traveling through the transitive planes [Archive] - Wizards Community

traveling through the transitive planes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
_Nova_
08-25-07, 10:39 AM ok my question is fairly simple

I know that the astral plane only reaches the first layer of the Abyss, Pazunia, is that true also for the plane of shadow and the ethereal plane?
and what about the other outer planes? For instance is it possible to access Stygia directly through the ethereal planes?
Naderion
08-25-07, 11:23 AM The astral Plane reaches everywhere. There are no places that can't be reached through astral.

The etheral plane only connects with the material plane. The only place you can reach from the etheral plane are the material and the astral.
Shemeska the Marauder
08-25-07, 12:28 PM The Plane of Shadow only touches the prime material.

The Astral plane (in 3e) touches everything unless otherwise specified (such as the innermost rings of the Outlands, and Sigil). It only touches the first layers of each Outer Plane. Conceptually speaking (and in earlier editions) the Astral served as the transitive between the outer planes and the prime material.

The Ethereal Plane (in 3e) nominally only touches the prime material. But conceptually speaking (and in earlier editions) the ethereal was the transitive connecting the prime material and the inner planes.

The changes to the Astral and Ethereal in 3e were literally done for no reason other than because some game mechanics changed for one or two spells, and rather than change the mechanics, they randomly changed planar structure. The changes however stand at odds with what the Astral and Ethereal represent conceptually, so you'll find conflict between the RAW and lore written about them (including 3.x lore). I'm hoping that 4e addresses the issue.
Gray Richardson
08-25-07, 01:25 PM The Shadow Plane is also coterminous only with the Material Plane. You cannot use it to travel to the outer planes. Although it is coterminous with all Material Planes. So you could use it to travel to other material plane worlds and universes. You could travel from Faerūn to Greyhawk to Eberron. But not to Stygia.
ArcTan
08-25-07, 09:16 PM The Ethereal Plane (in 3e) nominally only touches the prime material. But conceptually speaking (and in earlier editions) the ethereal was the transitive connecting the prime material and the inner planes.

The changes to the Astral and Ethereal in 3e were literally done for no reason other than because some game mechanics changed for one or two spells, and rather than change the mechanics, they randomly changed planar structure. The changes however stand at odds with what the Astral and Ethereal represent conceptually, so you'll find conflict between the RAW and lore written about them (including 3.x lore). I'm hoping that 4e addresses the issue.

They changed the flavor too. Notice that the Ethereal Plane has no real explanation of *how* you go into the Deep Ethereal, and that the Deep Ethereal's traditional description (as a wonderfully animated dreamscape) has no resemblance to the modern Ethereal Plane's description as literally nothing other than a misty reflection of the Prime.

They switched the Ethereal and the Shadow, in other words. The Ethereal is literally the "shadow" of the Prime, i.e. a dim reflection of everything the Prime is that is perennially less than the Prime, never more. The Shadow is the expression of all potentials and unknowns and semi-real things that the Prime *could be* but isn't -- which is why it's the logical place to go to find alternate Primes and such.

Notice that the latter explanation of what the Shadow Plane is fits a lot of things *better*, like the idea of the Shadowcaster, or the shadow walk spell, or shadow illusions. The Ethereal being less than the Prime makes more sense when you think of the Ethereal as the home of Ghosts.

Basically, the Ethereal and the Deep Ethereal were two contradictory concepts they tried to cram into one plane, and "graduating" Shadow from a mere demiplane to a real plane was a way for them to have someplace else to put the concept of "source of all potentiality" that didn't conflict with "faded shadow of the real".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_Nova_ 08-25-07, 10:39 AM	ok my question is fairly simple I know that the astral plane only reaches the first layer of the Abyss, Pazunia, is that true also for the plane of shadow and the ethereal plane? and what about the other outer planes? For instance is it possible to access Stygia directly through the ethereal planes?
Naderion 08-25-07, 11:23 AM	The astral Plane reaches everywhere. There are no places that can't be reached through astral. The etheral plane only connects with the material plane. The only place you can reach from the etheral plane are the material and the astral.
Shemeska the Marauder 08-25-07, 12:28 PM	The Plane of Shadow only touches the prime material. The Astral plane (in 3e) touches everything unless otherwise specified (such as the innermost rings of the Outlands, and Sigil). It only touches the first layers of each Outer Plane. Conceptually speaking (and in earlier editions) the Astral served as the transitive between the outer planes and the prime material. The Ethereal Plane (in 3e) nominally only touches the prime material. But conceptually speaking (and in earlier editions) the ethereal was the transitive connecting the prime material and the inner planes. The changes to the Astral and Ethereal in 3e were literally done for no reason other than because some game mechanics changed for one or two spells, and rather than change the mechanics, they randomly changed planar structure. The changes however stand at odds with what the Astral and Ethereal represent conceptually, so you'll find conflict between the RAW and lore written about them (including 3.x lore). I'm hoping that 4e addresses the issue.
Gray Richardson 08-25-07, 01:25 PM	The Shadow Plane is also coterminous only with the Material Plane. You cannot use it to travel to the outer planes. Although it is coterminous with all Material Planes. So you could use it to travel to other material plane worlds and universes. You could travel from Faerūn to Greyhawk to Eberron. But not to Stygia.
ArcTan 08-25-07, 09:16 PM	The Ethereal Plane (in 3e) nominally only touches the prime material. But conceptually speaking (and in earlier editions) the ethereal was the transitive connecting the prime material and the inner planes. The changes to the Astral and Ethereal in 3e were literally done for no reason other than because some game mechanics changed for one or two spells, and rather than change the mechanics, they randomly changed planar structure. The changes however stand at odds with what the Astral and Ethereal represent conceptually, so you'll find conflict between the RAW and lore written about them (including 3.x lore). I'm hoping that 4e addresses the issue. They changed the flavor too. Notice that the Ethereal Plane has no real explanation of how you go into the Deep Ethereal, and that the Deep Ethereal's traditional description (as a wonderfully animated dreamscape) has no resemblance to the modern Ethereal Plane's description as literally nothing other than a misty reflection of the Prime. They switched the Ethereal and the Shadow, in other words. The Ethereal is literally the "shadow" of the Prime, i.e. a dim reflection of everything the Prime is that is perennially less than the Prime, never more. The Shadow is the expression of all potentials and unknowns and semi-real things that the Prime could be but isn't -- which is why it's the logical place to go to find alternate Primes and such. Notice that the latter explanation of what the Shadow Plane is fits a lot of things better, like the idea of the Shadowcaster, or the shadow walk spell, or shadow illusions. The Ethereal being less than the Prime makes more sense when you think of the Ethereal as the home of Ghosts. Basically, the Ethereal and the Deep Ethereal were two contradictory concepts they tried to cram into one plane, and "graduating" Shadow from a mere demiplane to a real plane was a way for them to have someplace else to put the concept of "source of all potentiality" that didn't conflict with "faded shadow of the real".