 9 Obeisance) winds up on a boat to Baator right beside him. That makes so little sense that I doubt even Asmodeus himself with help from nine of his best attourneys could convince the gods of law that the Pact Primeval permits it. Its a good thing that the Pact is already signed then, eh? Asmodeus doesnt -need- to convince anyone of anything. Its done. Its finished. FC2 states that Obeisence points function like corruption points. When someone reaches either 9 Corruption (making them essentially evil) or 9 Obeisence (making them mechanically Lawful), they row the boat down the River. "Devils also try to actively recruit mortals to the side of the law, although their activities in this regard draw less attention than their corruption of souls towards evil." - It does not say EVIL mortals. It simply says Law. In fact, this quote makes a point of mentioning the difference between this manner of soul-gathering, and the "corruption" angle. Hence, Too evil (with a lawful alignment), or too lawful, and you end up the property of a Devil. That is why the Pact Primeval is genius. I stress again - it isnt supposed to be FAIR. The entire reason the gods of Law were irritated was because THEY were losing souls. Why? Asmodeus was taking those Lawful souls into his own domain by means of the Pact. This is why its important for characters to maintain a "Balance" of alignment, and never be "too strict" and so forth. Its also why Paladins are suppose to be FAIR, instead of "by the book" at all times. The Law gods know of the Pact - and they dont want to lose Paladins to it. However, given the attitudes of players who have Paladin characters, they are doomed. And that is why their are no petitioners in any of the lawful planes...oh, wait, there are plenty. The omission (or implicit rather than explicit inclusion) of one word in a sidebar in a non-core source is insufficient to overturn the entirety of planar canon. If you are LN and sociopathic, you are going to end up hellbound because you are either a) going to become evil or b) accumulate enough corruption points that you are practically evil. Anyway, we're sidetracking the thread pretty badly, if we want to continue this we should start a new thread.
CrimsonDeath 02-03-08, 04:01 PM	And now, the discussion continues: Its a good thing that the Pact is already signed then, eh? Asmodeus doesnt -need- to convince anyone of anything. Its done. Its finished. FC2 states that Obeisence points function like corruption points. When someone reaches either 9 Corruption (making them essentially evil) or 9 Obeisence (making them mechanically Lawful), they row the boat down the River. The Pact Primeval is the only thing that stops the deities of Law from ganging up and curbstomping Asmodeus in the first place (as noted on FC2 p.5). The deities first established the Pact so that there would be a place outside their divine realm for Lawful Evil souls. If Asmodeus is going to start grabbing Lawful Good souls, he needs to convince the Deities of Law that the Pact-- which, as you've stated, is a done deal-- already empowers him to do so. Somehow, I doubt that particular loophole would've slipped past Heironius, Moradin, and Yondalla all working together. "Devils also try to actively recruit mortals to the side of the law, although their activities in this regard draw less attention than their corruption of souls towards evil." - It does not say EVIL mortals. It simply says Law. In fact, this quote makes a point of mentioning the difference between this manner of soul-gathering, and the "corruption" angle. It also specifically mentions the obeisance of "would-be demon worshipers", who are presumably Chaotic Evil; seducing them to the side of Law would make them Lawful Evil, and thus eligible for diabolic harvest. Considering the fact that the Obeisance rule is merely a sidebar and is mechanically similar to the Corruption rule, I suspect that it wasn't quite as fleshed out simply because page space needed to be devoted to other concepts. in this context, I believe that functioning "like" Corruption merely means that it functions independently of Corruption but according to the same mechanics, not that the two are completely interchangeable. (If they were, they wouldn't need a different name.) Hence, Too evil (with a lawful alignment), or too lawful, and you end up the property of a Devil. In that case, what's the point of corrupting mortals toward Evil? If they're already Lawful, you've got them. If they're not lawful, just obeise them until they are, and you've got them. No need to even touch the good/evil axis. Much more efficient. But look at the rest of the book. Pages and pages devoted to different methods of corrupting mortals toward Evil, and only a couple of inches in a single sidebar devoted to obeising mortals toward Law. There are also several pages devoted to the fierce competition among devils for the right to claim souls. If the competition is that heated, why do any devils bother with Corruption at all if Obeisance is where it's at? That is why the Pact Primeval is genius. I stress again - it isnt supposed to be FAIR. The entire reason the gods of Law were irritated was because THEY were losing souls. Why? Asmodeus was taking those Lawful souls into his own domain by means of the Pact. The reason the dieties of Law were losing souls is because devils were corrupting mortals that, left to their own devices, would've been Good (or would've continued worshipping Lawful Evil deities). This is why its important for characters to maintain a "Balance" of alignment, and never be "too strict" and so forth. Its also why Paladins are suppose to be FAIR, instead of "by the book" at all times. The Law gods know of the Pact - and they dont want to lose Paladins to it. However, given the attitudes of players who have Paladin characters, they are doomed. The fact that Paladins are Lawful has nothing to do with the player. It's a class feature. Every Paladin is always Lawful. If he's not Lawful, he's not a Paladin. The Paladin can be the detect-and-smite type, the holier-than-thou type, or a more laid-back spirit-of-the-law type. Regardless of his personality, he has to be Lawful; he can't be "balanced". He can (and indeed should) be kind, compassionate, and selfless, but he must also obey the Law. If you're right, and Obeisance alone can send a character's soul to Hell, what kind of Paladin actually makes it to Celestia?
Totentanz 02-03-08, 04:50 PM	By the strict interpretation that some people seem to be flinging around, LE gods would never get any souls, which simply isn't the case. One of the statements of the Pact, which everyone seems to be missing, is the soul can't be claimed by another deity. In FR, for instance, Bane gets all his Blackguards, whether Asmodeus likes it or not. What the gods didn't anticipate was Asmodeus going out and "recruiting." For instance, devils seduce a lawful neutral merchant into committing both lawful and evil acts until he is lawful evil, without realizing it. He doesn't dedicate himself to a lawful evil deity, so his soul belongs to hell. It doesn't work in a simple "X number of points added to a paladin/cleric leads him to Hell." If that were the case, a Chaotic Good Paladin of Freedom could end up in Hell, which is silly. The Pact is intended (by Asmodeus) to allow him to go out and lay claim to those sociopathic LN's when they aren't claimed by someone else. Even better, his Imps convince them to go full blown LE and spread it before they die. He CAN get Paladins, but they have to fall first. When Paladins start falling for listening to their church superiors, something is wrong. Application of a simple, linear, mathematical system to something as complex as alignment, especially when used to land people in eternal torment, is sure to cause mutiny among players. There is nothing epic, heroic, or fun about living a good, law-abiding life, sacrificing it for the good of a cause you believe in, and then being told by your DM your character is going to Hell because he "listened to authority too much." If you use a little side bar in one book to jack your players around like that, then you as a DM deserve to be called LE. Let me know where you live so I never risk playing with you. Books are never a substitute for fun or common sense. If your idea of fun is to ruin your friends' gaming time, get professional help. :P Nothing in the Pact Primeval or the entire book says characters can't be resurrected. Anyone who wants to apply a "strict RAW" interpretation of those helpful guidelines should remember that. Finally, one must also remember that what the book doesn't say is that there are surely counter-points (pardon the pun) to the ones in the book. The book does say that other deeds characters perform cancel out the "hellish" acts, which is why when devils sign pacts certain they try to arrange for death ASAP, because even after giving over their soul they can redeem themselves. All in all, saying that anyone who accumulates 9 of those points over their life is doomed is silly because then EVERYONE would end up in Hell. It would appear a new form of irrational fan-boy has sprung from the combined fetid loins of Drizzt wanna-bes, Elminster emulators, Lady of Pain cultists, and Katana worshiper "experts:" Asmodeus horn-shiners. :weep:
Flame_Drake 02-03-08, 05:24 PM	It would appear a new form of irrational fan-boy has sprung from the combined fetid loins of Drizzt wanna-bes, Elminster emulators, Lady of Pain cultists, and Katana worshiper "experts:" Asmodeus horn-shiners. :weep: Hey, Lady of Pain cultists aren't that bad! They make a nice squelching sound when they get flayed :P Drake
Tovec 02-03-08, 06:43 PM	Hey, Lady of Pain cultists aren't that bad! They make a nice squelching sound when they get flayed :P Drake You have to be in Sigil for the lady to touch you. Not all are, in fact I've had one PC who always worships the lady, never in Sigil. This thread seems to have died off.
CrimsonDeath 02-03-08, 08:27 PM	This thread seems to have died off. "Died off"? This conversation has been going on for an entire week. I wouldn't declare it dead after two hours.
Tovec 02-03-08, 09:34 PM	"Died off"? This conversation has been going on for an entire week. I wouldn't declare it dead after two hours. I probably mistook this thread for one of my others which I visit. So, the conversation went on for two weeks. Since it has migrated here it hasn't done much.
Flame_Drake 02-03-08, 11:09 PM	I probably mistook this thread for one of my others which I visit. So, the conversation went on for two weeks. Since it has migrated here it hasn't done much. Dude, it migrated today. It`s been up for seven hours, what do you expect? Most people have better things to do on a Sunday then discuss FCII. Drake
Lyndis 02-03-08, 11:54 PM	I love the FC II. However, I think Obeisance points (and to a much smaller extend, Corruption points) are completely stupid, and I ignore them and never use them in my campaign. Seriously. If you don't worship a LE diety, and you're LE, you go to Baator for your afterlife. It is as simple as that. You don't need a point a system.
Totentanz 02-04-08, 01:10 AM	Seriously. If you don't worship a LE diety, and you're LE, you go to Baator for your afterlife. It is as simple as that. Here here! Well said.
CrimsonDeath 02-04-08, 03:43 AM	Dude, it migrated today. It`s been up for seven hours, what do you expect? Most people have better things to do on a Sunday then discuss FCII. Drake Especailly on Superbowl Sunday.
M-bark 02-04-08, 04:43 AM	I'll just repost what I posted in the other thread: That isnt very Asmodeus-ish, is it? It would make SENSE that obeying a leader whom you dont know would land you in hell (as a worthless servant). It would make SENSE that Lawfully executing someone (and this brings up the debate of Law vs Good) would send you to hell. So you're saying that a pure and honorable Lawful Good Paladin who Lawfully executes beings of pure evil (say, demons), is going to hell if s/he executes more than one demon? Good god, if that really is so, I'm surprised that there isn't another Blood War-like war going on in Baator alone between the Paladins and Blackguards.
CrimsonDeath 02-04-08, 08:57 AM	I'll just repost what I posted in the other thread: Ah, my apologies for skipping over you when I did the recap. I'll fix it later (not feeling well right this moment).
faghter_hero 02-04-08, 01:29 PM	For some reason, my players love corruption points. They collect them like candy and try to be as hell destined as possible. It's getting down to competitions over who can get the most corruption points at once without being struck down by a mob of angry everybody. It's getting to the point where nobody will take their gold or give them lodging, and even devils refuse to trade their souls for XP.
ripvanwormer 02-04-08, 08:55 PM	Uh, yeah. You need to be both lawful and evil for your soul to end up in Baator. And even being lawful evil isn't enough: if you're more lawful than evil, it's Acheron for you. If you're more evil than lawful, it's Gehenna. You can safely collect as many obescience points as you want and still end up in Mount Celestia. If you're corrupt but not obescient, you'll end up in Hades or somewhere more chaotic. You need to pass the threshold in both categories to become a Baatorian petitioner.
Bergtann 02-05-08, 07:35 AM	"obeisance points functions like corruption points" only means mechanically. Good grief, some people...
aotrscommander 02-05-08, 07:56 PM	I know I have a low opinion of the Good Powers That Be, but even I don't think they'd be actually so stupid as hand Asmodeus that much power. I mean, seriously, that pretty much means just about every hero I can ever think of would go to hell. Ye gods...As interpreted, you'd be condeming every single authority figure in history to Asmodeus. If you displined five subordinates, you go to hell?! How far does that go? Do preschool teachers go to hell because they tell little Timmy not to pull Lucy's hair a couple of times? Seriously? Three parking tickets and you're going to hell? Or maybe five late library books fees and you get eternal torment? I find myself disbelieving a system whereby every Paladin ever would be going to hell and such company as Superman, Optimus freaking' Prime, Captains Kirk and Picard, General Jack O'Neill, frackin' Spiderman... Actually, scratch that, the following orders of a leader you respect just pretty much doomed every Autobot ever (even Grimlock respected Prime), most Decepticons and the entire crew of every Star Trek series, the Jedi, the Empire, the New Republic, all teams of superheroes...Anybody who has a charismatic leader is stuffed if they do ask ordered three times. I mean, it's even 'respect' not 'like'. And hang on, every time a child follows a rule taught to them without understanding why and thinking it's dumb, they put themself on the path to hell. Doesn't that pretty much mean that Asmodeus gets everyone's souls? Yeah, not buying that, not even for a fraction of a second. Asmodeous is not that good, because not even Jar-Jar Binks is retarded enough to give him that, let alone a mob of Lawful Gods... And I don't beleive the author of FCII is that fraktarded, either...
Urithair 02-06-08, 07:33 PM	"obeisance points functions like corruption points" only means mechanically." That is implied, but a strict reading says otherwise. Asmodeus thinks big, in a RAW vs RAI situation what would the devil do? I didn't like this at first but now I've warmed up to it and have figured a way to work it into my campaign. The pact does give Asmodeus access to souls he shouldn't be able to get, but he rarely uses this ability on good or neutral souls. He doesn't want an invasion by the Upper Planes, aided by the LN and LE gods whose petitioners were stolen, all the while still fighting the blood war. Asmodeus is also secretly afraid of the Rilmani. He mostly uses the pact to steal valuable souls from evil deities. These souls often revel in the recognition and status. These souls are elites, trained by Asmodeus himself. The Powers don't like it, but Asmodeus is benevolent and offers to the gods replacements: the LE souls judged unworthy of becoming Baatzu. :devil: Only rarely does he take a non-evil soul, but Asmodeus is interested in the souls of Paladins who were unquestionably pure and true. These paladins stoically accept their torment, knowing that rescue would cost many lives. Few attempts are made because they have always ended in disaster. Asmodeus guards his treasures well. A lot of people wonder how the pact even got accepted in the first place. Well, turns out that hidden Powers of Law have a vast conspiracy to make every plane a part of Mechanus. Arcadia has already lost a layer to their machinations. Every good and neutral soul kept in Baator is a tip in the balance. When everything is in place the Powers of Law will retroactively enforce the pact, against the will of Asmodeus. When this happens Arcadia, Celestia, and Acheron will lose massive amounts of their essence, while Baator will be flooded with Good and Neutrality. In the end all of these planes will merge with Mechanus. Thats what they plan, anyway.
Drackthor 02-08-08, 09:39 PM	One of the quotes in the OP says how the Pact is about 'balancing' your alignment, when really that's not it. It's not about balance, just pick any non evil Chaotic alignment and you're in like Flinn. Seriously, just saying "well it's signed so Asmodeous wins lol" is just demi-metagaming. If you can't figure out how Asmodeous could convince the Lawful gods to sign the Pact, it honestly seems like it should be ignored.