Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kihon 03-09-08, 11:13 PM	Could Tiamat be killed on first layer of Hell, in her layer? Assume that she has one elder wyrm of each type of dragon with her, full access to "the horde" of magical items from across the worlds, numerous devils running around for protection and a Hellfire wyrm or two also. She is sure to have an alliance with at least one duke of hell perhaps more. So my question - could an epic level party (say average of 50) take her out? I know it's all "in theory" - "what's the party's make up" - ect... Lots of random questions about their access to high level magic items & spells. Perhaps I should have posted in the epic section, but I decided to post here because we are talking about an intermediate power vs. mortals (or quasi-mortals). I guess I'm trying to be more random. Before I put dozens (or hundreds) of hours into trying to create this encounter - if Tiamat and her allies were ran well, could the group even possibly stand a chance?
Shemeska the Marauder 03-10-08, 12:21 AM	Well, Tiamat doesn't have any special status or powers on the first layer of Hell. Within her lair/deific domain yes, but not on Avernus as a whole. It would probably be -much- easier to kill her outside of her lair, but it's possible inside as well. I'm not the person to ask about numbers though, since I don't tend to give distinct stats to gods and godlike beings as a rule. But there are all sorts of non-game mechanics related ways to kill a deity that you could have a high level group use to take her down.
Kain_Darkwind 03-10-08, 11:27 AM	So my question - could an epic level party (say average of 50) take her out? I know it's all "in theory" - "what's the party's make up" - ect... Lots of random questions about their access to high level magic items & spells. Perhaps I should have posted in the epic section, but I decided to post here because we are talking about an intermediate power vs. mortals (or quasi-mortals). Depends on what stats you are using for her. I've got her as a 69HD dragon and estimated around CR 50. Manual of the Planes has her as a 49HD dragon, CR 25. (Slightly low..probably closer to 30) Deities and Demigods has her as a DvR 10, 49HD dragon. Your 50th level characters probably aren't going to beat that without some serious cheese. Largely because her hits threaten immediate death (Fort DC 30 + damage dealt, not a death effect), but also due to Divine Shield, Divine Blast and Alter Reality. And she's immune to every spell 5th level or under. As written, Tiamat can stomp a hole through the chests of every one of the Lords of the Nine without breaking a sweat. In her divine realm, she doesn't have any game-breaking powers above and beyond the ones she possesses out of it because she is a lesser deity. However, Tiamat's official stats could use some revision no matter how you look at it, the Draconomicon in particular has a lot of feats, spells and such that would be ideal for her to make use of.
Kihon 03-11-08, 07:11 PM	Ok - so thoughts on how a group would lure her out of her massive cave? How do you get her out of her divine realm and fight her on the first layer of Hell - where things are a LITTLE more neutral? To answer a couple of the above questions. I am using the Deities & Demigods version, so she'll be tough. The group has access to a few minor artifacts, and most everything in the epic book. They are very experienced players and tend to maximize their chances. That's why the questions - they are good and if I am going to run this I want it to be the best I can make it.
Kain_Darkwind 03-11-08, 07:52 PM	Ok - so thoughts on how a group would lure her out of her massive cave? How do you get her out of her divine realm and fight her on the first layer of Hell - where things are a LITTLE more neutral? Steal her treasure. Slaughter her great wyrm cohorts (which should be part of any 'Slay Tiamat' adventure). Wyrmlingnap her eggs. Summon an aspect of Bahamut just outside her domain. To answer a couple of the above questions. I am using the Deities & Demigods version, so she'll be tough. The group has access to a few minor artifacts, and most everything in the epic book. They are very experienced players and tend to maximize their chances. That's why the questions - they are good and if I am going to run this I want it to be the best I can make it. Well, ask yourself these questions. 1. Can Tiamat hit the party members' Armor Class? Always (1 or higher), Sometimes (10 or higher), nearly never (19 or higher)? 2. Can the party members who rely on attacks hit her armor class? Same qualifications. 3. Can the spellcasters beat her spell resistance? Same qualifications. 4. Will Tiamat make her saves? 5. Will the party make their saves vs her special attacks? 6. Is the party immune to her poison or breath weapons? 50th level characters should be capable of armor classes over 90. That means Tiamat can't hit them. They should be capable of save bonuses over +56. That means her DCs will usually fail. With a ring of evasion, that makes her breath weapons useless. Her spell resistance of 42 is auto-passed by 41st level casters or higher. If you use the divine damage reduction, her DR is X/epic. That is a non-factor in a fight against 50th level characters. And so on. Many typical attacks will be useless against the party. Meanwhile, she has Alertness for a feat choice instead of Heighten Breath or something useful. She has Blind-Fight, despite having blindsight at a 10 mile range. She has Combat Casting despite having a Concentration modifier high enough to take a -50 penalty and still cast 9th level spells defensively on a natural 1. Her ability scores look lackluster even compared to a gold dragon's. A pit fiend is wiser than she is and stronger for its size. (Large Tiamat would have 25 Str vs 37, a theoretical Colossal Pit fiend would have 61 vs her 49.) You can use and frustrate your PCs with the Deities and Demigods' Tiamat. Making a Fort save vs death every round will eventually lead to a dead PC. Her smite (10 per day) can probably hit PCs even if her normal attacks cannot. She can use 5 spell like abilities (or bites, or breaths, or combination thereof) every round, which include time stop, summon monster IX, disintegrate, implosion and harm. A time stop every round followed by summon monsters will quickly fill the area with silly distracting threats. Her actual spells (sorcerer and cleric) don't have a caster level, so you will have to set it. Divine Shield and Blast will hurt PCs chances at actually managing a kill. The shield absorbs up to 100 hit points and she can use 15 of them per day as a free action. Blast deals 19d12 damage and is a ranged touch attack. But for all that, about half of Tiamat's combat ability (the dragon half, rather than the god half) is useless against 50th level PCs. You may want to strongly consider one of the following. 1. Build your own Tiamat to properly challenge 50th level PCs. (I'd suggest looking at mine for starters, or modify a CR 35-40ish force/prismatic dragon into Tiamat) OR.... 2. At least change Tiamat's feat and spell selection. Get rid of crap like I mentioned above and look into the Draconomicon for useful stuff. Her spell selection is almost as useless as her feat selection. Why does she have chain lightning when she has a 24d8 lightning bolt breath weapon with a higher DC? Why does she have trap the soul and soul bind as sorcerer spells? Especially when soul bind is a cleric spell which she can cast spontaneously through those slots? All of her sorcerer spells that can be cast as cleric spells should go. For your reference, my Tiamat: Tiamat Colossal Dragon (Cosmic, Evil, Lawful) Hit Dice: 69d12 + 1104 (1,932 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 90 ft., fly 400 ft. (good), swim 90 ft. Armor Class: 102 (+17 deflection, +15 insight, +68 natural, -8 size), touch 34, flat-footed 87 Base Attack/Grapple: +69/+107 Attack: 5 bites +83 melee (6d8 + 22) Full Attack: 5 bites +83 melee (6d8 + 22) and 2 wings +77 melee (4d8 + 11) and tail sting +77 melee (6d6 + 33 plus poison) Space/Reach: 60 ft. /60 ft. Special Attacks: Breath weapons, crush, frightful presence, improved snatch, poison, spells, spell-like abilities, tail sweep Special Qualities: Alternate form, blindsense 1400 ft, cosmic entity, damage reduction 35/greater epic, good and mithril, darkvision, immune to acid, cold, electricity and fire, magical sleep, paralysis and poison, multiple heads, low-light vision, regeneration 20, resistance to sonic 30, see invisibility 1400 ft., spell resistance 60, water breathing Saves: Fort +52, Ref +36, Will +57 Abilities: Str 55, Dex 10, Con 43, Int 42, Wis 40, Cha 45 Skills: Appraise +88, Bluff +89, Concentration +88, Diplomacy +79, Disguise +89 (+97 acting), Escape Artist +40, Gather Information +89, Handle Animal +62, Heal +63, Hide +64, Intimidate +97, Knowledge (arcana) +86, Knowledge (history) +81, Knowledge (nobility) +76, Knowledge (nature) +81, Knowledge (the planes) +81, Knowledge (religion) +86, Listen +88, Move Silently +72, Search +56, Sense Motive +87, Spellcraft +96, Spot +87, Survival +55 (+63 above ground, +63 planes, +59 tracking), Swim +92 Feats: Cleave, Clinging Breath, Corrupt Breath, Dark Speech, Empower Spell, Enlarge Breath, Expedious Metamagic, Extend Spell, Fly-by Attack, Great Cleave, Hover, Improved Snatch, Iron Will, Lingering Breath, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Recover Breath, Shape Breath, Snatch, Snatch and Swallow, Violate Breath, Wingover Epic Feats: Epic Spellcasting, Epic Will Climate/Terrain: Avernus, First of the Nine Hells Organization: Solitary (unique) Challenge Rating: 50 Treasure: Quintuple Standard Alignment: Lawful Evil Breath Weapon (Cs): Tiamat possesses five different breath weapons, one for each head. Not including metabreath effects, Tiamat must wait 1d4-1 rounds between using the breath weapon of a particular head again. Black: 35d4 points of acid damage. 200 ft. line. (Fortitude DC 60 half) Blue: 35d8 points of electricity damage. 200 ft. line. (Reflex DC 60 half) Green: 35d6 points of acid damage. 100 ft. cone. (Fortitude DC 60 half) Red: 35d10 points of fire damage. 100 ft. cone. (Reflex DC 60 half) White: 17d6 points of cold damage. 100 ft. cone. (Reflex DC 60 half) Crush (Ex): Area 60 ft. x 60 ft.; Huge or smaller opponents take 6d8 + 33 points of bludgeoning damage, and must succeed on a DC 60 reflex save or be pinned. Frightful Presence (Ex): 500 ft. radius, 68 HD or fewer, Will DC 61 negates. Creatures with less than 20 HD are panicked for 5d6 rounds if they fail a save against Tiamat's frightful presence. Cosmic dragons are immune to Tiamat's frightful presence. Tiamat can choose whether or not she affects other dragons and lawful or evil creatures with her frightful presence. Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 60 negates. 5d6 Con initial/5d6 Con secondary. Snatch (Ex): Against Gargantuan or smaller creatures, bite (6d8+22)/round. Spells: Tiamat casts spells as a 40th level sorcerer and 40th level cleric. Cleric spells per day 6/10/10/10/9/9/8/8/7/7; Caster level 40th, DC 25+spell level Sorcerer spells per day 6/11/10/10/10/10/9/9/9/9; Caster level 40th, DC 27+spell level Spell-like Abilities: Always active – detect chaos, detect good, detect magic, detect scrying; At will – command plants, confusion, contagion, control weather, corrupt water, darkness, desecrate, dispel chaos, dispel good, dispelling breath, dominate monster, false vision, fog cloud, greater teleport, gust of wind, hold monster, inflict critical wounds, maddening whispers, mass inflict light wounds, mesmerizing glare, mirage arcana, mislead, nondetection, plant growth, shatter, shield of law, suggestion, summon swarm, unholy aura, unholy blight, veil, ventriloquism; 5/day – blasphemy, blinding breath, create undead, dictum, discern location, disintegrate, earthquake, eyebite, harm, implosion, order's wrath, polymorph any object, screen, summon monster IX (evil or lawful only), stunning breath; 1/day – breath admixture, enervating breath, gate, time stop. Caster level 69th, DC 27+ spell level. Tail Sweep (Ex): Half circle 120 ft. in diameter; Large or smaller opponents take 4d8 + 33 points of bludgeoning damage and are knocked prone, Reflex DC 60 halves damage and negates being knocked prone. Alternate Form (Ex): Tiamat can take a new form as a move-equivalent action. Tiamat retains all her extraordinary, supernatural and spell-like abilities in her new form, and takes on only the appearance of the form. If Tiamat takes on a form of a different size, she takes a -4 penalty to Strength for every size she is under Colossal, otherwise her statistics remain the same. Cosmic Entity: Tiamat has a +10 bonus on rank checks. Multiple Heads (Ex): Tiamat may make a standard action with each of her heads every turn. This includes using a breath weapon or spell-like ability. Tiamat can cast one spell each round, which counts as a standard action for one of her heads. Regeneration (Ex): Epic good aligned weapons deal Tiamat lethal damage. Water Breathing (Ex): Tiamat can breath under water normally. Her breath weapons function normally underwater. The cosmic subtype basically means she has the divine immunities of a god. The rank check means that she rolls 1d20 + 10 vs a god's 1d20 + DvR to determine whether or not her divine immunities are overcome or penetrated. It isn't important for your purposes, I just didn't like the "higher rank = win" that Deities and Demigods introduced and turned it into an opposed roll.
Tovec 03-11-08, 08:21 PM	Could Tiamat be killed on first layer of Hell, in her layer? Assume that she has one elder wyrm of each type of dragon with her, full access to "the horde" of magical items from across the worlds, numerous devils running around for protection and a Hellfire wyrm or two also. She is sure to have an alliance with at least one duke of hell perhaps more. So my question - could an epic level party (say average of 50) take her out? I know it's all "in theory" - "what's the party's make up" - ect... Lots of random questions about their access to high level magic items & spells. Perhaps I should have posted in the epic section, but I decided to post here because we are talking about an intermediate power vs. mortals (or quasi-mortals). I guess I'm trying to be more random. Before I put dozens (or hundreds) of hours into trying to create this encounter - if Tiamat and her allies were ran well, could the group even possibly stand a chance? My level 23-24 party of 5 killed Tiamat. A lot of help goes to the Half-Dragon Barbarian (full) "Half-Ogre" who single handedly flipped the *****. Meaning, he grappled her a few times. They were able to kill her in 5 rounds. I went a little easy because they weren't up to their full strength (missing party members) but I'd say a level 50 should have no problem.
Kain_Darkwind 03-12-08, 01:09 AM	My level 23-24 party of 5 killed Tiamat. A lot of help goes to the Half-Dragon Barbarian (full) "Half-Ogre" who single handedly flipped the *****. Meaning, he grappled her a few times. They were able to kill her in 5 rounds. I went a little easy because they weren't up to their full strength (missing party members) but I'd say a level 50 should have no problem. A good example of a DM not using the enemy to its capacity. Since Tiamat can cast cleric spells spontaneously, she should have had no trouble putting up freedom of movement to keep from being grappled. Also, she can teleport and planeshift at will. There is no possible way 23-24th level characters can beat her if she is played to her potential.
Derren S. 03-12-08, 06:38 AM	My level 23-24 party of 5 killed Tiamat. A lot of help goes to the Half-Dragon Barbarian (full) "Half-Ogre" who single handedly flipped the *****. Meaning, he grappled her a few times. They were able to kill her in 5 rounds. I went a little easy because they weren't up to their full strength (missing party members) but I'd say a level 50 should have no problem. Was the barbarian gargantuan? Because otherwise he couldn't grapple Tiamat.
Kain_Darkwind 03-12-08, 10:00 AM	Was the barbarian gargantuan? Because otherwise he couldn't grapple Tiamat. Are you discussing the facts (as in, with Strength and attack bonus and size modifiers, this couldn't happen at this level) or a rule (creatures can only grapple with creatures one size category larger than them)? I don't see this rule in the Player's Handbook or SRD.
Derren S. 03-12-08, 10:04 AM	Are you discussing the facts (as in, with Strength and attack bonus and size modifiers, this couldn't happen at this level) or a rule (creatures can only grapple with creatures one size category larger than them)? I don't see this rule in the Player's Handbook or SRD. The rule Grapple ... Step 3 Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are. In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie. It would work if Tiamat starts the grapple, succeeds and then fails to make any other gapple check to withdraw from teh grapple but the barbarian couldn't start the grapple on his own unless he was (considered) gargantuan.
Kain_Darkwind 03-12-08, 11:00 AM	It would work if Tiamat starts the grapple, succeeds and then fails to make any other gapple check to withdraw from teh grapple but the barbarian couldn't start the grapple on his own unless he was (considered) gargantuan. Ah. I've missed that since the onset of 3rd edition. Along with any DMs I've played for. The Str and Size advantage has always kept it from being an issue anyways. Thanks for clearing it up. We're really on the same side on the matter anyways. Tiamat isn't going to be beaten by low-epic characters if played properly.
Kihon 03-12-08, 11:04 PM	I will be using the Draconomicon to change up her feats and beef her up a bit. As a deity she is intelligent enough to have a better spell selection -so that will also change. One thing I don't think they will account for is her dragon horde - which means I can basically give her any magic item in the game up to artifact level - and who knows -perhaps even one of those. She would certainly be intelligent enough to use her items to her best advantage. As far as getting her out of her Divine Realm - which she can change at will - well that still is a bit tough. I don't think that the Plat. Dragon is going to agree to being summoned to Hell, so that's out. Stealing her eggs or treasure - hmmm - maybe, but I'm guessing that's going to get the thief killed. I don't see the "port in/ port out" working - she'd have to have her stuff dimensionally anchored. So still working on ideas there. Third - she obviously will have made alliances with other beings of near equal power. Yes the Ancient Advanced dragons of Each Evil type - and a Hellfire Wyrm or Two. But I'm thinking of a few Pit Fiends, and many other lesser devils being around also. Since they are in Hell - they will start summoning and very quickly the battle is going to be filled with lots of others. Plus if a group of 50th characters does get close to her I can see the big guns coming out (so to speak) and a Duke or Two of Hell showing up to her calls.
Kain_Darkwind 03-13-08, 02:41 AM	I don't think that the Plat. Dragon is going to agree to being summoned to Hell, so that's out. Which is why I suggested summoning an aspect of him. Not the real deal. The spell I believe is in the Draconomicon, Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon...I'm not sure which. The aspect's only purpose would be to taunt her into leaving the realm...it can't possibly stand against her in any form of combat. And really, you'll have to meet your players half way. If you just refuse to allow anything to draw the Chromatic Dragon out of her lair, in the lair she'll stay. If you ensure the eggs/treasure cannot be removed from her, it can't be. I agree that the forces of Hell would soon turn the place into a true war zone. In addition to what you've mentioned, Spawn of Tiamat (MM4) with class levels could be encounters as well. Or half-fiendish spawn. However far you advance dragons, you should have one of each color advanced to that point for her five cohorts. Using the half fiend, fiendish and such templates could also make other dragons possible encounters. Make use of the paragon template at least once....a paragon great red wyrm is only CR 41, so don't feel too bad about tossing one at your players.
zacnn 03-13-08, 03:53 PM	Use the greater dragonlances from Dragonlance, like Huma.
Bloodsoul 03-14-08, 08:41 AM	Divine Dodge might be a particulary nasty ability to give her; a 60% miss chance against her on practically anything, right? Buffing her up with spells pre-fight should help, too.
Kain_Darkwind 03-14-08, 11:25 AM	Divine Dodge might be a particulary nasty ability to give her; a 60% miss chance against her on practically anything, right? Buffing her up with spells pre-fight should help, too. Tiamat has 10 Dex, Divine Dodge requires 29 Dex. She doesn't qualify. Not to mention that fighting something with an absolute 60% miss chance isn't exactly the most fun combat in the world. It is more of those things you would give to a god that you didn't want your players to fight.
Bloodsoul 03-14-08, 01:40 PM	Well.. that's.. that's true, too. *curses not having his books for missing that oversight*
Kihon 03-14-08, 01:48 PM	I will probably 'throw them a bone' so to speak, and allow them to come up with a way to lure her out of massive cave/ divine realm. They are a good group, and have been together for several years. I don't think I even need to come up with an idea, they will - it's just as a DM how much 'wriggle room' do I allow them. Ok I'll let them get her out onto the first layer of hell - some massive plane - with open skies of course. Can't fight Tiamat in a 2 dimensional fight - ha,ha,ha. I'm thinking Dispel from a ways up in the air will be her friend. I'm thinking that she would have a few 'contingencies' up and in place - one would be a massive summoning sequence - basically calling all her dragon guards, devil allies, etc... So the air space is going to get full fast. A few other questions... How long does the fight have to go before the Lords of the Nine know about it? Will it be days afterwards? Will the devils that are summoned use their innate telepathic powers to pass the word? How long before word reaches Asmodeus that a 'God' on his plane is in a fight for her very existence? And most importantly - if the Lords of the nine find out in time (like rounds after it begins) - do they do anything to help? Which side & why? thoughts...
Kain_Darkwind 03-14-08, 06:09 PM	I will probably 'throw them a bone' so to speak, and allow them to come up with a way to lure her out of massive cave/ divine realm. They are a good group, and have been together for several years. I don't think I even need to come up with an idea, they will - it's just as a DM how much 'wriggle room' do I allow them. Ok I'll let them get her out onto the first layer of hell - some massive plane - with open skies of course. Can't fight Tiamat in a 2 dimensional fight - ha,ha,ha. I'm thinking Dispel from a ways up in the air will be her friend. Dispel is useless at 50th level. 1d20 + 20 = max DC 40. The DC to dispel a spell is 11 + caster level. Thus, the best caster level greater dispel magic can dispel is caster level 29th. A few other questions... How long does the fight have to go before the Lords of the Nine know about it? Will it be days afterwards? Depends on how you view them. I personally (and probably Shemeska with me) would think that the Lord of the First would be instantly aware of such a conflict. Within rounds, not days. The Lord of the Ninth only slightly afterwards as his spy network immediately reports back to him. In Elminster in Hell, Asmodeus reacted to the invasion of Mystra immediately by sending waves of massive pit fiends, the Archdevil Geryon and more against her. He was also aware when the Simbul said his name out loud. However, I think the maximum you can expect them to be in the dark about this is a few, maybe 10 minutes. Will the devils that are summoned use their innate telepathic powers to pass the word? How long before word reaches Asmodeus that a 'God' on his plane is in a fight for her very existence? And most importantly - if the Lords of the nine find out in time (like rounds after it begins) - do they do anything to help? Which side & why? thoughts... Do the Lords help out is a good question. Some may want to see her fall. Some may want to see her live. I would say these cancel each other out, with the exception of devilish encounters you want to occur. If you want to keep them out of it, assume that Hellish contracts drawn up between Tiamat and the devils forbid their interference in her affairs. If you want the PCs to be drawn into it, assume that those same Hellish contracts demand that the devils defend her.
Thor_Axe 03-14-08, 09:38 PM	Sorry if I havent read any of this thread except the original post, but I dont really care. I know, Im a d-bag. First of all if your 50th lvl, you can just make up spells at that point, many of which you could make specifically for this. If not, then use Vengeful Wrath Gaze of a God: 200d6 to the user, and 400d6 to the single target, with enough range to account for the curvature of the earth. Besides this, if the party is smart they can just go to Bahamut who at the very least will send some of his avatars with them. However, Bahamut will probably directly intervene on this battle, either saving PCs that have no chance or entering the battle himself if there is even a chance that Tiamat will fall. If Bahamut enters this battle, then Heironeous will almost certainly come with. You might even be able to convince St. Cuthbert or Pelor to join. Although if you enlisted the help of all of these deities, you would probably attract the attention of more than just Tiamat. However, many evil deities would not like to work together, but this may bring them all together. Who knows, this does seem like a much bigger encounter than you or I or anyone ever predicted.
Kain_Darkwind 03-14-08, 09:52 PM	First of all if your 50th lvl, you can just make up spells at that point, many of which you could make specifically for this. If not, then use Vengeful Wrath Gaze of a God: 200d6 to the user, and 400d6 to the single target, with enough range to account for the curvature of the earth. Unfortunately, backlash damage is limited to 2 x the caster level of the creature casting it. This spell is invalid for a 50th level caster, even assuming they could manage the DC 305 spellcraft check to cast it. Not to mention, 12,000 feet is roughly 2 miles, not really 'enough range to account for the curvature of the earth'. Nor does the spell deal 400d6 damage, it deals 305d6 damage. Finally, the spell is based on the disintegrate spell, which deities are immune to. I'm confused now...did you even read the epic rules/spells before you suggested this advice? I'm not sure how you could get so much wrong about the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/vengefulGazeOfGod.htm) otherwise. Besides this, if the party is smart they can just go to Bahamut who at the very least will send some of his avatars with them. However, Bahamut will probably directly intervene on this battle, either saving PCs that have no chance or entering the battle himself if there is even a chance that Tiamat will fall. If Bahamut enters this battle, then Heironeous will almost certainly come with. You might even be able to convince St. Cuthbert or Pelor to join. Although if you enlisted the help of all of these deities, you would probably attract the attention of more than just Tiamat. However, many evil deities would not like to work together, but this may bring them all together. Who knows, this does seem like a much bigger encounter than you or I or anyone ever predicted. I don't think Bahamut would come into Hell to kill Tiamat, nor would he send an avatar to help the party. Gods typically don't launch full out attacks against their foes. Which means Heironeous, Pelor and Cuthbert won't likely be helping out either.
Thor_Axe 03-14-08, 10:22 PM	Ok, so I will admit I dont know what I was talking about, obviously. Sorry if I offended, I was talking to my friend and it was a vague idea. I don't think Bahamut would come into Hell to kill Tiamat, nor would he send an avatar to help the party. Gods typically don't launch full out attacks against their foes. Which means Heironeous, Pelor and Cuthbert won't likely be helping out either. You make a point, but I believe some sort of quote goes, "... Bahamut has not been known to send Aspects to intervene in mortal affairs unless Bahamut or here Aspects are directly involved." -paraphrasing from Dragon Magic And besides, 50th lvl characters do not fit into anything any book sets forth for them. They just dont work in the universe. They could easily becomes deities themselves if they tried. Bahamut hates Tiamat. Period. If the PCs will do subsequent damage to her, Bahamut will help finish the job. I say the other deities will join because they believe that if they destroy her, this will cause the balance of the universe towards the powers of good. This is a good thing in their eyes. Any slaying of a evil deity is great. Straight up.
Kain_Darkwind 03-15-08, 01:15 PM	You make a point, but I believe some sort of quote goes, "... Bahamut has not been known to send Aspects to intervene in mortal affairs unless Bahamut or here Aspects are directly involved." -paraphrasing from Dragon Magic And besides, 50th lvl characters do not fit into anything any book sets forth for them. They just dont work in the universe. They could easily becomes deities themselves if they tried. Bahamut hates Tiamat. Period. If the PCs will do subsequent damage to her, Bahamut will help finish the job. I say the other deities will join because they believe that if they destroy her, this will cause the balance of the universe towards the powers of good. This is a good thing in their eyes. Any slaying of a evil deity is great. Straight up. Well, if any attack on a god leads to God War III in your campaign that's fine. I'm quite certain that isn't how it is suggested to run in the default setting and more importantly, in Kihon's setting. When I design adventures, I expect my PCs to be at the center of the story. Not watching the gods fight. If Tiamat attacked the mortal coil, sure Bahamut would step in. But minding her own business within her lair in Hell? I don't think it is a stretch to say that Bahamut would offer support but not go in person. And none of the other gods have a good reason to step in. To kill an evil god? So Heironious steps in and Hextor the Herald of Hell comes to keep him out of it. St. Cuthbert goes to Hell and Vecna or Iuz either counter him or launch plans against his mortal churches to keep him occupied. Pelor is already aligned with Hell, so the PCs will get no help from him anyways. Kurtlemak, Sekolah and Set all make their home in Hell. And plenty of other LE gods live on God Street. To say nothing of the Lords of the Nine, who may well be more powerful than gods themselves. The good gods would be fools to set foot on Hell without a better reason than to kill Tiamat. Serving the balance of good doesn't mean much when you are locked in a cell underneath Malbolge for attempted murder.
Kihon 03-18-08, 04:18 PM	First I would like to say thank you to everyone that has posted. Your comments and suggestions have been helpful. I have decided to run the encounter as a final fight for the group. I am going to make them go to the Seven Heavens and out to the floating castle of the Plat Dragon to ask for help. If they survive, since it is the last fight of the campaign, and since they are 50th level - I think they will become quasi-deities at least. Anyway - back to the fight. I will let them come up with a way to get Tiamat out onto the Plane of the first layer of Hell - outside her Massive Cave Diety Realm. This will help 'even' things a bit. I am going to use the Dieties & Demigods book, but beefed up a touch. I am going have a massive 3D in the sky, on the ground, combat going on (Yikes - for me as a DM to run, it seems a little overwhelming). The Plat dragon may give them something that gives them partial protection from Tiamat's Divine powers (not sure on a game mechanic yet, but something along those lines) - and that's about as far as he's going to get involved (at least at the start, and hopefully for the whole battle). I hope not to have a massive "god war III" - but I do plan on having lots of devils showing up, a duke or two, and maybe even 1 of the Lords of the Nine (using Dicefreaks stats probably) - not sure on which ones though. They are 50th level, highly skilled, maxed out, players that have been together for a long time. They will likely use everything I could think of more to win the fight, so my "ace in the whole" will be Tiamat's 'time stop' spell - where she calls for more help (if, and only if, she really needs it) - as I'd rather not have the fight over in 2 rounds. Thanks again.