Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sciborg2 05-22-07, 12:23 AM	Any good ideas in using the Demiplane of Time, and Chronomancy, in some adventures?
Bob the Efreet 05-22-07, 03:50 PM	Any good ideas in using the Demiplane of Time, and Chronomancy, in some adventures? I'm playing in a campaign where we've gone back in time to prevent a terrible apocalypse. The cool part is, the game began before the end of the world, and then things got bad kind of inexplicably between game sessions, and we started exploring and figuring out what had happened... and now we're in the past trying to stop it.
Deacon Liadon 05-22-07, 06:05 PM	There's a module from Necromnacer Games called Chaos Rising that involves the players having to move back and forth in time, stave off attacks by a prime warlord and Orcus, and eventually slay an avatar of Jubilex in the past to prevent it from re-merging with him to allow Jubilex to take on a semblence of power.
jareddm 05-22-07, 06:08 PM	I ran a game in which the players actually had to go back in time to one of their previous adventures in order to be in two places at once to stop a major planer bleed. When they first ran through it, there was a bit of dice fudging to keep things moving along, but I think having their more experienced counterparts working in the shadow and unknowingly making things easier for them makes for an interesting explanation.
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-22-07, 08:37 PM	Though Chronomancy forbids you from having you be in the same time twice, I've never liked that rule. If you meet yourself, though, most people would go nuts and try to kill themself (themother?). Only chronomancers have the training and intellegence to recognize a temporally-different them. Of course, if you try and give your past self the winning lottery numbers or something like that, the timeline will correct itself. An idea I had is a twist on the classic bodyguard mission; while your past selves escort an important figure through an extremely dangerous area, the future selves must stop some of the overwhelming forces from reaching the past PCs (Kind of like Back to the Future II).
Thanael 05-23-07, 03:42 AM	There is of course Maldin's great campaign, where history-researching PCs timetravel back to the war between the Baklunish and Suel and while trying to avert the Invoked Devastation they actually inadvertedly cause it to happen. Here's a link: http://melkot.com/mysteries/cataclysms.html
Rerecros 05-23-07, 04:01 AM	I've always been a fan of consistant history mayself. (12 monkeys sorta thing) A PC can't prevent a murder, but they can go back in time and fake their deaths so they have a reason to go back in the first place.
Dunamin 05-23-07, 04:03 AM	Something related to the illithid time-loop creation myth from Lords of Madness?
Rerecros 05-23-07, 04:08 AM	Something related to the illithid time-loop creation myth from Lords of Madness? Don't have that. The ilithids were created by the Daelkyr anyways :D
ripvanwormer 05-23-07, 02:07 PM	I kind of like the 1st edition Manual of the Planes premise, that "time travel" is really travel between alternate worlds, identical except for the rate at which time flows. So there are, in theory, infinite Aebir-Torils: there is one where Netheril is still at its height, one in which the Sarrukh still reign, one just before the Time of Troubles, and one in the official "present day." Traveling between worlds may alter the history of those worlds, but won't alter the history of the "prime" Aebir-Toril from which you originally hailed.
Doom_Linnorm 05-23-07, 02:17 PM	I've had PCs go back in time to save a NPC they knew, they failed, but I never intended them to win. I explained it like this: Before they went back in time, the future them had already tried to save the NPC, basicly, because the NPC was dead, meant they didn't save her. They got good exp for the fight though and a load of story exp for figuring out why they couldn't change time, because it already happened. Anybody that has watched Disney's Gargoyles series will agree that handling time travel like that is more sensible and more fun because it contrasts with what people expect from time travel thanks to many popular novels/games/cartoons. OT: I myself didn't even know that Disney owned the Gargoyles series untill after I watched it.... its really good, I enjoyed watching it as a kid but I enjoyed it a lot more when I began watching it again 10 years later because now I understood what's happening. And another thing, David Xanotos is one of my favorite villains EVER.
sciborg2 05-23-07, 06:19 PM	Actually, to be honest, I found Gargoyle's explanations of time-travel infuriating because they simply left it up to infintiely recursive time loops: "I got this item from my future self in the past" There was no action that initiated the events, which essentially rules out free will because anything that could happen has already happened. :( But perhaps this means that things are "ever present". :D I'm trying to remember a really really good time travel show...maybe it was anime, that covered all their bases and left free will open...maybe Moorcock's novels.... I suspect that in many cases you CAN change the past, but the Guardians from the Demiplane of Time ensure that you do not and enjoy perpetuating the myth that such actions are futile because it eases their load. The 2e chronomancy book was one of the cooler ideas to come from TSR imo...
Shemeska the Marauder 05-23-07, 07:20 PM	I've used time travel before, and the demiplane of time itself, but they've usually been in the background, or alluded to rather than having PCs actually go hopping across time themselves. For instance in my current campaign I had the PCs approached by a priest of the temple of Hermes with a sealed letter that had been entrusted into their care roughly 1900 years previous, with instructions to deliver it to a group of people fitting their description at a specific place on a specific date at a specific hour of the day. The letter turned out to be written by former factol Tollysalmon of the Bleak Cabal, with the implication in the text that something bizarre was going on with regards to her and time. In its original conception I also placed Harishek ap Thulkesh and the Clockwork Gap as something akin to the deific domain within the Demiplane of Time (as opposed to a regular demiplane on its own). I had my PCs travel there, briefly being exposed to the demiplane around it, but I tried to avoid any chance of time travel involving the PCs if I could avoid it.
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-23-07, 09:03 PM	Actually, to be honest, I found Gargoyle's explanations of time-travel infuriating because they simply left it up to infintiely recursive time loops: "I got this item from my future self in the past" There was no action that initiated the events, which essentially rules out free will because anything that could happen has already happened. :( But perhaps this means that things are "ever present". :D I'm trying to remember a really really good time travel show...maybe it was anime, that covered all their bases and left free will open...maybe Moorcock's novels.... I suspect that in many cases you CAN change the past, but the Guardians from the Demiplane of Time ensure that you do not and enjoy perpetuating the myth that such actions are futile because it eases their load. The 2e chronomancy book was one of the cooler ideas to come from TSR imo... The idea has been around before. It's an ontological paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_paradox).
Rerecros 05-23-07, 11:01 PM	There was no action that initiated the events, which essentially rules out free will because anything that could happen has already happened. :( But perhaps this means that things are "ever present". :D I'm trying to remember a really really good time travel show...maybe it was anime, that covered all their bases and left free will open...maybe Moorcock's novels.... :rolleyes: Free will...what a quaint delusion:evillaugh
sciborg2 05-23-07, 11:04 PM	delusion it may be, but if everything is fated D&D loses any and all fun imo...
Rerecros 05-23-07, 11:11 PM	delusion it may be, but if everything is fated D&D loses any and all fun imo... how so?
Mazaron 05-23-07, 11:16 PM	Any good ideas in using the Demiplane of Time, and Chronomancy, in some adventures? My current campaign, one of them anyway, split into two campaigns. The PCs journyed a million years in the past of Toril to the continent of Lopango (south of Maztica, think South America) to find the cure to a world-destroying virus. It was designed by an ancient simian race, virtually extinct in modern Toril, used by a race interplanar invaders. For fun, I made a new campaign spilt off from that. The PCs died and are resurrected five hundred years after their present. The plague virtually destroyed all life on Toril. It is a blasted, desert wasteland largely ruled by undead with a new races and a very very small number of humans left in ruined cities. They discovered that they may have found the cure but were unable to get back to their present; the cure died with them a million years before the PC's present. Their government in the present researched a way to get back to the past to rescue them/get the cure but the plague overtook them and they died and 500 years have passed. They have to find this means of time travel, get it to the past selves, journey to their original present, stop the plague (the Blight is what I call it), and stop the post-apocalyptic future from ever occurring. I haven't decided yet what happens to the future versions of the PCs (and NPCs that aid them and who may journey back into the deep past with them) if they are successful. I have develped the post-apocalyptic world more and more and have grown quite fond of it, though the million years in the past setting is also quite developed too, very technological. Science fiction even, though the far future one is a horror meets Mad Max meets Dune setting.
sciborg2 05-23-07, 11:19 PM	how so? Well, to me D&D is about being a hero though not necesarrily on a grand scale. In fact, it may just be on a personal scale of gain or involve mere survival. Leveling up means gaining greater power which means greater influence. Perhaps responsibilities increase, but one takes them on for the greater good (or maybe the greater evil or greater neutral). But D&D is about acquiring personal power to affect greater change as a group and as individual PCs. If someone, somewhere already knows the outcome of your actions it makes it pointless to adventure, to take on quests, it all becomes deterministic. Now, a game where PCs fulfill a prophecy is fine so long as you fill that the final moment of acheivement is truly based on the PCs actions. When everything is written in stone, why even roll a die?
Rerecros 05-24-07, 03:42 AM	The Oracle: Do you see her die? Neo: No. The Oracle: You have the sight now, Neo. You are looking at the world without time. Neo: Then why can't I see what happens to her? The Oracle: We can never see past the choices we don't understand. Neo: Are you saying I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies? The Oracle: No, you've already made the choice. Now you have to understand it. Neo: No. I can't do that. I won't. The Oracle: Well, you have to. Neo: Why? The Oracle: Because you're the One. ...
sciborg2 05-25-07, 11:59 AM	i hated that scene to be honest, it didn't make any sense. at all.
Dunamin 05-25-07, 01:01 PM	i hated that scene to be honest, it didn't make any sense. at all. I didn't care much for it either, it seemed pretty unimaginative. Maddox puts it quite nicely: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/matrix_question_tot1.gif
Lina_Inverse 05-25-07, 01:17 PM	Any good ideas in using the Demiplane of Time, and Chronomancy, in some adventures? There are no good ideas involving time travel. The possibility of time travel creates too many problems for you as a DM to resolve.
elondir 05-25-07, 01:40 PM	I had an awesome time travel campaign back in the late 90's using the Chronomancer book. Today the job is easier. Materials: The "Teleport Through Time" spell from Perilous Gateways web feature on the WotC site, or, The "Chronomancer" book from 1996, updated so the Chronomancer is a PrC. This is better since it introduces the temporal energy plane at 3rd level instead of 17th. The Modern and Future SRDs The D20 Modern and D20 Future price guide third-party supplelemts. This changes wealth checks to dollar values, which are easier to convert to GP. A good source is the Dragonlance Legends sourcebook (Twins or something) Next comes the really hard part. I hope you're ready to do a lot of work as the DM. You need to prepare a timeline spanning a few thousand years at the least. Not just one. You need alternate timelines too, to chart the ripple effect of possible events. Make it a flowchart format. Be prepared to alter huge chunks of it as the players do the unexpected. In general, "historical momentum" will keep the butterfly in brazil effect down to a minimum. You are better off creating a few static eras rather than a continuous timestream. To double or not to double: the 1996 stance was "you can't be in two different places at the same time" so Back to the Future II wouldn't happen. A tornado sucks you into the temporal energy plane if you are on the material plane at any time that you have already been on it. You can leave notes and items for yourself. Be prepared to discuss philosophy as your characters get defeated or finish a crawl and then leave the treasure and notes for themselves such as "A gift for me from me. Duck right now. The scroll is on level 3 but it's not worth it. Don't forget the cage and watch out for the troll. And don't forget to go through the dungeon anyway so you can leave this stuff and the note for yourselves before you go in." The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has a lengthy discussion on grammer that is entertaining but ultimately useless for real usage. Read some good time travel books. Be prepared for a more sci-fi game than a fantasy one. My advice is introduce time travel slowly - maybe have them find a piece of futuristic equipment. Then a portal, then let them learn the chronomancy spells. Eventually they'll just zip from time period to time period, but once you're past the portals stage and into the spells stage, you want them to spend time on the temporal energy plane. They will be encountering temporal stalkers, temporal filchers, time drakes, chronovoids, temporal spiders, etc.. Most of all they will be introduced to the villain, who is usually one step ahead and messing with history big time. Maybe there are guardians of time, and maybe not. Suggested campaign arc: Early levels (1-3): items from other times are mysterious and out of place. Investigations introduce the party to time travel. Most of the adventures are in the present day (medieval times) Mid levels (4-7): they explore the various time periods, are introduced to the villain, and acquire more useful means of time travel. Adventures are typically in one time frame, but that time frame changes from adventure to adventure. The PCs learn about high technology. Their travel will be limited to about plus or minus 100 years. Higher levels (8-12): adventures span multiple time periods. The villain really starts messing with history big time. The guardians notice. The PCs probably have some decent high-tech items by now. Their travel will increase dramatically thanks to the Create Slipgate spell. Very high levels (13-20): adventures require lots of time travel. Dungeon puzzles require changing things in multiple time periods. The villain is getting close to godlike power and has probably succeeded in his plan at least once. PCs are more comparable to Star Wars characters than Tolkien characters. Eventually they will be casting Teleport Through Time to zip thousands of years in a flash, but it costs money. Epic levels: all heck breaks loose as the villain's plans near fruition. Maybe a few apocalypses happen in this stage. The PCs have to stop the villain before all of existence is unraveled. Maybe even worse. PCs encounter things like Phanes on the temporal energy plane as they are released from their prisons or the PCs have to go to the ends of time itself. Time travel is unlimited and instantaneous thanks to epic spellcasting. That's my take on it. Time travel is a lot of fun but it can be a real headache if your PCs think out-of-the-box and you're not ready to completely rewrite entire world histories (and sometimes maps) after every session.
Wyvern76 05-26-07, 10:42 PM	The PCs journyed a million years in the past of Toril to the continent of Lopango (south of Maztica, think South America) to find the cure to a world-destroying virus. It was designed by an ancient simian race,Would that be the Army of the Twelve Monkeys? :D The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has a lengthy discussion on grammer that is entertaining but ultimately useless for real usage. Here's my take on it: time travelers will use normal past tense when talking about events in their own past, regardless of when those events occurred relative to the present timeframe. They will use specific time indicators whenever possible. For example: Time Traveler 1: "I'm sorry, I don't believe we met." Time Traveler 2: "Well, I met you a year ago in Paris, in 1943." Time Traveler 1: "Oh, I haven't been to Paris yet. How old was I?" Time Traveler 2: "I think you were 35." Time Traveler 1: "Well, I'm only 33 now, so I suppose I'll meet you in two years." Wyvern
sciborg2 05-26-07, 10:52 PM	* Early levels (1-3): items from other times are mysterious and out of place. Investigations introduce the party to time travel. Most of the adventures are in the present day (medieval times) * Mid levels (4-7): they explore the various time periods, are introduced to the villain, and acquire more useful means of time travel. Adventures are typically in one time frame, but that time frame changes from adventure to adventure. The PCs learn about high technology. Their travel will be limited to about plus or minus 100 years. * Higher levels (8-12): adventures span multiple time periods. The villain really starts messing with history big time. The guardians notice. The PCs probably have some decent high-tech items by now. Their travel will increase dramatically thanks to the Create Slipgate spell. * Very high levels (13-20): adventures require lots of time travel. Dungeon puzzles require changing things in multiple time periods. The villain is getting close to godlike power and has probably succeeded in his plan at least once. PCs are more comparable to Star Wars characters than Tolkien characters. Eventually they will be casting Teleport Through Time to zip thousands of years in a flash, but it costs money. * Epic levels: all heck breaks loose as the villain's plans near fruition. Maybe a few apocalypses happen in this stage. The PCs have to stop the villain before all of existence is unraveled. Maybe even worse. PCs encounter things like Phanes on the temporal energy plane as they are released from their prisons or the PCs have to go to the ends of time itself. Time travel is unlimited and instantaneous thanks to epic spellcasting. I like very much!:D