Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kakita_Duelist 05-28-07, 09:28 PM	ok, so I have a few questions about these (very confusing, imho) beings 1) if tenebrous is a vestige, how did Orcus come back? Aren't He and Orcus the same? 2) How did Vecna go about during Kas into a vestige? 3) Why is Primus a vestige? is this a previous Primus, with a Secondus turned Primus now in control, or is there an absence of leadership in Mechanus?
Millenia 05-28-07, 09:59 PM	1) Tenebrous as a vestige is the discarded divinity of Orcus. 2) I assume that by "during," you mean "turning." I have no clue, but he probably just kickbanned Kas from the multiverse, much like what occured with Leraje, Olidammara, and Savnok. 3) The Primus vestige is the Primus that was killed by Tenebrous. There is a current Primus as well, the one that ascended soon after from a Secondus (after much trouble with Tenebrous and a dispute with another Secondus).
ArcTan 05-28-07, 10:29 PM	1) The point is that Tenebrous and Orcus are not the same. Orcus somehow changed drastically in abilities, appearance, personality and goals when he became Tenebrous. It's almost as though Tenebrous was some kind of "force" that Orcus tapped into and took him over. Orcus became Orcus again by "rejecting" Tenebrous, but there was something "alive" about that force that was left over. 2) No one knows. You don't have to do anything in particular to turn someone into a vestige -- indeed, the particular means by which someone becomes a vestige is unknown, and there's no known way to purposely turn someone into a vestige. Vestiges are, by definition, what's left over when you destroy someone utterly by all conventional definitions, but there's still something about them that lingers, because they were especially significant or important or meaningful figures. To make a vestige out of Kas, all you'd have to do would be to kill Kas and destroy all traces of his spirit everywhere, and yet have that death not be "satisfying" enough for the multiverse to let the idea of Kas go. 3) Yes. Tenebrous killed the old Primus, upon which a new Secundus was promoted to Primus, but the vestige of the old Primus remained (probably because this succession was an extremely messy one).
Shemeska the Marauder 05-29-07, 12:06 AM	ArcTan covered it pretty cleanly. I see #1 as being that Orcus's existance as Tenebrous was tainted by the influx of negative energy that gave him his lingering quasi-life, and it was distinct enough from his true essence that once his astral corpse was revived by Quah-Nomag, that temporary version of him (potentially through its use of the Last Word) had imprinted the multiverse enough that some echo or universal memory of it remained behind with enough potency that Binders can still call it up. The vestige of tenebrous is less an actual being than it is a memory of something that no longer exists, and binders provide enough potency to revive that pattern into something marginally tangible.
Deper 05-30-07, 06:48 PM	ok, so I have a few questions about these (very confusing, imho) beings 1) if tenebrous is a vestige, how did Orcus come back? Aren't He and Orcus the same? As others have said, Tenebrous is the discarded divinity of Orcus. They were split when the ritual to bring Orcus back to life (rather than the undead godhood he had) was interrupted, returning Orcus to his former demonhood and dispersing his divinity. I believe it's in the Planescape adventure "Dead Gods", but I could be wrong. 2) How did Vecna go about during Kas into a vestige? When Vecna escaped Ravenloft, he tore himself free from the constraints of the demiplane. His particular domain was part of a two domain cluster, the other domain being lorded by Kas. The assumption is that when Vecna tore himself free, he shattered not only his domain, but the one connected to it. Since Kas was bound to his domain, he was thrown out of existance, along with the rest of the Cluster. But being as strong as he was, Kas became a vestige. It wasn't something Vecna likely did on purpose, since it would effectively ensured Kas could interfere with his interests for eternity, and that there would never ever be an end to their conflict. Kas accidentally becoming a vestige adds another aspect to Vecna's interest in destroying binders). 3) Why is Primus a vestige? is this a previous Primus, with a Secondus turned Primus now in control, or is there an absence of leadership in Mechanus? Before becoming Orcus again, Tenebrous used a word that could kill to destroy the former Primus. Then, before a Secundus could be raised to replace the fallen Primus, Tenebrous took his place. Since Tenebrous disrupted the normal recycling of energy, Primus became a Vestige. My theory is that by taking over for Primus, there was no need to promote anything below it, so the energy that would normally be recycled wasn't accepted properly back into the pool.
ArcTan 05-31-07, 06:17 PM	As others have said, Tenebrous is the discarded divinity of Orcus. They were split when the ritual to bring Orcus back to life (rather than the undead godhood he had) was interrupted, returning Orcus to his former demonhood and dispersing his divinity. I believe it's in the Planescape adventure "Dead Gods", but I could be wrong. I don't think it was a "mistake" or that Orcus could ever have been resurrected without destroying Tenebrous, because the point of Tenebrous was that he was dead, and derived power from being dead. When Vecna escaped Ravenloft, he tore himself free from the constraints of the demiplane. His particular domain was part of a two domain cluster, the other domain being lorded by Kas. The assumption is that when Vecna tore himself free, he shattered not only his domain, but the one connected to it. Since Kas was bound to his domain, he was thrown out of existance, along with the rest of the Cluster. But being as strong as he was, Kas became a vestige. It wasn't something Vecna likely did on purpose, since it would effectively ensured Kas could interfere with his interests for eternity, and that there would never ever be an end to their conflict. Kas accidentally becoming a vestige adds another aspect to Vecna's interest in destroying binders). Kas *can't* interfere with Vecna's interests for eternity, because Kas no longer exists. That's the point of vestiges, and something people don't seem to understad -- *vestiges no longer exist*. They aren't people. They have no real consciousness, no real will, no ability to affect events or even desire to affect events, because they aren't really *there*, so to speak. A vestige is an *idea*. It's like a fictional character. It's a set of abilities and thematic characteristics and thoughts that kind of go together. But they have no more conscious existence. That's why vestiges can't know anything or impart knowledge to the binder; why they can't desire anything or, even if they influence the binder, change the binder's large-scale goals and ideals. (In mechanical, metagame terms -- the conversations you have with vestiges while binding them are not amenable to any social skill checks like Diplomacy, Bluff, or Gather Information, and you cannot gain any information or research by talking to vestiges. Vestiges lack any alignment, and a vestige's Influence may *not* change your alignment or be based on alignment in any way.) Anyone can bind Kas, for any reason, and *does* bind Kas for any reason. Someone who served Vecna could theoretically bind Kas to serve Vecna's goals, even if Vecna's orthodox clergy wasn't cool with it. "Kas" would have no problem with it; Kas wouldn't object. Kas *can't* object, because there's nothing left of Kas to object -- just some abilities that anyone with a powerful enough will can pick up, and a general attitude and way of thinking that vaguely go along with those abilities that anyone strong enough of will can resist. That's why vestiges can't be found anywhere on the planes, and why they can grant power to as many people simultaneously as can bind them without diminishing, and show no preference whatsoever about the uses to which they're put, even if you do something antithetical to their former nature (a CG character binding Geryon to fight Devils gets no penalty to fighting Devils, even if he fails his binding check and acquires Influence). Many of the "paradoxes" about vestiges go away when you realize the simple fact that Vestiges Don't Exist Anymore -- the fact that they're vestiges means the entity they once were is *gone*. The churches that hate vestiges do so because they reverse the idea behind gods -- a vestige, unlike a god, is a thing that grants *you* power to do whatever *you* want based on your link to it, not vice versa -- it has no goals and ideals other than the ones you give it, as opposed to gods, whose purpose is to give goals and ideals to their followers. Anti-binder Clerics say things about vestiges that betray their lack of knowledge. It's important to note that binders know that what they say is false. Vestiges are *not* demons, or false gods, or monsters, or anything at all. Vestiges do *not* come from anywhere; they do not want anything, other than to exist briefly through you; they do not have any alignment; they cannot "possess" you and therefore cannot "corrupt" you. They are the opposite of fiendish possession -- the vestige doesn't take you over and use your powers to do what it wants. You take over the vestige and use its powers to do what you want. Because vestiges are no longer capable of wanting anything -- they gain desire and direction and existence through the binder. Before becoming Orcus again, Tenebrous used a word that could kill to destroy the former Primus. Then, before a Secundus could be raised to replace the fallen Primus, Tenebrous took his place. Since Tenebrous disrupted the normal recycling of energy, Primus became a Vestige. My theory is that by taking over for Primus, there was no need to promote anything below it, so the energy that would normally be recycled wasn't accepted properly back into the pool. Well, what happened was that a CE entity briefly ruling the Modrons corrupted them with a seed of Chaos, allowing Modrons to "go rogue". The time spent under Tenebrous gave the Modrons enough free will that when a new Primus emerged, a rogue Secundus was able to rebel against it and take a bunch of Modrons with it.
Deper 05-31-07, 07:13 PM	I don't think it was a "mistake" or that Orcus could ever have been resurrected without destroying Tenebrous, because the point of Tenebrous was that he was dead, and derived power from being dead. Tenebrous didn't get power from being dead... If that were the case every petitioner would be a God. Tenebrous was Undead and worshipped as a lord of the Undead. Now, I haven't read Dead Gods in a while, but I think it made it clear that Orcus was going to come back full strength, godhood and all. Have to check on that. EDIT: Ok... Arctan, you really need to read the Tenebrous entry in the Tome of Magic. Look at the Legend. It states that his plan to rise again and become a God as Orcus failed because it was thwarted by adventurers. /EDIT Kas *can't* interfere with Vecna's interests for eternity, because Kas no longer exists. That's the point of vestiges, and something people don't seem to understad -- *vestiges no longer exist*. They aren't people. They have no real consciousness, no real will, no ability to affect events or even desire to affect events, because they aren't really *there*, so to speak. *SNIPPED BECAUSE NOT IMPORTANT TO THE MATTER BEING DISCUSSED* I know what a Vestige is, what they can and can't do, and why clerics hate binders. But you need to read Kas's influence, since you obviously missed something. "Kas further requires his host to kill any follower of Vecna or undead creature encountered. " EDIT:A follower of Vecna could bind Kas (though he would be a poor follower if he was a binder, as well as using Kas), but if he fails the binding check he has to start hacking at any of his fellow cultists he bumps into or take the penalty for breaking the influence. Now imagine binders that are nearby who don't have anything in particular against killing followers of Vecna. Or even worse, Knights of the Sacred Seal that dedicate themselves to Kas. /EDIT Even in vestig-itude, Kas gets in the way of Vecna's plans. EDIT: As for vestige's having no will, consciousness, or desire, you're wrong. They are still aware. They can communicate with the binder whenever they are summoned (and not just about binding them or making a pact). They desire to experience the world, and put limits on the binder according to their personalities. For example, Primus refuses to bind with anyone who has recently (or is) bound to Tenebrous because he knows and hates Tenebrous. Kas still despises Vecna. Amon is bitter over his lost followers and hates other Gods as a result. They are still characters, they just have very little actual effect on the world. /EDIT Well, what happened was that a CE entity briefly ruling the Modrons corrupted them with a seed of Chaos, allowing Modrons to "go rogue". The time spent under Tenebrous gave the Modrons enough free will that when a new Primus emerged, a rogue Secundus was able to rebel against it and take a bunch of Modrons with it. The Primus vestige is the Primus that Tenebrous killed. Everything else you mentioned happened after Tenebrous took his place. The Primus vestige was energy that needed to enter back into the energy pool, only that energy is automatically recycled to upgrade other modrons to keep the number in each caste (including Primus) constant. But with Tenebrous as Primus, the old Primus would have become excess energy. And with a group as Lawful as the Modrons, I doubt their energy pool allows any excess energy.
ArcTan 05-31-07, 08:05 PM	Tenebrous didn't get power from being dead... If that were the case every petitioner would be a God. Tenebrous was Undead and worshipped as a lord of the Undead. Tenebrous was Undead, yes, therefore not alive. Orcus couldn't resurrect as Orcus and still be Tenebrous. At least, this is the flavor the vestige gives it. EDIT: Ok... Arctan, you really need to read the Tenebrous entry in the Tome of Magic. Look at the Legend. It states that his plan to rise again and become a God as Orcus failed because it was thwarted by adventurers. /EDIT Orcus would've been a different god. He would no longer have been Tenebrous. That was the point -- he was *already* a god as Tenebrous, and already incredibly, unimaginably powerful as Tenebrous. He wanted to be a god "as Orcus". Had some remnant of Orcus' personality not longed for Orcus' former identity, Tenebrous as he was would've been unstoppable -- Orcus was the obstacle that stopped Tenebrous. [quote]I know what a Vestige is, what they can and can't do, and why clerics hate binders. But you need to read Kas's influence, since you obviously missed something. "Kas further requires his host to kill any follower of Vecna or undead creature encountered. " EDIT:A follower of Vecna could bind Kas (though he would be a poor follower if he was a binder, as well as using Kas), but if he fails the binding check he has to start hacking at any of his fellow cultists he bumps into or take the penalty for breaking the influence. Now imagine binders that are nearby who don't have anything in particular against killing followers of Vecna. Or even words, Knights of the Sacred Seal that dedicate themselves to Kas. /EDIT All he needs to do is either resist Kas' influence or not encounter any cultists of Vecna (unless you interpret the Influence as requiring suicide). I can totally imagine a heretical/insane binder working for Vecna using Kas in this way -- in fact it's one of the first things I imagined. Even in vestig-itude, Kas gets in the way of Vecna's plans. All right, fair point. Kas still can't *make plans*, though. No amount of failure on Influence will say "Now you have to follow Kas' new master plan for stopping Vecna and dethroning him". It wouldn't be possible -- even if I were a loyal worshipper of Kas who *wanted* to do it, Kas couldn't help me. EDIT: As for vestige's having no will, consciousness, or desire, you're wrong. They are still aware. They can communicate with the binder whenever they are summoned (and not just about binding them or making a pact). Well, the flavor is for these conversations to never yield anything of importance, and to frequently be confusing, self-contradictory and disjointed. Amun might ask you the same set of questions every time he appears as though he doesn't remember anything, for instance. They desire to experience the world, and put limits on the binder according to their personalities. For example, Primus refuses to bind with anyone who has recently (or is) bound to Tenebrous because he knows and hates Tenebrous. Kas still despises Vecna. Amon is bitter over his lost followers and hates other Gods as a result. They are still characters, they just have very little actual effect on the world. Well, it goes beyond that. A CG Binder gets no restrictions on binding Geryon. Geryon can't stop you from binding him if you're CG. Geryon doesn't seem to care. He *can't* stop you from binding him if you're CG, or from making full use of his power. You can be LG and bind Tenebrous. You can be LG and bind Tenebrous and use Tenebrous' powers to attack Orcus' minions. Importantly, vestiges are never listed with an alignment, and their Influence is never something alignment-based, nor ever something more complex than "When X happens, do Y". Vestiges have *thoughts*, sure, and *personalities*. But they cannot make or execute plans. It's not even clear they can remember each instance of being bound or gain information or knowledge from it. The various Binder PrCs often imply that you can somehow resurrect a vestige, though that belief on the parts of the Dantalion or Tenebrous worshippers may be mere wishful thinking. It's pretty certain that if any of them succeeded in their tasks, though, they wouldn't be vestiges anymore. The Primus vestige is the Primus that Tenebrous killed. Everything else you mentioned happened after Tenebrous took his place. The Primus vestige was energy that needed to enter back into the energy pool, only that energy is automatically recycled to upgrade other modrons to keep the number in each caste (including Primus) constant. But with Tenebrous as Primus, the old Primus would have become excess energy. And with a group as Lawful as the Modrons, I doubt their energy pool allows any excess energy. Wasn't the point of Tenebrous killing Primus to *take* Primus' energy? And control of the Modrons along with it?
Deper 05-31-07, 08:29 PM	Tenebrous was Undead, yes, therefore not alive. Orcus couldn't resurrect as Orcus and still be Tenebrous. At least, this is the flavor the vestige gives it. [quote]EDIT: Ok... Arctan, you really need to read the Tenebrous entry in the Tome of Magic. Look at the Legend. It states that his plan to rise again and become a God as Orcus failed because it was thwarted by adventurers. /EDIT Orcus would've been a different god. He would no longer have been Tenebrous. That was the point -- he was *already* a god as Tenebrous, and already incredibly, unimaginably powerful as Tenebrous. He wanted to be a god "as Orcus". Had some remnant of Orcus' personality not longed for Orcus' former identity, Tenebrous as he was would've been unstoppable -- Orcus was the obstacle that stopped Tenebrous. Tenebrous was never a seperate being. It was simply a seperate name that Orcus used. Orcus's sole desire as Tenebrous had always been to reclaim his life as Orcus, and take the divinty with him. The vestige is the cast of Divinity, given a mind of it's own. All he needs to do is either resist Kas' influence or not encounter any cultists of Vecna (unless you interpret the Influence as requiring suicide). I can totally imagine a heretical/insane binder working for Vecna using Kas in this way -- in fact it's one of the first things I imagined. I agreed that all he had to do was ignore the influence or take the penalty (since it might be hard for an active cultist to avoid all friends evertime he binds Kas. All right, fair point. Kas still can't *make plans*, though. No amount of failure on Influence will say "Now you have to follow Kas' new master plan for stopping Vecna and dethroning him". It wouldn't be possible -- even if I were a loyal worshipper of Kas who *wanted* to do it, Kas couldn't help me. I never said that Kas could plan, only that he could interfere. His influence creates situations where meetings that might normally be fine suddenly put cultists at risk. I'm not saying that he's going to overthrow Vecna, but the influence is there. And it's got to **** Vecna off to know that he still isn't rid of Kas. Well, the flavor is for these conversations to never yield anything of importance, and to frequently be confusing, self-contradictory and disjointed. Amun might ask you the same set of questions every time he appears as though he doesn't remember anything, for instance. True. But that doesn't mean they're mindless. There isn't a lot of information about vestiges. For all we know they see all time at once, can't really remember much because of the nature of where they are, or they might be aware of every possible multiverse out there (so they know about my home campaign world, your home campaign world, everyone's version of Oerth and the Great Wheel, etc) so they are right, but not for your world. Well, it goes beyond that. A CG Binder gets no restrictions on binding Geryon. Geryon can't stop you from binding him if you're CG. Geryon doesn't seem to care. He *can't* stop you from binding him if you're CG, or from making full use of his power. You can be LG and bind Tenebrous. You can be LG and bind Tenebrous and use Tenebrous' powers to attack Orcus' minions. I agree they are totally ammoral now. The way it is described, they can technically refuse, but only do it for someone who isn't skilled enough to handle binding with them. They don't answer calls of those who they can't actually bind with, but the fact that they came means that they have agreed to the pact, they just want to discuss terms. The reason for this is that the Vestiges want to experience the world again more than anything else. It has little to do with them being mindless or at the Binder's whims. Importantly, vestiges are never listed with an alignment, and their Influence is never something alignment-based, nor ever something more complex than "When X happens, do Y". Vestiges have *thoughts*, sure, and *personalities*. But they cannot make or execute plans. It's not even clear they can remember each instance of being bound or gain information or knowledge from it. The various Binder PrCs often imply that you can somehow resurrect a vestige, though that belief on the parts of the Dantalion or Tenebrous worshippers may be mere wishful thinking. It's pretty certain that if any of them succeeded in their tasks, though, they wouldn't be vestiges anymore. I have to disagree with the idea that the PrC's imply its possible to resurrect a vestige. Dantalion Scions aren't trying to resurrect the vestige, they are trying to bring back the Celestial Kingdom. Tenebrous cultists want to bring back their god, but that doesn't mean he can come back. They definitely don't plan (at least the way we know it), but there are suggestions that they do have more influence than is obvious (such as the suggested warping of binders into Deadly Dancers and Tooth Beasts). Wasn't the point of Tenebrous killing Primus to *take* Primus' energy? And control of the Modrons along with it? No, it was to take Primus's place and use the Grand Oerry and the Modrons to find his Rod. He needed the position, not the energy. Of course, the fate of the energy has never really been discussed (its silent on whether or not Tenebrous absorbed it or not). Could be either I guess. As I said, the dispersion theory is just my personal take.
Jeriaus 05-31-07, 08:54 PM	This may sound newbish too, but where are Kas and Primus as vestiges? I know there not in ToM, cuz i just checked.
glacialcat 05-31-07, 09:04 PM	This may sound newbish too, but where are Kas and Primus as vestiges? I know there not in ToM, cuz i just checked. Dragon Magazine #341 I believe.
Deper 05-31-07, 09:04 PM	This may sound newbish too, but where are Kas and Primus as vestiges? I know there not in ToM, cuz i just checked. Here's a list of the official extra vestiges and their locations. -Dragon Magic (Ashardolon) -Dragon #341 (Primus and Kas) -Vanus (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.p...d/dd/20060407a)) -Abysm, Arete, and The Triad (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.p.../psm/20070119a) -Astaroth and Deshartis (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a)
ArcTan 05-31-07, 09:06 PM	Tenebrous was never a seperate being. It was simply a seperate name that Orcus used. Orcus's sole desire as Tenebrous had always been to reclaim his life as Orcus, and take the divinty with him. The vestige is the cast of Divinity, given a mind of it's own. That's exactly what's mysterious about it. A "cast of divinity" *doesn't* get a "mind of its own". And while certainly it seemed obvious that Orcus was Tenebrous, the process by which Orcus became Tenebrous broke the rules (Orcus is an Outsider, who normally cannot become Undead, as Outsiders are destroyed when killed, they don't have a soul that departs the corpse) and, as pointed out, Tenebrous' personality and goals were quite different from Orcus. And, again, there's something odd about Orcus' determination to rule "as Orcus" rather than as Tenebrous -- if it was just a name, you wouldn't think it'd matter. It was Orcus' extreme determination to shed his Tenebrous nature and become Orcus again that foiled him, after all. I agreed that all he had to do was ignore the influence or take the penalty (since it might be hard for an active cultist to avoid all friends evertime he binds Kas. I never said that Kas could plan, only that he could interfere. His influence creates situations where meetings that might normally be fine suddenly put cultists at risk. I'm not saying that he's going to overthrow Vecna, but the influence is there. And it's got to **** Vecna off to know that he still isn't rid of Kas. Sure. My point was just that Vecna is still rid of Kas in every important way. Kas the vestige can never actually take his place as a deity anymore. True. But that doesn't mean they're mindless. There isn't a lot of information about vestiges. For all we know they see all time at once, can't really remember much because of the nature of where they are, or they might be aware of every possible multiverse out there (so they know about my home campaign world, your home campaign world, everyone's version of Oerth and the Great Wheel, etc) so they are right, but not for your world. I agree they are totally ammoral now. The way it is described, they can technically refuse, but only do it for someone who isn't skilled enough to handle binding with them. They don't answer calls of those who they can't actually bind with, but the fact that they came means that they have agreed to the pact, they just want to discuss terms. The reason for this is that the Vestiges want to experience the world again more than anything else. It has little to do with them being mindless or at the Binder's whims. Well, the way I interpret the flavor of "wanting to experience the world again more than anything else" is that there really isn't anything they can do at all besides basically be the Binder -- the book says it's not just that this is the only way they can see your plane, but the only way they can "exist" at all. (Remember, vestiges don't exist in any place -- just in some nebulous "Outside".) The main thing is that as a mechanical rule, vestiges can never do anything more or anything less than their powers and influence. The coolness of vestiges is that they really aren't like any other kind of entity we've ever seen. I have to disagree with the idea that the PrC's imply its possible to resurrect a vestige. Dantalion Scions aren't trying to resurrect the vestige, they are trying to bring back the Celestial Kingdom. Tenebrous cultists want to bring back their god, but that doesn't mean he can come back. Sure. Their existence implies someone thinks it's possible, is all. Dantalion-the-vestige *is* the embodied Celestial Kingdom -- presumably if the Celestial Kingdom really existed on Earth again, the vestige would have no reason to. Same if Tenebrous existed again as a deity with DvR. Of course, I interpret the point of being a vestige as meaning they don't and can't exist anymore. But the idea of them could certainly spur someone into thinking they could. They definitely don't plan (at least the way we know it), but there are suggestions that they do have more influence than is obvious (such as the suggested warping of binders into Deadly Dancers and Tooth Beasts). Right, but this "warping" is more like influence gone awry than anything else. It's still linked to the fact that the associated vestiges really want nothing more than to *exist*, and have lost whatever goals they had in life. No, it was to take Primus's place and use the Grand Oerry and the Modrons to find his Rod. He needed the position, not the energy. Of course, the fate of the energy has never really been discussed (its silent on whether or not Tenebrous absorbed it or not). Could be either I guess. As I said, the dispersion theory is just my personal take. My general take was that every time Tenebrous killed someone with the Final Word he got more powerful.
Deper 05-31-07, 09:23 PM	That's exactly what's mysterious about it. A "cast of divinity" *doesn't* get a "mind of its own". Why not? Magical weapons can develop their own personalities. Sites can absorb magic. Why wouldn't a divinity that was being worshipped as a seperate being not gain its own awareness when it is cast away and independant? And while certainly it seemed obvious that Orcus was Tenebrous, the process by which Orcus became Tenebrous broke the rules (Orcus is an Outsider, who normally cannot become Undead, as Outsiders are destroyed when killed, they don't have a soul that departs the corpse) and, as pointed out, Tenebrous' personality and goals were quite different from Orcus. Tenebrous's only goal was to become Orcus again and keep his divinity. That isn't exactly that different from Orcus's goals, which included becoming a full-fledged god. And, again, there's something odd about Orcus' determination to rule "as Orcus" rather than as Tenebrous -- if it was just a name, you wouldn't think it'd matter. It was Orcus' extreme determination to shed his Tenebrous nature and become Orcus again that foiled him, after all. I'll give you a bit of this. He wasn't trying to shake of Tenebrous, which was simply the name he adopted to disguise himself while working on his goals, he was trying to shake off the undead nature of Tenebrous. Sure. My point was just that Vecna is still rid of Kas in every important way. Kas the vestige can never actually take his place as a deity anymore. I don't think it matters to Vecna in the way that matters. He has never been able to destroy Kas, and Kas, in one way or another, has usually been involved in his greatest failures. Knowing that Kas has any influence has got to grate at him. Well, the way I interpret the flavor of "wanting to experience the world again more than anything else" is that there really isn't anything they can do at all besides basically be the Binder -- the book says it's not just that this is the only way they can see your plane, but the only way they can "exist" at all. (Remember, vestiges don't exist in any place -- just in some nebulous "Outside".) At the same time, while they don't exist, they do. They aren't mindslave to the binder. Far from. While bound, they have full use of the binders senses. They experience reality again. In return they hand over a portion of power for a time. They don't try to control beyond their influence, but they do get the ability to enjoy sensation once again. The main thing is that as a mechanical rule, vestiges can never do anything more or anything less than their powers and influence. The coolness of vestiges is that they really aren't like any other kind of entity we've ever seen. True. Pact magic is my favorite. They've been doing a good job of supporting it to. Sure. Their existence implies someone thinks it's possible, is all. Dantalion-the-vestige *is* the embodied Celestial Kingdom -- presumably if the Celestial Kingdom really existed on Earth again, the vestige would have no reason to. Same if Tenebrous existed again as a deity with DvR. Actually, the Vestige is made up of the souls of everyone related to the line of kings from the Celestial Kingdom, not the Celestial Kingdom itself. Even if the Celestial Kingdom itself is recreated, it doesn't change the fact that those souls are denied an afterlife. Dantalion probably won't go anywhere, since freeing those souls isn't necessary for recreating the kingdom. Also, Tenebrous is still granting spells, even as a vestige. Of course, I interpret the point of being a vestige as meaning they don't and can't exist anymore. But the idea of them could certainly spur someone into thinking they could. I think a vestige about to be reborn would make a great campaign. It's something I've been tossing around for a while. The problem is figuring out how to do it, since it deals with things that exist outside of reality. Right, but this "warping" is more like influence gone awry than anything else. It's still linked to the fact that the associated vestiges really want nothing more than to *exist*, and have lost whatever goals they had in life. Well, the actual nature of what happens is up to the DM. But it shows that they seem to have more influence than just asking a binder to do something for them. The Swarm of Crows is another example (since they didn't appear until after the creation of a specific vestige). My general take was that every time Tenebrous killed someone with the Final Word he got more powerful. Hard to say. I don't think it's stated anywhere in the adventure. I'll have to check when I find my copy.
ripvanwormer 05-31-07, 09:31 PM	No, if anything killing people with the Last Word made him weaker, since just knowing the word was slowly killing him. Of course, it wasn't the killing itself that weakened him, only the time it took to do so. The only slaying that made him more powerful was Primus's, since it gave him control over the modrons for a time.
Deper 05-31-07, 09:34 PM	No, if anything killing people with the Last Word made him weaker, since just knowing the word was slowly killing him. Of course, it wasn't the killing itself that weakened him, only the time it took to do so. The only slaying that made him more powerful was Primus's, since it gave him control over the modrons for a time. And it wasn't because he absorb Primus in killing him, it's because he hopped into the Oerry and took over, right?
ripvanwormer 05-31-07, 10:15 PM	And it wasn't because he absorb Primus in killing him, it's because he hopped into the Oerry and took over, right? Right. He plugged himself into Primus' Infinity Web.
Deper 05-31-07, 10:25 PM	Right. He plugged himself into Primus' Infinity Web. Tenebrous: Let's see... Google "Rod of Orcus"... Infinity Web: LoL! U d0nt kn0w wh3r3 t0 f1nd the R0d? Noob!!!!1!1!!!1
ArcTan 05-31-07, 10:29 PM	Why not? Magical weapons can develop their own personalities. Sites can absorb magic. Why wouldn't a divinity that was being worshipped as a seperate being not gain its own awareness when it is cast away and independant? For one thing, it would then become an actual deity or some kind of spirit, not a vestige. Tenebrous's only goal was to become Orcus again and keep his divinity. That isn't exactly that different from Orcus's goals, which included becoming a full-fledged god. Well, clearly it wasn't his *only* goal. If it was, then Tenebrous would no longer exist, would he/it? I disagree that the point of Tenebrous continuing to exist is that it represents Orcus wanting to still be a god. *Orcus* represents Orcus still wanting to be a god. Tenebrous is something different. I'll give you a bit of this. He wasn't trying to shake of Tenebrous, which was simply the name he adopted to disguise himself while working on his goals, he was trying to shake off the undead nature of Tenebrous. I don't think it matters to Vecna in the way that matters. He has never been able to destroy Kas, and Kas, in one way or another, has usually been involved in his greatest failures. Knowing that Kas has any influence has got to grate at him. Sure. At the same time, while they don't exist, they do. They aren't mindslave to the binder. Far from. While bound, they have full use of the binders senses. They experience reality again. In return they hand over a portion of power for a time. They don't try to control beyond their influence, but they do get the ability to enjoy sensation once again. Well... it can never really be proven one way or the other, but the thing about "not being mindslaves" -- how would you know? The vestige doesn't have any provable existence other than as a magical effect that you summon. The way I play it, anyway, the creepy thing about binders and vestiges is that vestiges may not be entities at all. On one level it's like a kind of magic spell -- "I can do something to gain some of Acererak's abilities, but if I do it wrong I also become a little bit like Acererak". Actually, the Vestige is made up of the souls of everyone related to the line of kings from the Celestial Kingdom, not the Celestial Kingdom itself. Even if the Celestial Kingdom itself is recreated, it doesn't change the fact that those souls are denied an afterlife. Dantalion probably won't go anywhere, since freeing those souls isn't necessary for recreating the kingdom. ...Enh. I'm not so sure about this. I see Dantalion's existence as a vestige as the result of whatever the Celestial Kingdom's gestalt ruling entity was being *destroyed*. I don't think the Celestial Kingdom's calling on their "ancestors" for help was based on binding or involved vestiges. Also, Tenebrous is still granting spells, even as a vestige. Well, his followers are *getting* spells. That's not quite the same thing. It's like being a Cleric who believes in a cause. I think a vestige about to be reborn would make a great campaign. It's something I've been tossing around for a while. The problem is figuring out how to do it, since it deals with things that exist outside of reality. I don't think I'd ever let it happen, myself. The idea of vestiges as not-really-real entities -- which is what "outside reality" means to me -- is really cool, and a lot more like what real magic traditions think about the "daemons of the Goetia" than D&D's schtick of demons *actually existing* as big dudes who hang around in another dimension (which daemons in modern magic don't do, because they don't exist). Well, the actual nature of what happens is up to the DM. But it shows that they seem to have more influence than just asking a binder to do something for them. The Swarm of Crows is another example (since they didn't appear until after the creation of a specific vestige). Enh. I still think that things like Kas' Influence cross the line of being too specific for Influence, unlike the examples given in ToM.
Deper 05-31-07, 11:13 PM	For one thing, it would then become an actual deity or some kind of spirit, not a vestige. Depends on how you look at divinity and the nature of belief. If Orcus created a cult that worshipped him under the name of Tenebrous, when he lost his divinity it had to go somewhere. And since Orcus has always been known as being unwilling to let go of existance that could easily have rubbed off on Tenebrous. If enough people believe in Tenebrous, then there may be one. That's why it is a vestige now instead of a god. Well, clearly it wasn't his *only* goal. If it was, then Tenebrous would no longer exist, would he/it? There wasn't. You won't find any mention of a goal outside of returning to life and keeping godhood. As for still existing, belief does funny things in the Great Wheel. I disagree that the point of Tenebrous continuing to exist is that it represents Orcus wanting to still be a god. *Orcus* represents Orcus still wanting to be a god. Tenebrous is something different. Tenebrous is the divine spark that Orcus lost. Divinity is a powerful thing, and it doesn't fade easily. Especially when it was possessed by something as grasping and selfserving as Orcus. Well... it can never really be proven one way or the other, but the thing about "not being mindslaves" -- how would you know? The vestige doesn't have any provable existence other than as a magical effect that you summon. We can. If the vestige didn't have some mind independant of the binder, it couldn't bargin with him or force an influence. And if it didn't have the mind to recognize when the binder has broken the influence, they couldn't know when to express a penalty. And then there's the fact that they remember binders who expell them before the 24 hours are up and be harder to strike a pact with the next time they are summoned. The way I play it, anyway, the creepy thing about binders and vestiges is that vestiges may not be entities at all. On one level it's like a kind of magic spell -- "I can do something to gain some of Acererak's abilities, but if I do it wrong I also become a little bit like Acererak". That's a nice idea, but it isn't the RAW. We can't really discuss vestiges as presented in the ToM if we're all wokring off houserules and personal interpretations. ...Enh. I'm not so sure about this. I see Dantalion's existence as a vestige as the result of whatever the Celestial Kingdom's gestalt ruling entity was being *destroyed*. I don't think the Celestial Kingdom's calling on their "ancestors" for help was based on binding or involved vestiges. The Legend states that Dantalion is the collection of the souls of the Celestial Kingdom's rulers, cursed by the gods to have no afterlife. Besides, the vestige isn't calling to its descendants. The Descendants are simply finding ways to improve their connection to a vestige they already have a deeper connection to. The PrC even states that they don't want to rule the new Kingdom so much as get it back up again. There is no suggestion that recreating it will have any effect on the vestige. Well, his followers are *getting* spells. That's not quite the same thing. It's like being a Cleric who believes in a cause. Still doesn't mean its possible to remove him from being a Vestige. I don't think I'd ever let it happen, myself. The idea of vestiges as not-really-real entities -- which is what "outside reality" means to me -- is really cool, and a lot more like what real magic traditions think about the "daemons of the Goetia" than D&D's schtick of demons *actually existing* as big dudes who hang around in another dimension (which daemons in modern magic don't do, because they don't exist). I'm thinking that it's an Epic level thing. After all, Chulopops (or whatever) is still physically around. If his soul came back... Enh. I still think that things like Kas' Influence cross the line of being too specific for Influence, unlike the examples given in ToM. Not really. It's no worse that spitting on the floor of a good temple and uttering an epitaph. It fits Kas perfectly, and it makes sense with his character. But because Vecna is a god of secrets, it isn't an influence that comes up often (since his followers don't announce themselves).
sciborg2 05-31-07, 11:50 PM	I'm reading about the vestiges right now and I'm not seeing the idea that vestiges have no identity nor any goals...
Shemeska the Marauder 06-02-07, 12:32 AM	I'm reading about the vestiges right now and I'm not seeing the idea that vestiges have no identity nor any goals... Depends on how you define what Vestiges are. Arctan's definition (which I agree with in the case of many vestiges) is that Vestiges are simply echoes of beings that impacted the multiverse in such a way that even when utterly destroyed, some imprint of them remains, and binders tap into that echo to channel the power inherent in it. However I'd strongly argue that Vestiges aren't a homogenous family, and actually comprise a number of rather different animals. Many are lingering echoes of utterly destroyed beings, but some are the essence of outsiders who once consumed or absorbed into their plane, or who have their essence scattered across the planes, remain coherent and distinct, and while only vaguely clinging to independant existance, they hunger to collect themselves back and reform, hungering to make themselves truly exist again. Such being lack that power, but binders give them a taste of what they want, and this might allow them an avenue to eventual return, or it might simply be binders exploiting their craving to be something more than their current state. Others might be beings who while still alive and still distinct might be trapped outside of the multiverse, in the Far Realm or somewhere else, and binders are able to tap into them through the metaphorical gulf between. Such beings might want to influence things in our reality, or they might be desperate to touch the reality they're seperated from and agonizingly wish to return to.
Naderion 06-02-07, 05:12 AM	But even if they are just the mind-patterns of creatures no longer existing, it wouldn't really change a thing how they behave.