To bind the planes themselves... [Archive] - Wizards Community

To bind the planes themselves... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Allthegoodnamesweretaken
05-28-07, 11:09 AM Wouldn't it make for an interesting epic style Vestige for the Binder class to be able to bind a plane? It would likely be epic because it's a step above and beyond simply binding a singular entity, plus the complications of the plane not being a vestige per-say. Or binding a powerful concept, like the Cadence. After all, who said the only thing you could bind *had* to be vestiges, you could apply the general principle of binding to a powerful enough concept, in my opinion.

And on a more general note, how do you think Binders (Base class from Tome of Magic, for reference) are viewed on the planes? I think they're probably not hunted down like the ones presented in Tome of Magic on the material plane, but can't think of anything else. They'd probably be treated like any other spellcaster.
sciborg2
05-28-07, 03:16 PM I think Binders are looked at with dismay and are pariahs. They connect to place that is almost the opposite of all other planes in terms of existing, and to me that makes the place of the vestiges more distant than the Far Realm. You can kill an illithid, or even a daelkyr if need be. How, though, can you kill a vestige.

I think Asmodeus collects binders and used them to see if Geryon, now beyond the Dark Lord's power, might bear a grudge from that all to distant other side of all the realities of the Multiverse.
Deacon Liadon
05-28-07, 03:43 PM I'd say the modrons would probably be commanded to hunt down and slay anyone who is know to bind Primus or Tenebrous.
Taeldrin Laesrash
05-28-07, 03:50 PM Wouldn't it make for an interesting epic style Vestige for the Binder class to be able to bind a plane? It would likely be epic because it's a step above and beyond simply binding a singular entity, plus the complications of the plane not being a vestige per-say. Or binding a powerful concept, like the Cadence. After all, who said the only thing you could bind *had* to be vestiges, you could apply the general principle of binding to a powerful enough concept, in my opinion.

It's a neat idea; however, I think that if you tried to bind to your soul the most unbridled representation of an alignment force (One of the planes), as such an unbalanced soul, you'd shed your mortality and become actual Good or Evil or whatever and become something intangible. Basically, instead of getting a cool vestige, you'd become the cool vestige.
Deathmond
05-28-07, 04:21 PM I remember reading somewhere about a sentient plane...this makes me want to take my current binder character on a massive quest to try and find and bind one :D
Allthegoodnamesweretaken
05-28-07, 07:34 PM It's a neat idea; however, I think that if you tried to bind to your soul the most unbridled representation of an alignment force (One of the planes), as such an unbalanced soul, you'd shed your mortality and become actual Good or Evil or whatever and become something intangible. Basically, instead of getting a cool vestige, you'd become the cool vestige.

What if you counterbalanced it by binding a plane with an alignment directly opposite that of the plane you're binding? Mind you, this could very well simply result in a massive explosion (like when positive and negative meet), but it'd be a net trick if it worked without going kaboom from conflicting forces.
ArcTan
05-28-07, 10:37 PM Wouldn't it make for an interesting epic style Vestige for the Binder class to be able to bind a plane? It would likely be epic because it's a step above and beyond simply binding a singular entity, plus the complications of the plane not being a vestige per-say. Or binding a powerful concept, like the Cadence. After all, who said the only thing you could bind *had* to be vestiges, you could apply the general principle of binding to a powerful enough concept, in my opinion.

And on a more general note, how do you think Binders (Base class from Tome of Magic, for reference) are viewed on the planes? I think they're probably not hunted down like the ones presented in Tome of Magic on the material plane, but can't think of anything else. They'd probably be treated like any other spellcaster.

The reason you can only bind vestiges is because vestiges don't really exist. I.e. they're not distinct, conscious entities with any real power of their own -- binding a vestige is taking a general *idea* that has no particular place to live and giving it one (i.e. a floating Platonic essence without form).

Planes are the opposite of vestiges. Not only does a plane exist as a particular place, it is *everything* that exists within one whole concept of place.

As for whether people hate Binders on the Outer Planes, I don't know. You can flavor it one way or the other, but I don't see why planars would be any less likely to hate the Binders than primes. The reasoning is exactly the same -- the whole concept of vestiges continuing to exist and being sources of power is a threat to the assumptions that underlie the way the Powers work, so the Powers and their servants would be deeply hostile to them. The Outer Planes are where the hatred and enmity of the Powers and their servants matters *more*, not less. Orcus fears and hates the vestige of Tenebrous, and this hatred would matter *more* in a place with more direct access to his layer of the Abyss than on the Prime. Heironeous and Hextor fear the vestige of their servant who became the vestige Savnok, and this matters more on planes with access to their domains. Etc.

Also, the Seropaeneans might not exist in their listed form outside the Prime (and, indeed, outside the world of Oerth), they're stated to have been a creation of the Regulators, an Epic-level planeswide conspiracy from the ELH, whose tendrils would certainly also extend to the Outer Planes and Sigil.
Allthegoodnamesweretaken
05-28-07, 10:43 PM The Athar are liable to like binders at any rate. (Edit:I'd imagine the Athar would sympathize with a person who is hated by the powers)

And while a vestige and a plane are indeed different, the general principle of binding something to your soul should still work the same, it would just be more difficult with a plane because forging a link would be considerably harder. Same general method but considerably more effort, because planes do indeed differ from vestiges in quite a few ways.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Allthegoodnamesweretaken 05-28-07, 11:09 AM	Wouldn't it make for an interesting epic style Vestige for the Binder class to be able to bind a plane? It would likely be epic because it's a step above and beyond simply binding a singular entity, plus the complications of the plane not being a vestige per-say. Or binding a powerful concept, like the Cadence. After all, who said the only thing you could bind had to be vestiges, you could apply the general principle of binding to a powerful enough concept, in my opinion. And on a more general note, how do you think Binders (Base class from Tome of Magic, for reference) are viewed on the planes? I think they're probably not hunted down like the ones presented in Tome of Magic on the material plane, but can't think of anything else. They'd probably be treated like any other spellcaster.
sciborg2 05-28-07, 03:16 PM	I think Binders are looked at with dismay and are pariahs. They connect to place that is almost the opposite of all other planes in terms of existing, and to me that makes the place of the vestiges more distant than the Far Realm. You can kill an illithid, or even a daelkyr if need be. How, though, can you kill a vestige. I think Asmodeus collects binders and used them to see if Geryon, now beyond the Dark Lord's power, might bear a grudge from that all to distant other side of all the realities of the Multiverse.
Deacon Liadon 05-28-07, 03:43 PM	I'd say the modrons would probably be commanded to hunt down and slay anyone who is know to bind Primus or Tenebrous.
Taeldrin Laesrash 05-28-07, 03:50 PM	Wouldn't it make for an interesting epic style Vestige for the Binder class to be able to bind a plane? It would likely be epic because it's a step above and beyond simply binding a singular entity, plus the complications of the plane not being a vestige per-say. Or binding a powerful concept, like the Cadence. After all, who said the only thing you could bind had to be vestiges, you could apply the general principle of binding to a powerful enough concept, in my opinion. It's a neat idea; however, I think that if you tried to bind to your soul the most unbridled representation of an alignment force (One of the planes), as such an unbalanced soul, you'd shed your mortality and become actual Good or Evil or whatever and become something intangible. Basically, instead of getting a cool vestige, you'd become the cool vestige.
Deathmond 05-28-07, 04:21 PM	I remember reading somewhere about a sentient plane...this makes me want to take my current binder character on a massive quest to try and find and bind one :D
Allthegoodnamesweretaken 05-28-07, 07:34 PM	It's a neat idea; however, I think that if you tried to bind to your soul the most unbridled representation of an alignment force (One of the planes), as such an unbalanced soul, you'd shed your mortality and become actual Good or Evil or whatever and become something intangible. Basically, instead of getting a cool vestige, you'd become the cool vestige. What if you counterbalanced it by binding a plane with an alignment directly opposite that of the plane you're binding? Mind you, this could very well simply result in a massive explosion (like when positive and negative meet), but it'd be a net trick if it worked without going kaboom from conflicting forces.
ArcTan 05-28-07, 10:37 PM	Wouldn't it make for an interesting epic style Vestige for the Binder class to be able to bind a plane? It would likely be epic because it's a step above and beyond simply binding a singular entity, plus the complications of the plane not being a vestige per-say. Or binding a powerful concept, like the Cadence. After all, who said the only thing you could bind had to be vestiges, you could apply the general principle of binding to a powerful enough concept, in my opinion. And on a more general note, how do you think Binders (Base class from Tome of Magic, for reference) are viewed on the planes? I think they're probably not hunted down like the ones presented in Tome of Magic on the material plane, but can't think of anything else. They'd probably be treated like any other spellcaster. The reason you can only bind vestiges is because vestiges don't really exist. I.e. they're not distinct, conscious entities with any real power of their own -- binding a vestige is taking a general idea that has no particular place to live and giving it one (i.e. a floating Platonic essence without form). Planes are the opposite of vestiges. Not only does a plane exist as a particular place, it is everything that exists within one whole concept of place. As for whether people hate Binders on the Outer Planes, I don't know. You can flavor it one way or the other, but I don't see why planars would be any less likely to hate the Binders than primes. The reasoning is exactly the same -- the whole concept of vestiges continuing to exist and being sources of power is a threat to the assumptions that underlie the way the Powers work, so the Powers and their servants would be deeply hostile to them. The Outer Planes are where the hatred and enmity of the Powers and their servants matters more, not less. Orcus fears and hates the vestige of Tenebrous, and this hatred would matter more in a place with more direct access to his layer of the Abyss than on the Prime. Heironeous and Hextor fear the vestige of their servant who became the vestige Savnok, and this matters more on planes with access to their domains. Etc. Also, the Seropaeneans might not exist in their listed form outside the Prime (and, indeed, outside the world of Oerth), they're stated to have been a creation of the Regulators, an Epic-level planeswide conspiracy from the ELH, whose tendrils would certainly also extend to the Outer Planes and Sigil.
Allthegoodnamesweretaken 05-28-07, 10:43 PM	The Athar are liable to like binders at any rate. (Edit:I'd imagine the Athar would sympathize with a person who is hated by the powers) And while a vestige and a plane are indeed different, the general principle of binding something to your soul should still work the same, it would just be more difficult with a plane because forging a link would be considerably harder. Same general method but considerably more effort, because planes do indeed differ from vestiges in quite a few ways.