Was Vorel the creator of the Orange, Purple, and Yellow dragons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Was Vorel the creator of the Orange, Purple, and Yellow dragons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
celestialkin
02-16-08, 11:37 PM For all those who have read the orange, purple, and yellow dragons' background story in Dragon Magazine and later the Dragon Compendium, and who have also read Vorel's background story, do you think there might be a connection there? Or did Tiamat go on a killing spree on her siblings?

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/OrangeDragonfromDragonMagazinesm-2.pnghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/PurpleDragonfromDragonMagazinesm-1.pnghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/YellowDragonfromDragonMagazinesm-1.png

Thanks in advance for your replies!

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/Signature%20dragons%20and%20monsters/reddragon.gif
****
Kain_Darkwind
02-17-08, 06:23 AM Vorel created them sounds as good a myth as any.
ripvanwormer
02-17-08, 11:42 AM Well, let's compare the two.

From the Dragon Compendium:

A radical and oft derided theory holds that the chromatic dragons have three "lost" siblings, the orange, purple, and yellow dragons. According to this theory, the chromatic dragon Tiamat once had a long forgotten sister and rival. Tiamat's sister, her name long since lost to history, spawned the three forgotten dragons shortly before her demise at her sister's fangs and claws.

From Races of the Dragon:

Long, long ago, Io created his first children, intent on perfecting all aspects of dragons. His first child was a striking creation, full of all the perfect, physical characteristics of dragonkind. Io named it Vorel, which means “beautiful” in Draconic. As it happened, Vorel had very limited intellect and discernment. Vorel was sweet-natured, bright-eyed, and eager to please, much as a friendly dog is with its master. Though it was flawed, Io still loved this little dragon. Io found that one form was too limited to contain everything he wanted to include. So he made two—one male and one female, one good and one evil.

Because yellow, orange, and purple dragons are all evil (as are chromatic dragons in general), it would make sense if Tiamat's sister and rival was evil as well. Vorel, on the other hand, seems to have been neutral. Io is all about balance, after all, and it sounds like he didn't split his children into good and evil until Tiamat and Bahamut were created.

It also sounds that he didn't split his children into male and female until Tiamat and Bahamut were created. Vorel is always called "it." Vorel was therefore not Tiamat's sister.

I don't know if two murders constitutes a "spree," but I don't think Vorel is the same as the nameless creator of the yellow, orange, and purple dragons.

What I think makes the most sense is that Tiamat's "sister" wasn't a separate being at all, but three extra heads growing from Tiamat's body, who the other five heads tore asunder in a jealous frenzy.
Rohano
02-17-08, 01:27 PM When does Io's story stop? Did he stop making children after Bahamut and Tiamat (and is it because he saw how much they fought)?

If he stopped making children on the basis that making each a representative of a specific facet of dragonkind led to too much conflict, then it would make sense that Tiamat's "sister" was, indeed, just three extra heads, during Tiamat's intial period wherein she would have been more hydra-like.
Vorel is an "it" because it is implied that Vorel was hermaphrodic. While I could easily discuss the themes involved, this isn't the mature board.

It could also be possible that Io intended for Bahamut and Tiamat to be the parents of the next generation of "perfect" dragons, and simply stopped making more "perfect" dragons while waiting for Bahamut and Tiamat to cease their battle.

I would assume that Vorel was a multicolored neutral dragon, probably more like a faerie dragon, while the "creator" of the orange, yellow and purple dragons were the three other heads of Tiamat.

If I were to pursue the subject, I'd say that Tiamat could have been much more powerful in the past, having some kind of chameleonic ability, which led to the creation of heads in new colors (each wanting to create dragons in their own image), but this ability was lost at some point and Tiamat was stuck with the basic chromatic colors (and wyvern tail), possibly because Tiamat was tired of the bickering between the different colors of heads and the resultant self-cannibalism.
ripvanwormer
02-17-08, 02:14 PM When does Io's story stop? Did he stop making children after Bahamut and Tiamat (and is it because he saw how much they fought)?

No, Io had other children, including: Faluzure (NE god of shadow dragons and undeath), Aasterinian (CN goddess of invention and pleasure), Hlal (CG goddess of faerie dragons, humor, storytelling, and inspiration), Chronepsis (N god of fate and death, sometimes said to be Io's brother), Lendys (LN god of justice), Garyx (CE god of fire), Tamara (NG goddess of mercy). There are other dragon gods, less well known, including Task (NE god of greed), Nathair Sgiathach (CG god of faerie dragons, who might be the same as Hlal), Kereska (CN goddess of magic), Zorquan (N god of "dragonness" who sounds similar to Vorel), Kalzareinad (NE god of magic), Sardior (N god of gemstone dragons), and Rais (LG goddess of silver dragons and intellect).

Io is also said to have spawned the "deep dragons" who sleep at the center of the worlds.
RavinRay
02-18-08, 06:25 PM There are other dragon gods, less well known, including Kereska (CN goddess of magic), Kalzareinad (NE god of magic), Sardior (N god of gemstone dragons)…
That's… so… unfair. Why should magic represented by two dragons and psionics only one? :smirk: :tongue:

My own bard's tale is that the missing three weren't originally evil, but chaotic instead (created by Hlal or Aasterinian), and that after an avatar of Tiamat slew an avatar of her sister deity, the three were corrupted.
ripvanwormer
02-20-08, 12:16 PM That's… so… unfair. Why should magic represented by two dragons and psionics only one?

Well, Kalzareinad died recently, so this is no longer a problem.
Kain_Darkwind
02-20-08, 03:39 PM Vorel created them sounds as good a myth as any.

What I think makes the most sense is that Tiamat's "sister" wasn't a separate being at all, but three extra heads growing from Tiamat's body, who the other five heads tore asunder in a jealous frenzy.

Hmm. I withdraw my comment. That sounds awesome.
LordMortanius
02-25-08, 09:19 AM Well, Kalzareinad died recently, so this is no longer a problem.

Falazure wishes to avenge him, I believe. Incidentally rip, you mistyped Aasterinian's alignment.
M-bark
02-25-08, 09:59 AM That's… so… unfair. Why should magic represented by two dragons and psionics only one? :smirk: :tongue:

Who is the dragon god of psionics then?

Also, I think the idea that Tiamat used to have more heads that were torn apart by the others seems like (one of) the most viable one(s).
ripvanwormer
02-25-08, 01:22 PM Who is the dragon god of psionics then?

Sardior.

you mistyped Aasterinian's alignment.

Whoops! Yeah, Aasterinian is chaotic neutral, not evil. Good catch.
The_Moof
05-13-08, 10:49 PM The stats for Sardior can be found here "The Legend of Sardior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030124a)".

For my game I have the unnamed sister of Tiamat being a dragon similar to Tiamat with five heads of the colors orange, purple, yellow, brown (from the Monsters of Faerun) and the gray dragon (which is a offshoot of the white dragon from the Dragonlance monster manual). The background I gave her is that Tiamat assumed to have killed her but she is in hiding on one of the levels of the Abyss plotting her revenge.
goldomark
05-14-08, 03:09 AM On Fearun, couldn't Tiamat's avatar appeare with yellow or brown heads. She still was limited to five heads, but she had seven colors to chose from.

Couldn't she also appeare as a dracolich?
RavinRay
05-14-08, 03:34 AM Avatars and aspects don't have to look exactly like their parent deity, so on Faerūn a multi-headed dragon with yellow and brown heads replacing others is possible. She might want to appear as a dracolich for the purposes of her church courting the Cult of the Dragon, although there's a chance she could be mistaken for Faluzure; or Faluzure himself might take offense, not that she's worried about that.
The_Moof
05-14-08, 05:30 PM That is what I always liked about this game, one D&D world is just as different as the next one. I really wouldn't know on the whole Tiamat thing when it comes to Forgotten Realms. I'm guessing if it is at all mentioned it more than likely be in the Forgotten Realms: Dragons of Faerun book. I might have to look that up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 02-16-08, 11:37 PM	For all those who have read the orange, purple, and yellow dragons' background story in Dragon Magazine and later the Dragon Compendium, and who have also read Vorel's background story, do you think there might be a connection there? Or did Tiamat go on a killing spree on her siblings? http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/OrangeDragonfromDragonMagazinesm-2.pnghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/PurpleDragonfromDragonMagazinesm-1.pnghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/YellowDragonfromDragonMagazinesm-1.png Thanks in advance for your replies! http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/Signature%20dragons%20and%20monsters/reddragon.gif ****
Kain_Darkwind 02-17-08, 06:23 AM	Vorel created them sounds as good a myth as any.
ripvanwormer 02-17-08, 11:42 AM	Well, let's compare the two. From the Dragon Compendium: A radical and oft derided theory holds that the chromatic dragons have three "lost" siblings, the orange, purple, and yellow dragons. According to this theory, the chromatic dragon Tiamat once had a long forgotten sister and rival. Tiamat's sister, her name long since lost to history, spawned the three forgotten dragons shortly before her demise at her sister's fangs and claws. From Races of the Dragon: Long, long ago, Io created his first children, intent on perfecting all aspects of dragons. His first child was a striking creation, full of all the perfect, physical characteristics of dragonkind. Io named it Vorel, which means “beautiful” in Draconic. As it happened, Vorel had very limited intellect and discernment. Vorel was sweet-natured, bright-eyed, and eager to please, much as a friendly dog is with its master. Though it was flawed, Io still loved this little dragon. Io found that one form was too limited to contain everything he wanted to include. So he made two—one male and one female, one good and one evil. Because yellow, orange, and purple dragons are all evil (as are chromatic dragons in general), it would make sense if Tiamat's sister and rival was evil as well. Vorel, on the other hand, seems to have been neutral. Io is all about balance, after all, and it sounds like he didn't split his children into good and evil until Tiamat and Bahamut were created. It also sounds that he didn't split his children into male and female until Tiamat and Bahamut were created. Vorel is always called "it." Vorel was therefore not Tiamat's sister. I don't know if two murders constitutes a "spree," but I don't think Vorel is the same as the nameless creator of the yellow, orange, and purple dragons. What I think makes the most sense is that Tiamat's "sister" wasn't a separate being at all, but three extra heads growing from Tiamat's body, who the other five heads tore asunder in a jealous frenzy.
Rohano 02-17-08, 01:27 PM	When does Io's story stop? Did he stop making children after Bahamut and Tiamat (and is it because he saw how much they fought)? If he stopped making children on the basis that making each a representative of a specific facet of dragonkind led to too much conflict, then it would make sense that Tiamat's "sister" was, indeed, just three extra heads, during Tiamat's intial period wherein she would have been more hydra-like. Vorel is an "it" because it is implied that Vorel was hermaphrodic. While I could easily discuss the themes involved, this isn't the mature board. It could also be possible that Io intended for Bahamut and Tiamat to be the parents of the next generation of "perfect" dragons, and simply stopped making more "perfect" dragons while waiting for Bahamut and Tiamat to cease their battle. I would assume that Vorel was a multicolored neutral dragon, probably more like a faerie dragon, while the "creator" of the orange, yellow and purple dragons were the three other heads of Tiamat. If I were to pursue the subject, I'd say that Tiamat could have been much more powerful in the past, having some kind of chameleonic ability, which led to the creation of heads in new colors (each wanting to create dragons in their own image), but this ability was lost at some point and Tiamat was stuck with the basic chromatic colors (and wyvern tail), possibly because Tiamat was tired of the bickering between the different colors of heads and the resultant self-cannibalism.
ripvanwormer 02-17-08, 02:14 PM	When does Io's story stop? Did he stop making children after Bahamut and Tiamat (and is it because he saw how much they fought)? No, Io had other children, including: Faluzure (NE god of shadow dragons and undeath), Aasterinian (CN goddess of invention and pleasure), Hlal (CG goddess of faerie dragons, humor, storytelling, and inspiration), Chronepsis (N god of fate and death, sometimes said to be Io's brother), Lendys (LN god of justice), Garyx (CE god of fire), Tamara (NG goddess of mercy). There are other dragon gods, less well known, including Task (NE god of greed), Nathair Sgiathach (CG god of faerie dragons, who might be the same as Hlal), Kereska (CN goddess of magic), Zorquan (N god of "dragonness" who sounds similar to Vorel), Kalzareinad (NE god of magic), Sardior (N god of gemstone dragons), and Rais (LG goddess of silver dragons and intellect). Io is also said to have spawned the "deep dragons" who sleep at the center of the worlds.
RavinRay 02-18-08, 06:25 PM	There are other dragon gods, less well known, including Kereska (CN goddess of magic), Kalzareinad (NE god of magic), Sardior (N god of gemstone dragons)… That's… so… unfair. Why should magic represented by two dragons and psionics only one? :smirk: :tongue: My own bard's tale is that the missing three weren't originally evil, but chaotic instead (created by Hlal or Aasterinian), and that after an avatar of Tiamat slew an avatar of her sister deity, the three were corrupted.
ripvanwormer 02-20-08, 12:16 PM	That's… so… unfair. Why should magic represented by two dragons and psionics only one? Well, Kalzareinad died recently, so this is no longer a problem.
Kain_Darkwind 02-20-08, 03:39 PM	Vorel created them sounds as good a myth as any. What I think makes the most sense is that Tiamat's "sister" wasn't a separate being at all, but three extra heads growing from Tiamat's body, who the other five heads tore asunder in a jealous frenzy. Hmm. I withdraw my comment. That sounds awesome.
LordMortanius 02-25-08, 09:19 AM	Well, Kalzareinad died recently, so this is no longer a problem. Falazure wishes to avenge him, I believe. Incidentally rip, you mistyped Aasterinian's alignment.
M-bark 02-25-08, 09:59 AM	That's… so… unfair. Why should magic represented by two dragons and psionics only one? :smirk: :tongue: Who is the dragon god of psionics then? Also, I think the idea that Tiamat used to have more heads that were torn apart by the others seems like (one of) the most viable one(s).
ripvanwormer 02-25-08, 01:22 PM	Who is the dragon god of psionics then? Sardior. you mistyped Aasterinian's alignment. Whoops! Yeah, Aasterinian is chaotic neutral, not evil. Good catch.
The_Moof 05-13-08, 10:49 PM	The stats for Sardior can be found here "The Legend of Sardior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030124a)". For my game I have the unnamed sister of Tiamat being a dragon similar to Tiamat with five heads of the colors orange, purple, yellow, brown (from the Monsters of Faerun) and the gray dragon (which is a offshoot of the white dragon from the Dragonlance monster manual). The background I gave her is that Tiamat assumed to have killed her but she is in hiding on one of the levels of the Abyss plotting her revenge.
goldomark 05-14-08, 03:09 AM	On Fearun, couldn't Tiamat's avatar appeare with yellow or brown heads. She still was limited to five heads, but she had seven colors to chose from. Couldn't she also appeare as a dracolich?
RavinRay 05-14-08, 03:34 AM	Avatars and aspects don't have to look exactly like their parent deity, so on Faerūn a multi-headed dragon with yellow and brown heads replacing others is possible. She might want to appear as a dracolich for the purposes of her church courting the Cult of the Dragon, although there's a chance she could be mistaken for Faluzure; or Faluzure himself might take offense, not that she's worried about that.
The_Moof 05-14-08, 05:30 PM	That is what I always liked about this game, one D&D world is just as different as the next one. I really wouldn't know on the whole Tiamat thing when it comes to Forgotten Realms. I'm guessing if it is at all mentioned it more than likely be in the Forgotten Realms: Dragons of Faerun book. I might have to look that up.