Tiamat - Why is she lawfull evil? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tiamat - Why is she lawfull evil? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ChaosVirus
06-21-07, 11:12 AM I have wondered about this for a while. Why is she lawfull, when it would make more sense if she was chaotic evil, and served as a greater parrarel to her brother? Also since there father was true neutral.

Also with her many heads, she seems chaotic in apperance.

It may seem like a stupid question, but it is somthing which I am curious about.
Kihon
06-21-07, 11:25 AM I wonder about her "father." I have never heard her story. So if anyone has it handy - could you post it. Thanks.
XHereticX
06-21-07, 11:37 AM I find it strange as well, especially since the Real-World Sumarian Tiamat from which our deity was inspired from was the living embodiment of chaos.
Light_Colonel
06-21-07, 11:55 AM Equally adding to the conundrum is that Takhisis, by all measure the Dragonlance version of Tiamat was Chaotic Evil.

It would actually make almost more sense for her to be Neutral Evil rather than Lawful Evil and CE makes more sense yet.
Anubis.c.k
06-21-07, 12:25 PM i also agree ive just checked the alingments of all 5 dragons and 3 or the 5 are chaotic so over 50%
Snarkbone
06-21-07, 12:45 PM aren't all dragons LE or LG (even says "always" for every one of their entries I see), so what kind of a dragon deity would she be if she wasn't one of those when all her subjects are.
DreadArchon
06-21-07, 01:04 PM aren't all dragons LE or LG (even says "always" for every one of their entries I see), so what kind of a dragon deity would she be if she wasn't one of those when all her subjects are.
No, Red, White, and Black--three of her five heads--are Always Chaotic (Evil).

Yeah, it's weird.
Rerecros
06-21-07, 01:09 PM The official WotC directive for consistency within their own alignment system;
"**** it."
Niek
06-21-07, 01:13 PM Right, Ive seen Garl Glittergold listed as both Lawful Good and Neutral Good

@ Kihon: Her father, as well as the father of Bahamut, was Io, the ninefold dragon. Described in Races of Dragon
XHereticX
06-21-07, 01:19 PM aren't all dragons LE or LG (even says "always" for every one of their entries I see), so what kind of a dragon deity would she be if she wasn't one of those when all her subjects are.

Hmm, as I remember only Blue and Green are LE, Gold and Bronze are LG.
Doom_Linnorm
06-21-07, 01:47 PM Even in her creed and Dogma there are reasons to suspect she's more Chaotic then Lawfull. (Which is why in my setting she is Chaotic, but she's CN in mine, and my version of Bahamut is NG.)
(That ofcourse wasn't good for the Tiamat/Baatezu relationship, but hey.)
runestar
06-21-07, 01:55 PM but she's CN in mine, and my version of Bahamut is NG
Will be interesting to see what their offspring will be like, if that quote about races of dragon can be trusted...:)
_Nova_
06-21-07, 02:20 PM I also think its strange that Tiamat is lawful, imo should be neutral or even chaotic

and I also been wondering how its possible for the realm of million eyes (lawful evil realm of the Beholders) to be in the Abyss. I was about to start a topic to ask
Shemeska the Marauder
06-21-07, 02:21 PM Equally adding to the conundrum is that Takhisis, by all measure the Dragonlance version of Tiamat was Chaotic Evil.

Takhisis was LE, to the point that her divine domain was in Baator as well.
Rerecros
06-21-07, 02:26 PM I know, they tend to associate tentacled evil with CE.
And how Grumush (CE) is in Archeron.
Shemeska the Marauder
06-21-07, 02:27 PM and I also been wondering how its possible for the realm of million eyes (lawful evil realm of the Beholders) to be in the Abyss. I was about to start a topic to ask

Beholders are LE yes, but they were the creations of the Great Mother, who herself is actually CE.

That said, deities may tend to associate with planes that mirror their own alignment, but they aren't obligated to do so. It's just more comfortable for them if the plane and its native race or races aren't opposed or openly hostile to them based on alignment. Some gods will opt for less than wholly ideal matches in order to share the same plane with other deities from their pantheons.

As well, gods who replace earlier holders or a portfolio within a pantheon may retain the location of their predecessors domain regardless of alignment (see Kelemvor who while LN, maintains a deific domain in the NE Gray Waste, as he took over as the Faerunian god of the Dead from Cyric, who in turn took over from Myrkul who was NE)
Shemeska the Marauder
06-21-07, 02:29 PM And how Grumush (CE) is in Archeron.

Gruumsch is in Acheron because prior to 3e he was LE and so were orcs. For some unknown reason, they changed orcs to CE in the current edition, but there's too much history of him in Acheron (and a rather iconic conflict between his petitioners and those of Meglubiyet the godlin deity) to ignore in order to change him to reside on another plane.
The Serge7
06-21-07, 02:41 PM Hmm, as I remember only Blue and Green are LE, Gold and Bronze are LG.

Silver are LG as well.
Kain Darkwind
06-21-07, 02:49 PM Takhisis was LE, to the point that her divine domain was in Baator as well.

Truly? Because in Knight of the Black Rose, Soth goes there (The Abyss) and describes mariliths and other demons present.

I'm not questioning her alignment, she is obviously an aspect of Tiamat if not the real deal herself. No amount of retconning will make me believe otherwise. I'm simply questioning the Baator thing. There were demons there.
Rickiel
06-21-07, 03:19 PM If I can recall correctly, in Dragonlance all of the Lower Planes as viewed by Krynn's denizens was called the Abyss.
XHereticX
06-21-07, 03:38 PM If I can recall correctly, in Dragonlance all of the Lower Planes as viewed by Krynn's denizens was called the Abyss.

yep, that was bascically how planars viewed people from Krynn, as clueless as clueless can get.

DL now has its own cosmology and finate universe now too, just like FR. The DL cosmology consists of the general inner planes, transitive planes, plus a lot of demiplanes. There are 3 outer planes, The Dome of Creation for good, The Hidden Vale for Neutrality, and The Abyss for evil. Plus there is this mysterious plane called the Gray that Khellendros was in while he searched for Kitiara.
Shemeska the Marauder
06-21-07, 04:24 PM Truly? Because in Knight of the Black Rose, Soth goes there (The Abyss) and describes mariliths and other demons present.

I'm simply questioning the Baator thing. There were demons there.

The author of KotBR presumably took the Krynnish notion of describing any lower plane as "The Abyss" and ran with it at face value, never looking into if Takhisis was actually there in the Abyss proper or not. She wasn't, either when she was considered an aspect of Tiamat in some sources, or a distinct deity of her own sharing the same plane and similar motif.

I'm going from the details on Takhsis and her domain in 'On Hallowed Ground', where she's listed as a LE greater power of Baator in both her actual entry and in the appendix listing of gods in the back.
Kesuk2k5
06-21-07, 04:42 PM I'd like to think Tiamat was pegged as lawful evil because of the "refined" nature of lawful evil and how her image and name inspires the fear of a five-headed dragon that acts with careful deliberation rather than being driven by whims. While three of her heads might be that of chaotic evil dragons, being lawful evil as a whole makes her all that more terrifying, since (generally speaking) lawful evil is more frequently successful. But besides, being lawful doesn't mean she follows "rules", she follows her own internal, consistent code of ethic. It only makes her more interesting, if you ask me. And as for the others mentioned, beholders could've very well shown up and remolded that layer to be more fitting to their alignment. The Abyss is chaotic, yes, but it'd probably be more than willing to let a lawful layer exist just for the sake of more demons showing up to fight with the beholders there. A controlled, inner schism if you will. It's arguable that at the very extreme stretched ends of either lawful or chaotic alignment, the behavior starts to inverse and become its opposite.
Kain Darkwind
06-21-07, 05:49 PM The author of KotBR presumably took the Krynnish notion of describing any lower plane as "The Abyss" and ran with it at face value, never looking into if Takhisis was actually there in the Abyss proper or not. She wasn't, either when she was considered an aspect of Tiamat in some sources, or a distinct deity of her own sharing the same plane and similar motif.

I'm going from the details on Takhsis and her domain in 'On Hallowed Ground', where she's listed as a LE greater power of Baator in both her actual entry and in the appendix listing of gods in the back.

Ah. Just authors not checking their source material. Who would have ever thought that possible?
setekh
06-21-07, 08:27 PM On beholders;
Other than the great mother being C/E (As has been mentioned) There is also a L/G plane that the Abyss hasn't thrown a hissy about so I dunno why you're that bothered.
Sure, the Demons have thrown a hissy (Including an obyrith) -Presumably towards both realms based upon a line in FC1 - but that doesn't mean the Abyss itself -a place of Infinite possibility would want to see them gone.
Thegans
06-21-07, 11:33 PM I wonder about her "father." I have never heard her story. So if anyone has it handy - could you post it. Thanks.

Its mentioned in Races of Dragon but long story short Io the creator god of dragons wanted a perfect dragon. Bahamut and Tiamat were suppouse to be the daddy and mommy of his perfect dragon but something flushed his plan down the drain.

As for Tiamat being lawful it makes sene if you compare her to Demogorgan. Demogorgan has two heads and minds that fight against each other while Tiamat has five heads that have one mind and don't fight against each other.
TurnCloak_Kobold
06-22-07, 02:44 AM i always figuered that tiamat was lawfull because she is Queen of all evil dragons. now that isent the main reason, for example like it was jst said, she has five heads, but only one mind, also, think of how organized the armies of tiamat can be, if she was chaotic she would be slightly less in the way of caring for how her minions acted.

thanks to her being lawfull she has a keen sense on how to construct an effective force that fights well together instead of an army that fights when it pleases.

your deity help you if a great dragon war begins, the armies of tiamat and bahamut would clash and there would be little to stop them.
sciborg2
06-22-07, 02:53 AM Ah. Just authors not checking their source material. Who would have ever thought that possible?

Actually I found the Baator connection to be a lack of looking at the source. Not on the part of the OHG authors, but a generally mucking up by whoever was the DL team of authors.

Raistlin clearly goes to a layer of the Abyss, if not outright stated in the novels it was obviously implied by the place's limbo-esque trait of taking its form from the mind. There were also rutterkin like beings whose own claw strikes made them feel pain in Time of the Twins...that might have been b/c they struck an LG cleric but I have my doubts.

I thought Raistlin's name came up in the 2e Outer Planes MC that stated he traveled through the Abyss? :confused:
XHereticX
06-22-07, 09:15 AM I'm not sure, but as I recall, Takhisis's divine realm in the Nine Hells was called Takhisis's abyss.

That dosen't really matter anymore though as DL is no longer in the wheel.
Doom_Linnorm
06-22-07, 10:07 AM i always figuered that tiamat was lawfull because she is Queen of all evil dragons. now that isent the main reason, for example like it was jst said, she has five heads, but only one mind, also, think of how organized the armies of tiamat can be, if she was chaotic she would be slightly less in the way of caring for how her minions acted.

thanks to her being lawfull she has a keen sense on how to construct an effective force that fights well together instead of an army that fights when it pleases.

Don't confuse Alignment with Int score please.
sciborg2
06-22-07, 12:12 PM i love how chaos can't be organized but law can be creative, innovative, etc. :confused:
setekh
06-22-07, 05:47 PM Thats what I dislike about people playing C/E (And to an extent L/G) -It's all KILL MAIM BURN! With them, apparently the line about following your own code of ethics was missed :rolleyes:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ChaosVirus 06-21-07, 11:12 AM	I have wondered about this for a while. Why is she lawfull, when it would make more sense if she was chaotic evil, and served as a greater parrarel to her brother? Also since there father was true neutral. Also with her many heads, she seems chaotic in apperance. It may seem like a stupid question, but it is somthing which I am curious about.
Kihon 06-21-07, 11:25 AM	I wonder about her "father." I have never heard her story. So if anyone has it handy - could you post it. Thanks.
XHereticX 06-21-07, 11:37 AM	I find it strange as well, especially since the Real-World Sumarian Tiamat from which our deity was inspired from was the living embodiment of chaos.
Light_Colonel 06-21-07, 11:55 AM	Equally adding to the conundrum is that Takhisis, by all measure the Dragonlance version of Tiamat was Chaotic Evil. It would actually make almost more sense for her to be Neutral Evil rather than Lawful Evil and CE makes more sense yet.
Anubis.c.k 06-21-07, 12:25 PM	i also agree ive just checked the alingments of all 5 dragons and 3 or the 5 are chaotic so over 50%
Snarkbone 06-21-07, 12:45 PM	aren't all dragons LE or LG (even says "always" for every one of their entries I see), so what kind of a dragon deity would she be if she wasn't one of those when all her subjects are.
DreadArchon 06-21-07, 01:04 PM	aren't all dragons LE or LG (even says "always" for every one of their entries I see), so what kind of a dragon deity would she be if she wasn't one of those when all her subjects are. No, Red, White, and Black--three of her five heads--are Always Chaotic (Evil). Yeah, it's weird.
Rerecros 06-21-07, 01:09 PM	The official WotC directive for consistency within their own alignment system; "**** it."
Niek 06-21-07, 01:13 PM	Right, Ive seen Garl Glittergold listed as both Lawful Good and Neutral Good @ Kihon: Her father, as well as the father of Bahamut, was Io, the ninefold dragon. Described in Races of Dragon
XHereticX 06-21-07, 01:19 PM	aren't all dragons LE or LG (even says "always" for every one of their entries I see), so what kind of a dragon deity would she be if she wasn't one of those when all her subjects are. Hmm, as I remember only Blue and Green are LE, Gold and Bronze are LG.
Doom_Linnorm 06-21-07, 01:47 PM	Even in her creed and Dogma there are reasons to suspect she's more Chaotic then Lawfull. (Which is why in my setting she is Chaotic, but she's CN in mine, and my version of Bahamut is NG.) (That ofcourse wasn't good for the Tiamat/Baatezu relationship, but hey.)
runestar 06-21-07, 01:55 PM	but she's CN in mine, and my version of Bahamut is NG Will be interesting to see what their offspring will be like, if that quote about races of dragon can be trusted...:)
_Nova_ 06-21-07, 02:20 PM	I also think its strange that Tiamat is lawful, imo should be neutral or even chaotic and I also been wondering how its possible for the realm of million eyes (lawful evil realm of the Beholders) to be in the Abyss. I was about to start a topic to ask
Shemeska the Marauder 06-21-07, 02:21 PM	Equally adding to the conundrum is that Takhisis, by all measure the Dragonlance version of Tiamat was Chaotic Evil. Takhisis was LE, to the point that her divine domain was in Baator as well.
Rerecros 06-21-07, 02:26 PM	I know, they tend to associate tentacled evil with CE. And how Grumush (CE) is in Archeron.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-21-07, 02:27 PM	and I also been wondering how its possible for the realm of million eyes (lawful evil realm of the Beholders) to be in the Abyss. I was about to start a topic to ask Beholders are LE yes, but they were the creations of the Great Mother, who herself is actually CE. That said, deities may tend to associate with planes that mirror their own alignment, but they aren't obligated to do so. It's just more comfortable for them if the plane and its native race or races aren't opposed or openly hostile to them based on alignment. Some gods will opt for less than wholly ideal matches in order to share the same plane with other deities from their pantheons. As well, gods who replace earlier holders or a portfolio within a pantheon may retain the location of their predecessors domain regardless of alignment (see Kelemvor who while LN, maintains a deific domain in the NE Gray Waste, as he took over as the Faerunian god of the Dead from Cyric, who in turn took over from Myrkul who was NE)
Shemeska the Marauder 06-21-07, 02:29 PM	And how Grumush (CE) is in Archeron. Gruumsch is in Acheron because prior to 3e he was LE and so were orcs. For some unknown reason, they changed orcs to CE in the current edition, but there's too much history of him in Acheron (and a rather iconic conflict between his petitioners and those of Meglubiyet the godlin deity) to ignore in order to change him to reside on another plane.
The Serge7 06-21-07, 02:41 PM	Hmm, as I remember only Blue and Green are LE, Gold and Bronze are LG. Silver are LG as well.
Kain Darkwind 06-21-07, 02:49 PM	Takhisis was LE, to the point that her divine domain was in Baator as well. Truly? Because in Knight of the Black Rose, Soth goes there (The Abyss) and describes mariliths and other demons present. I'm not questioning her alignment, she is obviously an aspect of Tiamat if not the real deal herself. No amount of retconning will make me believe otherwise. I'm simply questioning the Baator thing. There were demons there.
Rickiel 06-21-07, 03:19 PM	If I can recall correctly, in Dragonlance all of the Lower Planes as viewed by Krynn's denizens was called the Abyss.
XHereticX 06-21-07, 03:38 PM	If I can recall correctly, in Dragonlance all of the Lower Planes as viewed by Krynn's denizens was called the Abyss. yep, that was bascically how planars viewed people from Krynn, as clueless as clueless can get. DL now has its own cosmology and finate universe now too, just like FR. The DL cosmology consists of the general inner planes, transitive planes, plus a lot of demiplanes. There are 3 outer planes, The Dome of Creation for good, The Hidden Vale for Neutrality, and The Abyss for evil. Plus there is this mysterious plane called the Gray that Khellendros was in while he searched for Kitiara.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-21-07, 04:24 PM	Truly? Because in Knight of the Black Rose, Soth goes there (The Abyss) and describes mariliths and other demons present. I'm simply questioning the Baator thing. There were demons there. The author of KotBR presumably took the Krynnish notion of describing any lower plane as "The Abyss" and ran with it at face value, never looking into if Takhisis was actually there in the Abyss proper or not. She wasn't, either when she was considered an aspect of Tiamat in some sources, or a distinct deity of her own sharing the same plane and similar motif. I'm going from the details on Takhsis and her domain in 'On Hallowed Ground', where she's listed as a LE greater power of Baator in both her actual entry and in the appendix listing of gods in the back.
Kesuk2k5 06-21-07, 04:42 PM	I'd like to think Tiamat was pegged as lawful evil because of the "refined" nature of lawful evil and how her image and name inspires the fear of a five-headed dragon that acts with careful deliberation rather than being driven by whims. While three of her heads might be that of chaotic evil dragons, being lawful evil as a whole makes her all that more terrifying, since (generally speaking) lawful evil is more frequently successful. But besides, being lawful doesn't mean she follows "rules", she follows her own internal, consistent code of ethic. It only makes her more interesting, if you ask me. And as for the others mentioned, beholders could've very well shown up and remolded that layer to be more fitting to their alignment. The Abyss is chaotic, yes, but it'd probably be more than willing to let a lawful layer exist just for the sake of more demons showing up to fight with the beholders there. A controlled, inner schism if you will. It's arguable that at the very extreme stretched ends of either lawful or chaotic alignment, the behavior starts to inverse and become its opposite.
Kain Darkwind 06-21-07, 05:49 PM	The author of KotBR presumably took the Krynnish notion of describing any lower plane as "The Abyss" and ran with it at face value, never looking into if Takhisis was actually there in the Abyss proper or not. She wasn't, either when she was considered an aspect of Tiamat in some sources, or a distinct deity of her own sharing the same plane and similar motif. I'm going from the details on Takhsis and her domain in 'On Hallowed Ground', where she's listed as a LE greater power of Baator in both her actual entry and in the appendix listing of gods in the back. Ah. Just authors not checking their source material. Who would have ever thought that possible?
setekh 06-21-07, 08:27 PM	On beholders; Other than the great mother being C/E (As has been mentioned) There is also a L/G plane that the Abyss hasn't thrown a hissy about so I dunno why you're that bothered. Sure, the Demons have thrown a hissy (Including an obyrith) -Presumably towards both realms based upon a line in FC1 - but that doesn't mean the Abyss itself -a place of Infinite possibility would want to see them gone.
Thegans 06-21-07, 11:33 PM	I wonder about her "father." I have never heard her story. So if anyone has it handy - could you post it. Thanks. Its mentioned in Races of Dragon but long story short Io the creator god of dragons wanted a perfect dragon. Bahamut and Tiamat were suppouse to be the daddy and mommy of his perfect dragon but something flushed his plan down the drain. As for Tiamat being lawful it makes sene if you compare her to Demogorgan. Demogorgan has two heads and minds that fight against each other while Tiamat has five heads that have one mind and don't fight against each other.
TurnCloak_Kobold 06-22-07, 02:44 AM	i always figuered that tiamat was lawfull because she is Queen of all evil dragons. now that isent the main reason, for example like it was jst said, she has five heads, but only one mind, also, think of how organized the armies of tiamat can be, if she was chaotic she would be slightly less in the way of caring for how her minions acted. thanks to her being lawfull she has a keen sense on how to construct an effective force that fights well together instead of an army that fights when it pleases. your deity help you if a great dragon war begins, the armies of tiamat and bahamut would clash and there would be little to stop them.
sciborg2 06-22-07, 02:53 AM	Ah. Just authors not checking their source material. Who would have ever thought that possible? Actually I found the Baator connection to be a lack of looking at the source. Not on the part of the OHG authors, but a generally mucking up by whoever was the DL team of authors. Raistlin clearly goes to a layer of the Abyss, if not outright stated in the novels it was obviously implied by the place's limbo-esque trait of taking its form from the mind. There were also rutterkin like beings whose own claw strikes made them feel pain in Time of the Twins...that might have been b/c they struck an LG cleric but I have my doubts. I thought Raistlin's name came up in the 2e Outer Planes MC that stated he traveled through the Abyss? :confused:
XHereticX 06-22-07, 09:15 AM	I'm not sure, but as I recall, Takhisis's divine realm in the Nine Hells was called Takhisis's abyss. That dosen't really matter anymore though as DL is no longer in the wheel.
Doom_Linnorm 06-22-07, 10:07 AM	i always figuered that tiamat was lawfull because she is Queen of all evil dragons. now that isent the main reason, for example like it was jst said, she has five heads, but only one mind, also, think of how organized the armies of tiamat can be, if she was chaotic she would be slightly less in the way of caring for how her minions acted. thanks to her being lawfull she has a keen sense on how to construct an effective force that fights well together instead of an army that fights when it pleases. Don't confuse Alignment with Int score please.
sciborg2 06-22-07, 12:12 PM	i love how chaos can't be organized but law can be creative, innovative, etc. :confused:
setekh 06-22-07, 05:47 PM	Thats what I dislike about people playing C/E (And to an extent L/G) -It's all KILL MAIM BURN! With them, apparently the line about following your own code of ethics was missed :rolleyes: