Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Otto the Bugbear 04-11-07, 12:46 PM	Hey everyone, over the past half-year, I've been working on changing a lot of stuff with the rules. Last night, I got to thinking about the sheer, oppressive volume of planes there are. I started writing up a little blurb of ideas to change it, and I'd like to hear thoughts and opinions about this sort of a change. Anyway, here's what I have written so far... The rain of planes is mostly a pain! There are just flat-out too many planes in the D&D-verse. Start with the number of outer planes, there are 7 heavens, 9 hells, 666 layers of the abyss, and the list goes on. Then add in 4 elemental planes (air, earth, fire, water), the ethereal plane, astral plane, shadow plane, far realm, and dream. Now, add to that fact that they’re ‘infinite’ and the only thing that comes to mind is “Gah!” Why are there that many planes? Endless variety, sure, but if a plane is infinite, can’t the plane actually account for all that endless variety within fewer planes? Instead of Hell being one infinite plane – with 9 infinite planes contained within it – why not just have the gray wastes of hades be a part of Hell? Carceri is just another section of Hell. Gehenna as well. The infinite abyss? It’s an actual abyss in the literal sense of a bottomless pit that is contained within Hell. Oh, and hell is hot, and is thus the source of the element fire. The other planes get much the same treatment. So, how many would there be? I’m looking at 6-8 planes. Yes, you read that right, 6-8 total infinite planes. Within each of those planes would certainly be realms of immense size that can be defined as “The Gray Wastes of Hades” or “Mount Olympia” or “The Demonweb Pits” or “Arborea”. This would also consolidate a few things, like domains and magic items attuned to work with or against specific planes, but that would be covered under those individual entries. So, what am I looking at? Here is the list of planes, and the associated aspects that get rolled into them: Hell – The place of ‘evil’. This is fire and brimstone, the blood war, demons, devils, yugoloths. It contains realms known as Carceri, Gehenna, Demonweb Pits, the Abyss, the River Styx. It’s a place of hatred and fear, of death and destruction, and of endless torment and suffering. The Far Realm – This is a place of madness, where mortals and immortals alike fear to tread. This is one of those places that the game leaves intentionally blank, giving DMs carte blanc to fill in the gaps, and explain where the unexplainable comes from. Pandemonium – This is Chaos incarnate. It is the endless battle of Ysgard, where the reason to fight is the fight itself. It’s hard to describe specifically because as a place of chaos it can and often does contain everything. Shadow – The shadow plane absorbs a few aspects of and becomes a much larger player. It’s a cold place, where darkness and shadow reign. Absorbing the negative energy plane, Undead find Shadow a place much to their liking. Incorporeal creatures are actually alive on the Shadow Plane, with forays into the Prime plane to leech life from the weak or unwary. Heaven – Heaven is goodness and happiness, with frosting and a cherry on top. It is Celestia, Arborea, Olympus, the Seven Heavens, and the Beastlands. It is the birthplace of love and song, of happiness and virtue. Astral – The Astral is an airy place, with small pockets of land that always boast inhabitants. Astral gets Air, Positive Energy Plane, Dream, Spirit, and Light/Sun. Order – The converse of Pandemonium, this realm is a place of Knowledge and Law and of Mechanus. Order also covers Magic, Fate and Time. Wilderness – This represents the untamed wilds and the vast unknown of the prime material plane. It is a place of infinite wilderness, where animals run free and no force can overcome nature for long. Wilderness covers Animals, Savagery, Plant, Nature, Mountain, Strength, Water and Earth. So, those are the eight planes. You’ll notice that any mechanics that deal with alignment have been removed from the material I deal with. I’m a firm believer that alignment is way too subjective, and only really useful when being described from the outside, coming from the viewpoint of the viewer. I still tell players to pick an alignment for their character and try to adhere to it, but there won’t be an argument over whether a concert pianist can be lawful or not, or whether a barbarian that comes from a savage, wild tribe is chaotic (dislikes civilization) or lawful (adheres to his tribe’s customs). So, is this a terribly bad idea, or just extremely complex to change? What do you think? Would something like this work?
AQuebman 04-11-07, 01:13 PM	I say it's all up to the DM running the campaign. While I prefer the variety of the Rain of Planes as you call it I could see a dm taking what you have done and using it or varying it depending on his personal taste. I approve :bounce:
Doom_Linnorm 04-11-07, 02:09 PM	I personaly am convinced it is only a pain for those to lazy to work with, well to put it blunty, large complex things. The complexity is what gives the planes their beauty in my opninion. Lets take Baator as example. Devils come in many shapes and sizes, not as many as demons ofcourse but still in a much to wide veriaty to all live in a dark firey cavern that gradualy gives way to swaps or frozen mountains, why? well becouse first off, it would be boring, second it makes outer planes to similar to the material plane if such a wide veriaty of ecosystems can be found on a single plane, the outer planes are theme based, and evil has to many sub-themes to make one coherent plane, especialy when we are looking at the Lawfull Evil segment. The current Baator makes sense, we have nine different planes that each truly embody a different aspect of what humans would find hell and what fits their rulers. Also the planes are grouped together under the name of Baator, they are all linked into a efficient unit. Having it be one plane containing nine less clearly seperated areas is in fact more confusing then splitting a single realm into nine planes. Then if you stuff Demons and Devils onto a single realm without planar borders..... all hell breaks loose, proabably quite literaly even.
Yadot 04-11-07, 04:35 PM	Do you happen to have the Ebberon Campain Setting? Because in it the planes were reduced to 13 spheres that orbit the material plane. Daanvi, the Perfect Order Dal Quor, the Region of Dreams Dolurrh, the Realm of the Dead Fernia, the Sea of Fire Irian, the Eternal Day Kythri, the Churning Chaos Lamannia, the Twilight Forest Mabar, the Endless Night Risia, the Plain of Ice Shavarath, the Battleground Syrania, the Azure Sky Thelanis, the Faerie Court Xoriat, the Realm of Madness Xoriat is a version of The Far Realms and other evils, Lamannia is the natural and elemental plane, Irian is positive energy and good and so on with the others.
Tarascon 04-11-07, 04:47 PM	I guess you're not a big fan of the Omniverse cosmology, huh?
rironin 04-11-07, 05:13 PM	Why are there that many planes? Endless variety, sure, but if a plane is infinite, can’t the plane actually account for all that endless variety within fewer planes? Instead of Hell being one infinite plane – with 9 infinite planes contained within it – why not just have the gray wastes of hades be a part of Hell? Carceri is just another section of Hell. Gehenna as well. The infinite abyss? It’s an actual abyss in the literal sense of a bottomless pit that is contained within Hell. Oh, and hell is hot, and is thus the source of the element fire. The other planes get much the same treatment.Sooo instead of Carceri and Gehenna being planes, now they're provinces? Really big provinces with all the same locales and dangers and subsections as they had when they were planes, but now they're places on the same plane. So you're taking the word "plane" and replacing it with "region" (or some other term that means "place") but keeping all the complexity. Doesn't that change absolutely nothing, except perhaps certain spells needed to travel between these various locales? Seems like it's just as complicated to me. And despite how infinite many of these planes are supposed to be, that doesn't mean they're infinitely complex. Any one of them is as defined or undefined as your D&D sourcebooks and your own imagination need them to be. In most cases, that isn't much. If you took all the maps in the recent Fiendish Codex books and laid them out, none of them would completely describe an infinite plane. They're not really supposed to. Rather, characters go to hell or heaven or wherever and see a tiny slice. Outside of that, as far as everyone's concerned, there is an endless sea of A) flames and death or B) fluffy clouds and fresh baked cookies as the case may be. Collapsing the planes into single planes that contain all thematically similar things that have been described as separate planes in the past doesn't really make them less complex IMO.
Otto the Bugbear 04-11-07, 08:50 PM	I say it's all up to the DM running the campaign. While I prefer the variety of the Rain of Planes as you call it I could see a dm taking what you have done and using it or varying it depending on his personal taste. I approve :bounce: Thanks. I personaly am convinced it is only a pain for those to lazy to work with, well to put it blunty, large complex things. 1. Go here. (http://dsenchuk.googlepages.com) It's not the complexity or laziness. Perhaps you're just trolling or baiting, or perhaps it's just your nature to be ignorant when you start posts. The complexity is what gives the planes their beauty in my opninion. And perhaps I went too far chopping it down that far. But 731 planes of "infinite" size just seems a little... excessive. Even cutting the Abyss out, that's still 65 planes. Are all of those really needed? And what's the difference between layer 41 and of the abyss and layer 441? If the difference any two of these "infinitely" sized planes is so trivial, what's the point of having two of them? Lets take Baator as example. Devils come in many shapes and sizes, not as many as demons ofcourse but still in a much to wide veriaty to all live in a dark firey cavern that gradualy gives way to swaps or frozen mountains, why? well becouse first off, it would be boring, second it makes outer planes to similar to the material plane if such a wide veriaty of ecosystems can be found on a single plane, the outer planes are theme based, and evil has to many sub-themes to make one coherent plane, especialy when we are looking at the Lawfull Evil segment. Good point. Perhaps I did cut it back too far. Perhaps a "fire and brimstone" layer for Hell could be significantly different enough from a "putrid, fetid jungle" layer, which is again a different place than the "frozen wasteland" layer. But if one of the Evil planes is the "frozen wasteland" layer, do we really need 10 more? Same with "fire and brimstone", or whatever. Oh, and what is "lawful"? The fact is it can't be defined to a point where it actually makes sense for everyone that reads or uses it. The current Baator makes sense, we have nine different planes that each truly embody a different aspect of what humans would find hell and what fits their rulers. Also the planes are grouped together under the name of Baator, they are all linked into a efficient unit. Having it be one plane containing nine less clearly seperated areas is in fact more confusing then splitting a single realm into nine planes. I see what you're saying. The layers of Baator are mostly different enough that they could possibly exist separately. But, again, why have 10 or 15 or 30 "infinite" layers that are, essentially, identical? Then if you stuff Demons and Devils onto a single realm without planar borders..... all hell breaks loose, proabably quite literaly even. Sure, as opposed to the war taking place in an area between realms, it takes place in an area (called a plane) between planes. Do you happen to have the Ebberon Campain Setting? Because in it the planes were reduced to 13 spheres that orbit the material plane. I do have ECS, and I must do this to myself after seeing your post... :banghead: I guess you're not a big fan of the Omniverse cosmology, huh? It mostly started while I was writing up domain powers for the rewrite stuff on my website. Then, I imagined an OotS conversation about looking for the Evil Outer Plane of Torture, and OotS getting lost only to be informed by the fiends they're killing that they've got the wrong address. They're actually on the Evil Outer Plane of Suffering! Then they have to dig out their GPS (Game Plot Salvation) device to find their way to the right plane. Sooo instead of Carceri and Gehenna being planes, now they're provinces? Really big provinces with all the same locales and dangers and subsections as they had when they were planes, but now they're places on the same plane. So you're taking the word "plane" and replacing it with "region" (or some other term that means "place") but keeping all the complexity. Doesn't that change absolutely nothing, except perhaps certain spells needed to travel between these various locales? Seems like it's just as complicated to me. Yeah. Maybe I got a little gung-ho there in reducing it to 8 planes. -=-=-=-= Well, I can see what you're all talking about, and I may have to rethink it. Right now, I'm thinking of reducing it to 7 "main" planes, but making those have "sub-planes" in much the same way Baator has 9 or Celestia has 7. (I'd just roll Far Realm into Pandemonium, the Chaos plane.) I'm still interested in hearing more opinions on the subject though. So, please, keep 'em coming! Cheers Otto :)
Doom_Linnorm 04-12-07, 03:22 AM	I apologise for my crude choice of words Otto, I assure you that even though I recently was baiting a fanatical Pelor worshipper I admitted to it and haven't done so since. (I don't think he didn't realize or cared, I think we both had fun.) I could have started my post in a better manner so again my apologies. I did not mean to bait or troll you, it also clearly stated it was merely my first impression of people that reject the huge amount of planes. Other then that, I think my post was perfectly in order with the topic. Edit: Took a look at your link, ideed you are not lazy, congrats on some seriously good stuff there.
Otto the Bugbear 04-12-07, 07:15 AM	I apologise for my crude choice of words Otto, I assure you that even though I recently was baiting a fanatical Pelor worshipper I admitted to it and haven't done so since. (I don't think he didn't realize or cared, I think we both had fun.) I could have started my post in a better manner so again my apologies. I did not mean to bait or troll you, it also clearly stated it was merely my first impression of people that reject the huge amount of planes. Other then that, I think my post was perfectly in order with the topic. Edit: Took a look at your link, ideed you are not lazy, congrats on some seriously good stuff there. Not a big deal. You'll see that after my initial response, I addressed your points in more detail.
Tequila_Sunrise 04-12-07, 08:31 PM	Well, six to eight layers isn't to my personal taste but you are the DM. Even if I were playing in your game, it wouldn't bother me any more than d&d's standard whacked out cosmology. TS gives you two thumbs up for creativity.
Two_Rivers 04-12-07, 09:45 PM	Hey everyone, over the past half-year, I've been working on changing a lot of stuff with the rules. Last night, I got to thinking about the sheer, oppressive volume of planes there are. I started writing up a little blurb of ideas to change it, and I'd like to hear thoughts and opinions about this sort of a change. Anyway, here's what I have written so far... The rain of planes is mostly a pain! There are just flat-out too many planes in the D&D-verse. Start with the number of outer planes, there are 7 heavens, 9 hells, 666 layers of the abyss, and the list goes on. Then add in 4 elemental planes (air, earth, fire, water), the ethereal plane, astral plane, shadow plane, far realm, and dream. Now, add to that fact that they’re ‘infinite’ and the only thing that comes to mind is “Gah!” Why are there that many planes? Endless variety, sure, but if a plane is infinite, can’t the plane actually account for all that endless variety within fewer planes? Instead of Hell being one infinite plane – with 9 infinite planes contained within it – why not just have the gray wastes of hades be a part of Hell? Carceri is just another section of Hell. Gehenna as well. The infinite abyss? It’s an actual abyss in the literal sense of a bottomless pit that is contained within Hell. Oh, and hell is hot, and is thus the source of the element fire. The other planes get much the same treatment. So, how many would there be? I’m looking at 6-8 planes. Yes, you read that right, 6-8 total infinite planes. Within each of those planes would certainly be realms of immense size that can be defined as “The Gray Wastes of Hades” or “Mount Olympia” or “The Demonweb Pits” or “Arborea”. This would also consolidate a few things, like domains and magic items attuned to work with or against specific planes, but that would be covered under those individual entries. So, what am I looking at? Here is the list of planes, and the associated aspects that get rolled into them: Hell – The place of ‘evil’. This is fire and brimstone, the blood war, demons, devils, yugoloths. It contains realms known as Carceri, Gehenna, Demonweb Pits, the Abyss, the River Styx. It’s a place of hatred and fear, of death and destruction, and of endless torment and suffering. The Far Realm – This is a place of madness, where mortals and immortals alike fear to tread. This is one of those places that the game leaves intentionally blank, giving DMs carte blanc to fill in the gaps, and explain where the unexplainable comes from. Pandemonium – This is Chaos incarnate. It is the endless battle of Ysgard, where the reason to fight is the fight itself. It’s hard to describe specifically because as a place of chaos it can and often does contain everything. Shadow – The shadow plane absorbs a few aspects of and becomes a much larger player. It’s a cold place, where darkness and shadow reign. Absorbing the negative energy plane, Undead find Shadow a place much to their liking. Incorporeal creatures are actually alive on the Shadow Plane, with forays into the Prime plane to leech life from the weak or unwary. Heaven – Heaven is goodness and happiness, with frosting and a cherry on top. It is Celestia, Arborea, Olympus, the Seven Heavens, and the Beastlands. It is the birthplace of love and song, of happiness and virtue. Astral – The Astral is an airy place, with small pockets of land that always boast inhabitants. Astral gets Air, Positive Energy Plane, Dream, Spirit, and Light/Sun. Order – The converse of Pandemonium, this realm is a place of Knowledge and Law and of Mechanus. Order also covers Magic, Fate and Time. Wilderness – This represents the untamed wilds and the vast unknown of the prime material plane. It is a place of infinite wilderness, where animals run free and no force can overcome nature for long. Wilderness covers Animals, Savagery, Plant, Nature, Mountain, Strength, Water and Earth. So, those are the eight planes. You’ll notice that any mechanics that deal with alignment have been removed from the material I deal with. I’m a firm believer that alignment is way too subjective, and only really useful when being described from the outside, coming from the viewpoint of the viewer. I still tell players to pick an alignment for their character and try to adhere to it, but there won’t be an argument over whether a concert pianist can be lawful or not, or whether a barbarian that comes from a savage, wild tribe is chaotic (dislikes civilization) or lawful (adheres to his tribe’s customs). So, is this a terribly bad idea, or just extremely complex to change? What do you think? Would something like this work? 2 deals, how about planes with sub-planes? And where can I find the dream plane?
Otto the Bugbear 04-13-07, 12:19 PM	2 deals, how about planes with sub-planes? And where can I find the dream plane? That's likely where it'll end up -- sort of. Just change the names to "planes and layers" and it's still a much-needed reduction compared to what is currently out there. Dream is part of the Astral Plane. Ever dream you're falling? (Astral Plane) Ever dream you're falling through the air? (Astral Plane)
sciborg2 04-13-07, 12:52 PM	I think its more about themes of the campaign. The planes definitely don't work for every theme, but rather it provides a background for the D&D foundations of four elements, life/death, and the alignments. By placing all of Evil into a single plane, it makes me curious about the nature of the Bloodwar and the Yugoloth purity obsession. My recent obsession with Malazan Book of the Fallen has me looking at the idea of planes related to specific racial histories. Gaiman's Sandman had the seven planes relate to the seven endless.
Khael 04-13-07, 12:55 PM	So.... why do we have demons, 'loths AND devils here? To put it simply, I personally don't like the idea, and think it'll take loads of tinkering to make it work - monsters etc. You bascially will need to rewrite a lot of monsters based on what they for this to work, to name a few: Dream vestige (An undead(negative) monster who lives on the postive?!), demons, devils, 'loths, angels, eladrin etc. They're very nature is central to the planes they come from/are born from, so in effect we have fiends, and celestials, but which are the 'fiend', since if you just have one under the title of evil, why do you need three. In other words technically as the 'most' Evil of the three, hell should be ruleds by 'loths, demons and devils never existed, as an example. Thoguh maybe demons might exist on Pandemonium by this, but since they have everything else to war on, the blood war never came about.
RoninFrosty 04-13-07, 01:24 PM	I've got three planes: The Material Plane, the Plane of Heaven, and the Plane of Hell. The Astral Plane and the Ethereal Plane are subplanes of the Material Plane. All the deities (my own) and celestials are from the plane of Heaven, all the demons and devils are from Hell, and the Material Plane was originally created as a battleground for the two opposing forces, though now it's inhabited by your typical D&D races.
sciborg2 04-13-07, 01:28 PM	It might make sense to bring the loths back to their original function as mercenaries with Devils and Demons warring over Hell.
Khael 04-13-07, 01:33 PM	It might make sense to bring the loths back to their original function as mercenaries with Devils and Demons warring over Hell. But where do any of them comes from? If the generic alignment system is changed so its not as important here, why do three forms of fiend, each for an now unimportant alignment, exist, when one is needed: fiends of evil. Demons might have a case for being shunted to Pandemonium, but in effect devils may as well be retconned out of existance, since modrons are better holders for pure law, unless they exist only to serve as 'law out of control' (the Agent Smith to the matrix in effect).
Orion72 04-13-07, 01:45 PM	Without elaborating or justifying my opinion... I like it. :D
Lina_Inverse 04-15-07, 02:29 AM	Where do the LG outsiders go? Where do the CG outsiders go? Can't expect them to live together, they hate each other. I don't think theres too many, although the border planes could go. The minimum acceptable would be 9 out and 4 inner planes. Though the vast quanititys of planes are neet and i like most of them.
sciborg2 04-15-07, 02:57 AM	Can't expect them to live together, they hate each other. No according to any of the 3e corebooks or supplements...hell does even my planescape stuff say that?
Lina_Inverse 04-15-07, 03:00 AM	No according to any of the 3e corebooks or supplements...hell does even my planescape stuff say that? Well do LG people hate LE people? If Yes then CG and LG ain't getting along either.
Return of the Flumph 04-15-07, 03:20 AM	Well do LG people hate LE people? If Yes then CG and LG ain't getting along either. Exactly. Alignment exemplars hate other alignment exemplars if they are two or more steps away on either alignment axis. Some people get the mistaken impression that "good" outsiders are more accepting and tolerant of each other than neutral or evil ones. This is not true. Archons are constantly murdering and raping the Eladrins, and Eladrin terrorists set the cities of Arcadia on fire and send guerrilla attacks against the Archons, kidnapping and selling them into slavery. Both of them are still the very epitome of good; its just that some are LAWFUL good while others are CHAOTIC good, so they slaughter and torture each other mercilessly.
Khael 04-15-07, 07:56 AM	The Archons and Eladrins are indeed in disike of one another. As I've said though, the advantage here is: Since there is no LG plane, CG plane, and NG plane, technically none of those three exist, only a G plane, so we only one one form of 'good' exemplar there, just like there is only one E fiendkin. Demons and eladrins are the only possible exceptions to this because they are chaotic and opposites and who better for an eternal war on Pandemonium? Devils and Archons are dead and buried (unless they assumed the roles of Good and Evil, which I suspect 'Loths rank better for) since clearly their would be eternal war is disorderly, or chaotic at worse. This is again part of my dislike: The fact for it to work, you either have to rewrite most of planar history, since now instead of the blood war, you have G vs E, and you even at worse have to redesign the entire celestial/fiend legion so they properly encompass their alignment. That or have it so suddenly all this happens, in which case hell sees one to two fiendkins find out the real meaning of genocide, as do the celestials, and? Fire elementals are now lords of hell. Or would be if hellfire dragons didn't suddenly find themselves all regrouped by the reshuffle since their now on the same plane, and irradicate the buggers encroaching on their 'yard. Assuming they weren't the ones who were genociding the fiends to begin with... It could happen. Actually though the latter could make for an destructive, apocalyptic, but interesting campaign... I rant too much don't I... But I do believe even for a homebrew taking this into life would be a lot of work, and really quite needless. Working off the official stuff, yuo'd have to do hell of a load of work to flesh out everything (If hell has hellhounds, would canoloths bereally needed for evil now? for example.)
Otto the Bugbear 04-15-07, 08:26 AM	Where do the LG outsiders go? Where do the CG outsiders go? Can't expect them to live together, they hate each other. :rofl: That's more :censored: up than a football bat. Alignment 'good' = HATE! "Hate! Hate! I'm your Hate. I'm your hate when you want love." *-*-*-*-*- Here, everyone check this out... A character who is honorable, adaptable, trustworthy, flexible, reliable, and loves freedom is a basically stand-up fellow, and meets the check marks for being "ultimate Law" and "ultimate Chaos". There aren't any contradictory adjectives there. While Law and Chaos are supposed to be opposed forces, there's nothing antithetical about the descriptions in the book.
Khael 04-15-07, 09:03 AM	I agree that to the best of my knoweldge, the two do not hate one another (With demons and devils as we know its more bragging rights over which is 'Evilest', strongest, and plus someone's cousin Eric got flayed alive by the other side five centuries back...and Eric is very PO'd by this fact), however it is known Eladrins and Archons don't like each other, and would probably go to war, if they didn't have the fact they're on the same side. I don't however expect this fact will remain the same if the two were forced into the same home. I do suspect the archons will in effect either hurl the Ealdrins out, or up sticks themselves (Probably the former) since in terms of alignment its like putting the two chalk-and-cheese cops together. But this time the by-the-book one stays to the book, and tries to arrests the other. But then I still stand that they wouldn't be forced together as neither exist as exemplars of LG, or CG anymore. They're just G.
Return of the Flumph 04-15-07, 11:34 AM	I agree that to the best of my knoweldge, the two do not hate one another (With demons and devils as we know its more bragging rights over which is 'Evilest', strongest, and plus someone's cousin Eric got flayed alive by the other side five centuries back...and Eric is very PO'd by this fact), however it is known Eladrins and Archons don't like each other, and would probably go to war, if they didn't have the fact they're on the same side. I don't however expect this fact will remain the same if the two were forced into the same home. I do suspect the archons will in effect either hurl the Ealdrins out, or up sticks themselves (Probably the former) since in terms of alignment its like putting the two chalk-and-cheese cops together. But this time the by-the-book one stays to the book, and tries to arrests the other. I know what you mean. I get sick and tired of people thinking that good is about tolerance, kindness, and peace. Good is supposed to be aggressive, alienating, and totally ****ing psychotic.
sciborg2 04-15-07, 01:46 PM	Well do LG people hate LE people? If Yes then CG and LG ain't getting along either. You don't have to hate someone to oppose them. And while Good and Evil are diametrically opposed, note that the interaction of Law and Chaos on a physical level makes up the Multiverse. That's my take, your campaign may get more out of LG and CG being as opposed to each other as they are to their evil counterparts. I still haven't seen or don't recall a published book making this claim though.
Tarascon 04-15-07, 03:49 PM	The difference between eladrins/archons and baatezu/tana'ri is that the good guys tolerate each other and suppress the urge to hurt each other. Not so with evil. Or maybe not. Really, this answers this thread's own question. They're have to be so many planes to account for so many world views, alignments, and philosophies. How the Outsider in question would act depends on their plane of origin. An archon from Arborea would not tolerate an eladrin from Ysgard, but would be on decent terms with a like-minded baatezu, provided the baatezu in question, like the archon, was more inclined towards Law. Likewise, an archon from Bytopia, which is more Good than Law, would accept the aforementioned eladrin and not tolerate a baatezu at all. In the end though, there is no right answer.
PunkRockBard 04-16-07, 11:00 AM	Exactly. Alignment exemplars hate other alignment exemplars if they are two or more steps away on either alignment axis. Some people get the mistaken impression that "good" outsiders are more accepting and tolerant of each other than neutral or evil ones. This is not true. Archons are constantly murdering and raping the Eladrins, and Eladrin terrorists set the cities of Arcadia on fire and send guerrilla attacks against the Archons, kidnapping and selling them into slavery. Both of them are still the very epitome of good; its just that some are LAWFUL good while others are CHAOTIC good, so they slaughter and torture each other mercilessly. I cordially disagree with this :). Chaotic Evil wars with Lawful Evil. They are evil. Chaotic Neutral and Lawful Neutral mystify and disturb each other. There have been times of violence between the two. There isn't an active war against each other. Lawful Good and Chaotic Good often do not understand each other. Each can become totally impatient and angered with the other alignment. This being said, they tolerate and even accept each other. I believe this. So many times, people seem to overlook that pesky second word ("good") in Lawful Good or Chaotic Good. In Complete Mage....there is an illustration of a Ghaele Eladrin, a Hound Archon, and a Deva sitting together in a mixed climate caused by Conjuration Magic. They appear to be enjoying the moment...talking as friends. i know this probably irked many purists...but it was much closer to how i view the celestials. i loved it. Celestia..despite its narrow nature...is described as a place of mercy, charity, and understanding. Arborea is a place of beauty, passion, and idealism. Warring and killing each other over their different interpretations of good is hardly..well...good.
Return of the Flumph 04-16-07, 02:24 PM	Now for my serious responce, The forces of good do not hate each other. They may disagree on how best to get things done, but it never comes to blows.Although each facet of Good believes itself to be the "best," they are tolerant enough to see that other systems work just (or almost) as well, and do not try to impose their standards on one another. Your cosmology sounds fine to me, perhaps because mine is almost exactly like it. I too was annoyed by the overabundance of planes in the standard Great Wheel cosmology, and likewise decided to condense their environments into a few, larger realms. What I have: Limbo: Bordering on the Far Realms, Limbo is where reality is not fully formedd or stable. It is the home of Chaos, and also doubles as the realm of Dreams. Mechanus: An infinite machine world in the center of the universe, this Lawful plane keeps the others stuck together. Heaven: The home of all Good examplars, lawful, neutral, and chaotic. They each have their own territories in Heave, though there are many shared regions. Hell: The home of all Evil examplars, lawful, neutral, and chaotic. The three fiendish races make endless war on each other, each wishing to dominate the entirety of Hell. The Elemental Planes: As in the Great Wheel. The Astral Plane: As in the Great Wheel. The Ethereal Plane: The Ethereal Plane is like a skin that surrounds all the other planes, acting as a buffer between them and the Astral. Positive and Negative Planes: As in the Great Wheel. So yeah, everything else is either a region in one of the above, or a demiplane.
vegetalss4 04-16-07, 02:33 PM	am i the only one who see that the op do not have a martial plane. so where do your player start??
Khael 04-16-07, 02:56 PM	am i the only one who see that the op do not have a martial plane. so where do your player start?? The material (The discussion is about how he rearranged the outer/inner planes, such as the elemental planes, astral etc. Material, though linked is still the material, not an inner or outer plane.)
Otto the Bugbear 04-16-07, 06:46 PM	am i the only one who see that the op do not have a martial plane. so where do your player start?? It depends on what they're playing. The 'normal' races start on the Prime, which isn't an inner or outer plane. The material plane is described in the section about the game world, not in the section about the planes. Elves start in the frying pan. :rimshot:
Two_Rivers 04-24-07, 07:49 PM	That's likely where it'll end up -- sort of. Just change the names to "planes and layers" and it's still a much-needed reduction compared to what is currently out there. Dream is part of the Astral Plane. Ever dream you're falling? (Astral Plane) Ever dream you're falling through the air? (Astral Plane) What book may I find the dream plane on?
sicsemperjohn 04-24-07, 10:46 PM	The realm of Dreams is actually on the Ethereal plane, if I'm not mistaken. It's in the 2E supplement for the Ethereal plane, and I think it is also mentioned in the MotP.
sciborg2 04-25-07, 01:43 AM	I think in MotP its a separate plane.
ArcTan 04-25-07, 06:09 PM	Exactly. Alignment exemplars hate other alignment exemplars if they are two or more steps away on either alignment axis. Some people get the mistaken impression that "good" outsiders are more accepting and tolerant of each other than neutral or evil ones. This is not true. Archons are constantly murdering and raping the Eladrins, and Eladrin terrorists set the cities of Arcadia on fire and send guerrilla attacks against the Archons, kidnapping and selling them into slavery. Both of them are still the very epitome of good; its just that some are LAWFUL good while others are CHAOTIC good, so they slaughter and torture each other mercilessly. ...You are kidding, right?
ArcTan 04-25-07, 06:12 PM	I agree that to the best of my knoweldge, the two do not hate one another (With demons and devils as we know its more bragging rights over which is 'Evilest', strongest, and plus someone's cousin Eric got flayed alive by the other side five centuries back...and Eric is very PO'd by this fact), however it is known Eladrins and Archons don't like each other, and would probably go to war, if they didn't have the fact they're on the same side. Er, if all you mean is their moral alignment, Baatezu and Tanar'ri are *also* on the same side. Except they're not -- Evil folks hate other Evil folks and smash the hell out of each other given a chance. That's the whole thing -- the thing that makes Good different from Evil is that Good sees all other Good as being on the same side, if it can. (It even tries to see Evil as being on the same side, by rationalizing that by opposing Evil you're giving Evil a chance to redeem itself or at least have something better replace it.) Evil is on no side but its own, including other Evil.
ArcTan 04-25-07, 06:12 PM	I think in MotP its a separate plane. Yes, the Region of Dreams is a separate plane. A variant plane, too -- it doesn't exist by default.
Khael 04-26-07, 04:57 AM	Er, if all you mean is their moral alignment, Baatezu and Tanar'ri are *also* on the same side. Except they're not -- Evil folks hate other Evil folks and smash the hell out of each other given a chance. That's the whole thing -- the thing that makes Good different from Evil is that Good sees all other Good as being on the same side, if it can. (It even tries to see Evil as being on the same side, by rationalizing that by opposing Evil you're giving Evil a chance to redeem itself or at least have something better replace it.) Evil is on no side but its own, including other Evil. I didn't mean the alignment angle, of on the same side. But rather than go into the alignment argument I was going more by how they act, where angels wouldn't want to live With eladrins, but they won't go randomly killing them and vice versa, while fiends war over which is ultimately the greater form of evil or similar. But I was pointing out eladrin and angels only put up with one another since they are both 'good', rather than following their respective evil counterparts into inter-alignment war. Yes, I am putting it very badly still.
JoAT 04-27-07, 04:00 AM	:rofl: That's more :censored: up than a football bat. Alignment 'good' = HATE! "Hate! Hate! I'm your Hate. I'm your hate when you want love." *-*-*-*-*- For some reason, I thought of this: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=801 (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=801) As for the planar set-up... I don't like it. Not because there's too much wrong with it, but because for all the work you'd be doing, very little actual change would result. You end up with a set of D&D planes that have subregions that work and act just like the previous planes, or else a composite plane (and I'll admit, some of those are really cool, like the Shadow composite) that needs alot of work to get in order, and once in order, again acts just like the old planes, just all mashed together. When simpliying cosmologies, really streamlining the various planes seems best to me; My two, reccent cosmologies are as follows: Prime Planes: Material, Spirit (where most gods and spirits live), Shadow (where the few outcast gods live); all three are direct reflections of one another. Transitive: Mirror, Faerie (a parasite plane that consists of roadways and imagination), Dream (also sort of a Prime plane, as it reflects the world directly , but has layers that allow people to easily contact each other and move through-out the world) and the Far Realm (the source of all nightmares, reachable only via the Dream plane, and connects the cosmology to others). Mysterious/Unknown: The place of Death, the realm of the One God. Elementals are related beings are summoned directly from the land, and most outsiders are, in fact, insiders, being summoned directly from within one's soul (casters have summon lists, for specific creatures). An even smaller one: Prime 'planes': Material 1, Material 2; These two planes are good/evil doppels of one another, and each is, in fact the domain of a single, primal god. Transitive planes: 'Astral' (limited to a within a very small shell around the world, except at the Pole), Pole (a physical, thrid world within the Astral that connectsthe two worlds together. The center of the pole is open to the rest of the cosmologies, and occasionally, creatures and beings get swept up onto the Pole, from which they cannot leave). Other 'Planes': The other gods float just at the border the shell that protects each prime from the rest of the multiverse, standing watch, and forming a demi-plane within their minds/souls. Not too impressive, I know, but the idea is, if you really want to cut down on the amount of planes you have, look at what you want first (especially on a future gaming level - if you're going to be running stuff like Demonweb Pits or Shackled City, you want and need an Abyss. If not, then there's really no point to making one if you can just as easily stuff the demons somewhere else that makes sense.) then begin the act of forming the planes - at the ultimate level of simplicity, Heaven, Hell, Earth, and maybe Astral, for all those transitive-oriented spells to work can do quite well. And for some constructive stuff: For Hell, perhaps you might wish to consider creating 7 primary internment camps (one for each deadly sin), watched over by the various devils, with the 'loths serving as actual inhabitants between the camps, acting as, well, the fairly selfish grease that oils the wheels of the plane (the service industry, basically), but with the devils still in charge. Circling this is the River Styx, and beyond it a vast plain, rent through with rifts and tears, and mountains in the far distance. On this far shore of the Styx reside the demons, beings whom were unable to pay Charon's toll, and so must forever reside within the outer dark(beings such as orbyths, if I spelled that correctly, and demon lords would be the souls of beings so ancient as to defy current logic, or those whose own force of wickedness caused them to be turned back from the gates of hell, for fear of them taking over). Just a thought that might help out with the creation of that plane.
Two_Rivers 04-27-07, 12:30 PM	I think in MotP its a separate plane. What does MotP stand for Manual of the Planes?
Zonhin 04-27-07, 10:25 PM	What does MotP stand for Manual of the Planes? Yeah, it does