Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Johnny_Angel 09-12-07, 04:11 PM	I know this sounds crazy, but I'm starting to believe that Vecna and Boccob are the same god. Vecna -Cleric/Wizard of emmense power -instructs his followers to seek out obscure lore and knowledge -believes that magic is some sort of serpent-like-being that should be revered Boccob -Cleric/Wizard of emmense power -His clerics seek out obscure lore and knowledge -believes that magic is the ultimate truth and force Now, I realize that with such a vast pantheon there are many D&D gods that share similarities, but I got bored the other day and decided to re-read Deities & Demigods. It's uncanncy how many similarities there are between the belief structures of both gods.
ripvanwormer 09-12-07, 05:03 PM	Tie the Xammux in somehow and I'm sold.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-12-07, 05:06 PM	Tie the Xammux in somehow and I'm sold. Tie the what now? This would be very cool to discover though, in game I mean. How on earth would people react?
420 09-12-07, 05:11 PM	Tie the what now? From Book of Vile Darkness (pg. 12) The Xammux Not a single god, but an entity of at least six separate beings, the Xammux represents cold, analytical thinking taken to its extreme. The Xammux serves as the patron of utter indifference and of delving into forbidden knowledge through exploration and experimentation. It would be cool if Boccob and Vecna represented two of the six beings that made up the Xammux. -420
Johnny_Angel 09-12-07, 05:15 PM	Xammux is a god from the Book of Vile Darkness IIRC, but it's been a while since I've flipped through that book. Seriously though, if you read the section on Boccob and then the section on Vecna, there are a lot of similarities -both between the gods and between their churches & followers. As I said in my first post, I know there are many D&D gods with similarities, but the amount of similarities between Boccob and Vecna seems more than coincidental. That would be quite a twist though. However, it would explain a lot of plot holes. Supposedly Vecna lost some of his power after his fight with the Lady of Pain, but maybe he didn't. Perhaps it was a lie that he started to cover up the fact that he was both gods; in reality he's still a greater diety. This is one of those ideas I'll have to remember for a later campaign.
Johnny_Angel 09-12-07, 05:16 PM	From Book of Vile Darkness (pg. 12) It would be cool if Boccob and Vecna represented two of the six beings that made up the Xammux. -420 Thanks for refreshing my memory 420.
420 09-12-07, 05:35 PM	Maybe Ilsensine, the illithid deity, can also be grouped with the "Xammux continuum". (Sorry for the Star Trek influence, I couldn't resist.) -420
Ornum 09-12-07, 07:21 PM	If it's simply gods of knowledge that are needed to fill the roles, there are several to choose from. As mentioned, Ilsensine, but also possibly Oghma, Shar, or even Thoth.
sevenslayer 09-12-07, 07:29 PM	A smarter Tharizdun could totally be part of the xammux, cause he is the god of entropy.:eek:
Silver_Bulette 09-12-07, 07:59 PM	No way, not Boccob! He's my favorite... I must get to the bottom of this!:detect: *Silver Bulette Away!* Wait, The Xammox? Is he yellow and squeaky?
420 09-13-07, 02:24 AM	No way, not Boccob! He's my favorite... I know how you feel, I'm a big Boccob fan too (Isn't he the little brother of Aoxomoxoa?). However, the idea is just so damn intriguing. I once did something similar in a campaign involving... well, lets just say, some powerful entities that had some remarkable similarities. -420
ManTimeForgot 09-13-07, 04:12 AM	While I'm sure the idea bears something plotting:plotting: out for an alternate prime campaign or something on that order; I am fairly certain I remember reading that Vecna was once a mortal, whereas I remember nothing suggesting that the same was ever once true of Boccob. As for Xammux... sure why not. I've never used any of the materials from either BoVD or BoED except for a little torture, drug, and poison stuff. But whatever floats people's respective boats... I can certainly see the draw of this figure, though I prefer a more Faustian figure for the role of "god" of cold, callous, rational thought. MTF
DwarfPcfan 09-13-07, 10:32 AM	I disagree with that statement, just as I disagree (Yes you hear me all I'm ready to scream it atop the mountains) that Pelor is evil as some posters have wasted a lot of time doing. (all they've proven is circular and faulty logic) Fact of the matter is that Vecna started as nothing more then an insane evil wizard. Then he got ambitious:plotting: :evillaugh built am empire of evil and rose as the most powerful lich to walk the material world of Oerth. Then Kas decided he was'nt taking order from a crazy old man anymore... and they both got into a classic epic battle in true anime villain style Then other crazy evil mages got the idea that Vecna was cool and starting praying to the evil lich for power allowing Vecna to become a minor demigod because of worship... Vecna liked that because it allowed him to return from the dead and become a demigod... But the Dark Powers liked Vecna too... Vecna and Kas (who somehow survived the battle) were trapped in Ravenloft as Darklords... But Vecna was crazy smart, crazy yes, but crazy smart and he found ancient planar loopholes to force his way out of Ravenloft... Then... Their cluster in Ravenloft collapsed and Kas was again destroyed where upon he became a vestige for Binders as the Dark Powers had no further use for him... Meanwhile, Vecna uses Iuz's divine nature as a catalyst in a loophole to force himself into Sigil and beat the crap out of her serene Lady of Pain. He enters Sigil with deific power and almost, just almost succeeds in remaking the multiverse into his personal domain (still nobody knows the true extant of the damage he did)... Vecna survives the fight thanks to his worshipers on Oerth and reforms to return as an Oeridian minor deity of magic, lies and secrets. That's where we are right now. Sources: 2nd material (Book of Artefacts, Planescape, Ravenloft material, Die Vecna Die module) How is that proof, Because, Boccob was running around as a Greater Power when all these events were happening, He trapped Thariduzun in a magic prison even before the idea of Vecna even existed, had his library in the Outlands, etc. Fact of the matter is that Boccob's been kicking around long before Vecna came around. The only real similarity is that they are both god's of magic and lore (even if they don't see it the same way) People should stop looking for conspiracies that designers don't even have teh forethough, or time, to even begin to anticipate...
Ornum 09-13-07, 11:14 AM	I disagree with that statement, just as I disagree (Yes you hear me all I'm ready to scream it atop the mountains) that Pelor is evil as some posters have wasted a lot of time doing. (all they've proven is circular and faulty logic) Fact of the matter is that Vecna started as nothing more then an insane evil wizard. Then he got ambitious:plotting: :evillaugh built am empire of evil and rose as the most powerful lich to walk the material world of Oerth. Then Kas decided he was'nt taking order from a crazy old man anymore... and they both got into a classic epic battle in true anime villain style Then other crazy evil mages got the idea that Vecna was cool and starting praying to the evil lich for power allowing Vecna to become a minor demigod because of worship... Vecna liked that because it allowed him to return from the dead and become a demigod... But the Dark Powers liked Vecna too... Vecna and Kas (who somehow survived the battle) were trapped in Ravenloft as Darklords... But Vecna was crazy smart, crazy yes, but crazy smart and he found ancient planar loopholes to force his way out of Ravenloft... Then... Their cluster in Ravenloft collapsed and Kas was again destroyed where upon he became a vestige for Binders as the Dark Powers had no further use for him... Meanwhile, Vecna uses Iuz's divine nature as a catalyst in a loophole to force himself into Sigil and beat the crap out of her serene Lady of Pain. He enters Sigil with deific power and almost, just almost succeeds in remaking the multiverse into his personal domain (still nobody knows the true extant of the damage he did)... Vecna survives the fight thanks to his worshipers on Oerth and reforms to return as an Oeridian minor deity of magic, lies and secrets. That's where we are right now. Sources: 2nd material (Book of Artefacts, Planescape, Ravenloft material, Die Vecna Die module) How is that proof, Because, Boccob was running around as a Greater Power when all these events were happening, He trapped Thariduzun in a magic prison even before the idea of Vecna even existed, had his library in the Outlands, etc. Fact of the matter is that Boccob's been kicking around long before Vecna came around. The only real similarity is that they are both god's of magic and lore (even if they don't see it the same way) People should stop looking for conspiracies that designers don't even have teh forethough, or time, to even begin to anticipate... I'm pretty sure that most of us here didn't need to get the whole history lesson of Vecna. The very question of his mortality and rise to godhood had entered my mind, but for the sake of this thread, I explained it in my head as Vecna was destroyed (possibly by Xammux, who wanted to learn Vecna's secrets) and one of Xammux's aspects took his name and faked the whole "rise to godhood". Why? He's secretive and didn't want to let others know what he did. Or something along those lines. It's really just an excuse to give this thread some merit for the interesting theory presented. No one is saying that this is a conspiracy. Although we don't know for sure, I'd be willing to bet that any similarities are coincidental, or just simply unimaginative because both gods deal with knowledge. This thread is about an interesting theory, nothing more.
Alas 09-13-07, 11:20 AM	At the very least, the thread raises the question, "What is the god of secrets biggest secret?" That's the sort of hook a campaign can be built around.
Ornum 09-13-07, 11:32 AM	At the very least, the thread raises the question, "What is the god of secrets biggest secret?" That's the sort of hook a campaign can be built around. Or that there is something very fundamental to Vecna's own existance that he doesn't know, even as a god of secrets. The ultimate secret about himself and one that would probably drive him completely insane should he ever find it out.
vegetalss4 09-13-07, 03:07 PM	Or that there is something very fundamental to Vecna's own existance that he doesn't know, even as a god of secrets. The ultimate secret about himself and one that would probably drive him completely insane should he ever find it out. wich can also explain why he IS completely insane;)
Bedlamtom 09-14-07, 09:51 AM	Simple solution to the dilema. Boccob decided to create a human form, a low powered avatar wizard. It explains why Vecna had such an easy time ascending. Vecna was always a part of Boccob.
Frost Reaver 09-14-07, 10:25 AM	Simple solution to the dilema. Boccob decided to create a human form, a low powered avatar wizard. It explains why Vecna had such an easy time ascending. Vecna was always a part of Boccob. Indeed. In fact, it may be that Vecna was the sum of undesirable parts of Boccob's own being, which he wanted to get rid of: His ambition; his coveting of knowledge, his caring.
Rohano 09-15-07, 04:25 AM	Grayhawk deities fascinate me with the ways in which they all have commonalities yet they subtly differ. Has anyone read that article in Dragon about St. Cuthbert? He can't stand even talking to all the other justice deities, that cracks me up. "They're so similar yet they hate one another." In that manner, I love Grayhawk gods a lot more than the gods of pretty much any other mythos. Boccob and Vecna are in the same boat. They have a lot of similarities but the fundamental differences make them too different to even talk to one another. The only way you could get Boccob to even acknowledge Vecna's existence is if Vecna had a big chunk of knowledge and offered it to Boccob. Even so, Boccob might not care, knowing a scam was in the works and therefore saw no reason to even give Vecna the old "I don't give a rat's ass" via singing telegram. If you feel like running some crazy Bizarroworld Grayhawk BS, go for it. Make Vecna and Boccob the same guy. But also consider making all the other Grayhawk gods facets of greater gods. St. Cuthbert and Heironeous, the same guy? Celestian and Fharlanghn, not just brothers but the same guy? Iuz and Asmodeus? Sure, why not.
yrogerg 09-16-07, 11:33 AM	Indeed. In fact, it may be that Vecna was the sum of undesirable parts of Boccob's own being, which he wanted to get rid of: His ambition; his coveting of knowledge, his caring. Huh. Isn't that pretty much the story behind Eberron's gods of magic?
zook1shoe666 09-16-07, 11:57 AM	From Book of Vile Darkness (pg. 12) It would be cool if Boccob and Vecna represented two of the six beings that made up the Xammux. -420 Maybe Ilsensine, the illithid deity, can also be grouped with the "Xammux continuum". (Sorry for the Star Trek influence, I couldn't resist.) -420 interesting concept :)
Novem 09-16-07, 12:18 PM	If Vecna was the original, and Boccob created, it would explain Boccob's antipathy- Vecna wouldn't want himself discovered, would he?
Frost Reaver 09-17-07, 06:28 AM	Huh. Isn't that pretty much the story behind Eberron's gods of magic? I wouldn't know.
Prime32 09-17-07, 04:22 PM	Huh. Isn't that pretty much the story behind Eberron's gods of magic? No, it's the story of Piccolo :rolleyes:
Frost Reaver 09-17-07, 04:40 PM	Clearly Piccolo is actually Boccob... That is, Kami is the avatar of Boccob in Dragon Ball Z, and Piccolo the avatar of Vecna.
PhaedrusXY 09-17-07, 04:54 PM	Interesting thread. Except for the DBZ stuff...
Starcloud 09-17-07, 05:44 PM	If Vecna was the original, and Boccob created, it would explain Boccob's antipathy- Vecna wouldn't want himself discovered, would he? Except for the fact that Boccob has been around since the dawn of time and Vecna has only been around for a few hundred years, that might have been an interesting hypothesis. Vecna was a human wizard who became a lich, then a quasi-deity. The Ravenloft guys decided to put Vecna into Ravenloft, despite the fact that there was already a crazy uber-lich in the setting, then decided that they needed an explanation for the changes to the planes and wrote up the horrible, horrible module known as "Die, Vecna, Die" wherein Vecna... doesn't... die and ends up becoming a Greater God (iirc). Seriously, from Mortal to Greater God inside of a thousand years? Sorry, Greyhawk isn't the Forgotten Realms.
Nadaka 09-17-07, 05:52 PM	Throw in Nyarlyhotep just for giggles. ;)
Banatine 09-17-07, 06:20 PM	Seriously, from Mortal to Greater God inside of a thousand years? Sorry, Greyhawk isn't the Forgotten Realms. What are you talking about? My character became a greater god in about 100 years. All you need is a nation, and power enough to deserve worship (not hard to acheive). True, I also killed quite a few quisi-deities and stole their power.
Lucon_Talestar 09-17-07, 07:13 PM	http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/112/vecnaqk0.jpg Vecna's secret! Vecna's secret! Vecna's secret!
Prime32 09-18-07, 01:31 PM	http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/112/vecnaqk0.jpg Vecna's secret! Vecna's secret! Vecna's secret! Worms and plastic minnows! (How on earth did I remember that? :confused: )
Deacon Liadon 09-19-07, 06:13 PM	Hmmm. Perhaps it goes something like this... Boccob had always been a god, since the dawn of the multiverse as far as some are concerned. Though there are some that are older, these number few indeed. For countless millenia Boccob strove to learn the secrets of the multiverse. Life arrived on the material planes and brought with it new gods. Soon Boccob found himself taking an interest in these beings and their strange ways. Though they only lived for the briefest of moments when compared to other creatures in the multiverse, they held in that time some of the greatest power there is. Eventually, afterdecades, centuries, millenia of watching and recording, boccob felt he could learn no more as he was and so using the knowledge he had garnered, he created an aspect of himself. One that would live as other mortals and, when it died, all the knowledge it had gained would be taken back by Boccob and with it, perhaps, the answer to the greatest of mysteries. The plan went well at first. Boccob would occasionally view his mortal "son" and was pleased when the boy took an interest in magic. But his other projects took up his time, and when next he looked, Vecna had become more powerful than any other mortal, leading armies across the world he had been born onto, conquring nations and instilling fear into the hearts of those around him. But Boccob was the Uncaring, and he reasoned that the boy would soon die, as all men did, and his power would return to Boccob as was planned. Imagine his suprise when he found Vecna didn't die, but had instead used the powerful magics that were his birthright to gain immortality as an undead creature. In this form he became even more powerful than he had ever been before and would likely have conquered all of Oerth, had it not been for Kas's betrayal. When Vecna disappeared into the mists of Raveloft, Boccob became fearful. Things were happening that could not have been accounted for in the experiment, and now Vecna had disappeared. If another deity had found Vecna and realised his nature he could have stolen the power that Boccob had invested in his mortal aspect, forever weakening the god of magic. To this extent Boccob began to search for Vecna, eventually finding him concealed inside the demiplane known as Ravenloft. To prevent a contamination of the experiment, Boccob managed to penetrate the mists of Ravenloft and was able to appear to Vecna as a gigantic serpent, whispering knowledge to him in the hopes that Vecna would be able to use the knowledge to escape Ravenloft before Boccobs essence was stolen from him. The ruse succeeded, though Vecna had gained to great an attachment to the serpent guise for Boccob to use it again, and Vecna was able to escape from the prison plane using the power of Iuz to propel himself into Godhood. Now Boccob still waits, ever watchful of Vecna, waiting for the aspect of himself to be slain so that he can gain all the knowledge that he originally created the lich-god for and ever hoping that the god of secrets doesn't gain the secret of himself, for that woudl taint the experiment to a point where it would be irrecoverable.
Thanael 09-20-07, 10:17 AM	Veeery nice. Does Vecna know his own greatest secret or is he completely unaware of it? Does Boccob still know or has he forgotten? Is there perhaps another secret of Vecna's that even Boccob isn't aware of? How did Vecna become evil? Where any other powers involved in that?
DoomedHero 09-21-07, 02:48 AM	This is great stuff. The idea that the secret of his own existence is unknown to the god of secrets is too poetic and cool to pass up. *steals idea, runs off* An interesting though is what would happen if Vecna found out? If he still had some connection to Boccob, could he try to use it to syphon (maybe even completely absorb) the Greater God's powers and knowledge? Or maybe that's what Boccob is waiting for. Vecna thinks he's absorbing Boccob, but the whole idea was that eventually they'd become one again. What's Boccob got up his sleeve? Or did it already happen without anyone noticing? The actually ARE one god, and are just keeping up appearances for their own reasons. Sweet.
Prime32 09-21-07, 01:03 PM	"I am neither Vecna nor Boccob. I am... THE DEITY!!!" :D
Sunblast 09-21-07, 01:26 PM	Wow, this stuff is good. Deacon Liadon's story sums it all up perfectly as well. It makes me wish I were a DM...
darkneolink 09-24-07, 03:09 PM	I like Deacon's point of view (at least is better than mine) the gods wanted to know the secret of life, the universe and everything and they asked Boccob he said that he needed to think about it and told them to come back after many milenias. When they asked him again he answered "42" the gods were not pleased. But Boccob explained to them that they should understand the question first. So they ordered to him to find a way to understand the question and he created a mortal and named him Vecna now the secret is the question
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-24-07, 04:54 PM	The title of this thread sounds like a racy fan-fic.
Bloodsoul 09-26-07, 09:54 AM	Thanks, now suddenly I've got the image of Vecna in lingerie stuck in my brain. >.< Certainly an interesting connection that would make for a good plot; when Vecna was still a greater deity who would've been stronger; he or Boccob? And, when merged, who would've then had been the dominant force (or would it just return to Boccob as default)? I keep imagining Xammux as a Quintesson from The Transformers. *runs off to stat some Sharkticons*
Lord Zeb 09-26-07, 02:24 PM	:clap: :clap: :clap: Love this idea! And Boccob as the Serpent works on a much less predictable level than Asmodeus as Serpent. Perhaps when he split off his experiment, he became "the Uncaring" as his passion went with Vecna's mortal creation?
rex_subterrae1008 10-06-07, 04:05 PM	I like Deacon's point of view (at least is better than mine) the gods wanted to know the secret of life, the universe and everything and they asked Boccob he said that he needed to think about it and told them to come back after many milenias. When they asked him again he answered "42" the gods were not pleased. But Boccob explained to them that they should understand the question first. So they ordered to him to find a way to understand the question and he created a mortal and named him Vecna now the secret is the question Hmmm... Hitchhiker's Guide to the Multiverse? lol.
Triyu 10-06-07, 04:42 PM	Thanks, now suddenly I've got the image of Vecna in lingerie stuck in my brain. >.< You have unfolded Vecna's greatest secret, the fact that he knows Victoria's Secret!
rex_subterrae1008 10-06-07, 05:01 PM	You have unfolded Vecna's greatest secret, the fact that he knows Victoria's Secret! Maybe that's why he's evil... lol.
Triyu 10-06-07, 05:12 PM	Maybe that's why he's evil... lol. Vecna: I feel pretty, oh so pretty, oh so pretty and witty and, EVIL, that I pity, any god that isn't me today!
rex_subterrae1008 10-07-07, 01:12 PM	Vecna: I feel pretty, oh so pretty, oh so pretty and witty and, EVIL, that I pity, any god that isn't me today! Please don't remind me of that Adam Sandler movie Anger Management... Unless, of course, you're implying that Jack Nicholson is Vecna (who is Boccob)...
Knitsuge 10-07-07, 02:02 PM	I love this! Kind of the story of Christianity gone very wrong... Jesus has nail prints as scars of his mortal life, Vecna has his missing hand and eye. Shoot, throw in Matthew 5:29-30 into the mix, and you could really have fun with it!
locustechpriest 10-08-07, 08:39 PM	Perhaps Boccob was responsibly for Kas's betrayal. The intrigue of alternately betraying then redeeming one's own son, all for the sake of the ultimate question. And all this without his knowing it... I imagine Boccob wouldn't want Vecna to be the undisputed world leader, as that might preclude his demise. What better way to bring him back into the fold than to arrange an assassination. Unfortunately, it didn't kill him... it made him stronger... eventually.
Frost Reaver 10-10-07, 07:12 AM	Thanks, now suddenly I've got the image of Vecna in lingerie stuck in my brain. >.< Ugh... You bastard. That image is going to stay with me a while. :(
Tovec 10-29-07, 01:19 AM	I know this sounds crazy, but I'm starting to believe that Vecna and Boccob are the same god. Vecna -Cleric/Wizard of emmense power -instructs his followers to seek out obscure lore and knowledge -believes that magic is some sort of serpent-like-being that should be revered Boccob -Cleric/Wizard of emmense power -His clerics seek out obscure lore and knowledge -believes that magic is the ultimate truth and force Now, I realize that with such a vast pantheon there are many D&D gods that share similarities, but I got bored the other day and decided to re-read Deities & Demigods. It's uncanncy how many similarities there are between the belief structures of both gods. I would agree with this except for a few small problems. Vecna was mortal. While gods have been known to split off in the past, two or more personalities with similar abilities, they are not mortal. Vecna was a mortal king who became a lich and then ascended. This would assume that there would be birth and lineage records for Vecna. Also the fact that Boccob is uncaring whereas Vecna has been one of the secretly more active deities in DnD. Vecna has a large mythos, including the problems with his lieutenant Kas. I'm sure there is more and I'm not thinking straight so I'll try and come back to this later.
Knitsuge 10-29-07, 02:28 AM	I would agree with this except for a few small problems. Vecna was mortal. While gods have been known to split off in the past, two or more personalities with similar abilities, they are not mortal. Vecna was a mortal king who became a lich and then ascended. This would assume that there would be birth and lineage records for Vecna. Also the fact that Boccob is uncaring whereas Vecna has been one of the secretly more active deities in DnD. Vecna has a large mythos, including the problems with his lieutenant Kas. I'm sure there is more and I'm not thinking straight so I'll try and come back to this later. Read through the whole thread. We've already had some fun with the problems you mentioned! :D
Tovec 10-30-07, 11:27 PM	Read through the whole thread. We've already had some fun with the problems you mentioned! :D I got as far as posts 13 + 14. 13 was rambling but more or less well thought out and AS SOON as 14 rolled around Your side lost me. This is insane. I have no love for either Boccob or Vecna. I really don't care. Arcane secrets and lore does not interest me, I'm a monk. I doubly refuse to have a conversation about a random god out of a random book and how a couple of regular pantheon deities are secretly him. You just plain lost me and, as far as I'm concerned, lost your argument.
Knitsuge 10-31-07, 12:42 AM	I got as far as posts 13 + 14. 13 was rambling but more or less well thought out and AS SOON as 14 rolled around Your side lost me. This is insane. I have no love for either Boccob or Vecna. I really don't care. Arcane secrets and lore does not interest me, I'm a monk. I doubly refuse to have a conversation about a random god out of a random book and how a couple of regular pantheon deities are secretly him. You just plain lost me and, as far as I'm concerned, lost your argument. I'm not arguing anything. Besides, ultimately the DM can say Vecna is really Micky Mouse. I just thought it was an interesting thought, that's all. Lighten up a little, please. After all, you are the one that posted on this thread. D&D is a game, and as such does not need to be taken so seriously.
Lord Zeb 10-31-07, 09:06 AM	I'm not arguing anything. Besides, ultimately the DM can say Vecna is really Micky Mouse. I just thought it was an interesting thought, that's all. Lighten up a little, please. After all, you are the one that posted on this thread. D&D is a game, and as such does not need to be taken so seriously. QFT! Also, Tovec read over #33 -great idea for the hows and whys this would work. It's a thought experiment that I would totally have running in the background for a GH campaign.
TimelordSimone 10-31-07, 04:28 PM	I just read through this whole thread... And I am totally stealing this idea for my campaign! I am also hoping none of my players read this thread...