| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Malcadon12-15-07, 04:31 PM | The "Whats your favoirte demon lord?" (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=946805) thread list a lot of cool-ass Demon Lords and the "Whats your favorite archdevil?" (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=946806) had some good points (if shot-lived), but I what to find out what Demon Lords and/or Arch-devil do you HATE the most and why! I hate Malagard (aka the Hag Countess), as she never had a place in Hell and to have to see her fugly-ass face every time I open my BoVD (thank goodness for that sexy pic of Besmal on pg 69 to cheer me up every time). I think of Kostchtchie as the giant ****-tard of the Abyss. I still like Lolth, but I'm a bit ****** with how the writers from the last DemonWeb book made her this all power "Queen of the Abyss" that can dictate orders to all other Demon Lords (if she tried that in 1st ed, they would have ***** her to death - in mass!). |
| Stockvillain12-15-07, 04:53 PM | Demogorgon. I mean, c'mon. Orcus is obviously the true ruler of all creation, so why does Mr "Oh-Look-at-me-I'm-Possibly-THE-First-Tanar'ri-but I-got-two-Heads-and-Smell-Like-Wet-Ape" gotta keep harshin' his chill? Down with the two-headed ape-lizard! All hail Orcus [who obviously knows how to party - look at that beer belly!]!!!!! |
| Space_Dragon12-15-07, 05:01 PM | Abyssal lords I hate: Dagon: This is supposed to be what? Demogorgon lite? There is absolutely nothing about this guy that demogorgon doesn't do a better job of. We only need one madness-inducing, sea-dwelling, eldritch demon of chaos and horror, and Demo is cooler. Malcanthet: Take my complaint about Dagon, and replace "Demogorgon" with "Grazz't." We only need one archdemon of sexual perversion, and Grazz't is better. Fraz-Urblu: FAIL, GTFO. No further explanation needed. Archdevils I hate: Tiamat: I've always disliked DnD's portrayal of Tiamat as a small-time dragon godess. Making her lawful and associated with fire is just adding to the stupidity. Maybe if they redid her as the ruler of Stygia, I could stand it. Levistus: I think Levistus might be my single, least favorite being in the Great Wheel cosmology. His entire schtick is based around being trapped in an iceberg and being a whiny little emo ***** about it. Has he ever even done anything evil? His place should be taken by something akin to Dicefreaks' Leviathan or, even better, a more mythologically accurate Tiamat. Fierna: Belial is a better lord of Phlegathos. Glasya is a better temptress. Go away, Fierna, no one likes you. |
| setekh12-15-07, 05:09 PM | Asmodeus. Are you seriously telling me that this upstart sees all, hears all and Knows all that goes down in the nine hells? AND! That everything happens because he allows it, because it's part of some secret uber plan? He is either so thoroughly over-confidant that Mephistoles should just gack him off already, or the most boring 2 dimensional Lucifer wannabe I have ever seen. I fear option B. :rolleyes: Edit: Actually, I've just decided that he's going to try and overthrow the deific ruler of the nine hells and is bound to Tartarus as punishment. |
| Space_Dragon12-15-07, 05:12 PM | Asmodeus. Are you seriously telling me that this upstart sees all, hears all and Knows all that goes down in the nine hells? AND! That everything happens because he allows it, because it's part of some secret uber plan? He is either so thoroughly over-confidant that Mephistoles should just gack him off already, or the most boring 2 dimensional Lucifer wannabe I have ever seen. I fear option B. :rolleyes: Or he's fully aware of his own weaknesses, and is careful to spread propoganda that portrays him as allknowing and allpowerful. I agree that Asmodeous is kind of bland (especially in his latest incarnation as an unabashed Lucifer clone), but he's not terrible. Going with the Serpents of Law myth (which the third party sourcebooks Planes of Law and Gates of Hell both use), he's actually pretty cool. |
| setekh12-15-07, 05:19 PM | To be fair I never did get round to reading Gates of Hell. Might go and find it, see if it inspires some kind of retraction of my loathing for him. |
| navar10012-15-07, 05:23 PM | Orcus Just die already. |
| Zebppir12-15-07, 05:24 PM | 1.Orcus no one needs a obese demon who controls undead.Thats what liches and Uber undead are for 2.Grazz't and Malcanthet should have been together but that would put D&D into the mature brand 3. Demogorgon a demon ruler thats Bipolar how fun:rolleyes: |
| cat_god12-15-07, 06:08 PM | The Hag Countess. I mean, What the Hell? What's a night hag doing ruling a circle? I don't have FCII, but I heard that she was overthrown, so that's good, but whose idea was it for her to be there in the first place? seriously. |
| Shemeska the Marauder12-15-07, 06:22 PM | Going with the Serpents of Law myth (which the third party sourcebooks Planes of Law and Gates of Hell both use), he's actually pretty cool. Planes of Law isn't third party, nor does it contain anything related to the serpents of law myth. Gates of Hell is certainly 3rd party, being fan created, but I don't know if DF riffs off of the serpents of law myth any. Perhaps you're think of 'Guide to Hell' which is the book that introduced the myth, but it's not 3rd party either. |
| Shemeska the Marauder12-15-07, 06:26 PM | Demon lord Fraz-Urblu. I like his backstory a lot, however his form really puts me off for ever using him. Archdevil Moloch. His 1e picture does him in. He's big and out of shape, with little distinction in my eyes (2e's Apocalypse Stone module aside). |
| Space_Dragon12-15-07, 06:32 PM | Planes of Law isn't third party, nor does it contain anything related to the serpents of law myth. Gates of Hell is certainly 3rd party, being fan created, but I don't know if DF riffs off of the serpents of law myth any. Perhaps you're think of 'Guide to Hell' which is the book that introduced the myth, but it's not 3rd party either. Got mixed up there. I knew it was one of the two, but forgot which was which. I didn't read either of them (just heard numerous reports), so my accuracy isn't perfect. Thanks. Anyway, Dicefreaks did use Serpents of Law; I did read Gates of Hell, and it is explained in detail in their section on Asmodeous. |
| zook1shoe66612-15-07, 08:22 PM | Demon Lord Pale Night, why a chick in a bedsheet? Archdevil Baalzebul, who likes a giant slug? |
| Malcadon12-15-07, 08:34 PM | Archdevil Baalzebul, who likes a giant slug? Baalzebul was cool in 1st ed, but in BoVD they made him into a dame slug! One of the thing I hate about Wizards is how they like to f*** around with everything! :rolleyes: |
| Kojiro James12-15-07, 08:41 PM | Demon Lord Fraz-Urb'luu. Would you trust this boy who cried wolf any further than you can throw him? He's managed to screw up any possible future alliances he might gain by betraying or attacking everyone at least once. That isn't too bright. Archdevil Mammon. The guy looks fugly, and legend has it he's a crybaby. |
| Kojiro James12-15-07, 08:42 PM | Baalzebul was cool in 1st ed, but in BoVD they made him into a dame slug! One of the thing I hate about Wizards is how they like to f*** around with everything! :rolleyes: He was a slug in 2nd Edition too, and that wasn't WotC. That was still TSR. |
| sciborg312-16-07, 01:54 AM | Demogorgon (the fighting heads version) - this two head thing just seems like something out of a Saturday morning cartoon....despite being used well in Savage Tide and Bastion of Broken Souls. It just seems so laughable that the first tanar'ri and Prince of Demons can be manipulated as if it were the two-headed ogre from War Craft 2. Lolth - given way too much credit for being a goddess/demoness of a subspecies of a race. I really don't get her mass appeal beyond people liking drow females. Asmodeus - Okay, I don't dislike him per se, I just hate the idea of this guy no one can ever get the better of that I see promoted. The worst was the Asmodeus as serpent idea as it made the Athar faction utterly pointless and the other only missed their purpose in the planes by a 1000 miles or so. Baernoloths - See above. Again, so much cool stuff has been done with them, but I dislike how there have been too many attempts to make their creation of other fiends canonical rather than optional. I hate any of the creation myths being forced down my throat by publications. Triel/Baalzebulooga - My biggest problem is this idea that a lord of an infinite layer of a plane of pure evil just wastes his time making cities for no reason. Hag Countess (post Planescape) - this creature had far more potential as a true lady of the Nine. As a night hag usurper I could never wrap my head on how she made it into the big leagues of another plane. |
| goldomark12-16-07, 02:02 AM | Fraz-Urb'luu, a gargoyle with a walking-stick. |
| Novacat12-16-07, 03:22 AM | Orcus, but only because I'll be fighting him about 14 hours after this post. DIE DIE DIE!!! |
| The Serge712-16-07, 08:38 AM | A few things. Shemeska is right: Dicefreaks didn't use the Serpent of Law idea. Rather, we use something similar but one that incorporates the origins for "Primus" and acknowledges that all Law was once united (but LG was not Jazirian). The two ideas came into being close to the same time, although Pramas' material was printed years before minscfan and I created Dicefreaks and Kain Darkwind and Selah came along to help me flesh my ideas out. There are certainly similarities, unsurprising given that both Pramas and I use a lot of the same source material, but there are more than plenty of differences. However, The Gates of Hell does acknowledge the existence of Guide to Hell, but then we acknowledge virtually every "official" D&D book out there that references devils (and other fiends) even if we disagree with the material. Least Favorite WotC Demon Lord/Prince: Juiblex. WotC has done a terrible job with the Faceless Lord to the point that he shouldn't even be considered a demon lord/prince... He's dull and relatively weak and I wonder if any thought was put into making him at least somewhat threatening. Least Favorite WotC Arch-Devil: Mephistopheles. Mephistopheles is dull. Not only does he sharply diverge from his base-material, we don't need another fire-based devil running around (WotC already has Bel, Belial, and Fierna). His whole hellfire schtick would have made better sense in Phlegethos and they've all but abandoned any connection between 1ed's material as though 1ed never existed. A close second is Fierna, who's truly redundant. |
| Malcadon12-16-07, 10:32 AM | He was a slug in 2nd Edition too, and that wasn't WotC. That was still TSR. Thanks I did not know that. At the time, 2nd ed was so much like 1st ed that I ignored the concept of editions until I opened the 3rd ed MM in a book store when it first came out. Then it was later that I found out TSR had a great and dedicated staff of gamers but the business end was run by greedy apathetic ****-tards! I'm still a little p!ssed by how wizard keep trying to turn what is a great Role-Playing Game into a soulless, systematic Roll-Playing Game! |
| Novacat12-17-07, 01:12 AM | Orcus, but only because I'll be fighting him about 14 hours after this post. DIE DIE DIE!!! UPDATE: I fought him, he killed us. I have concluded that he's a cheaty bastard who needs to die a painful, stabbity death. |
| zopzop12-17-07, 02:44 AM | By far the most idiotic and boring demon "lord" has got to be Graz'zt IMHO. His back story, his appearance, his power, etc.. everything about him is second rate. For archdevils I'd go with Levistus. For most of the same reasons why I hate Graz'zt (appearance, story, power level, etc..). I'm hoping Asmodeus kicks his sorry ***** out of the Pit and Demogorgon eats him right after he finishes tearing Graz'zt to shreds. |
| Urithair12-17-07, 12:27 PM | How about Zuggamatoy the Lady of Fungus? When I first read about her I was like WTF EPIC FAIL!!!!! I also hate the 'Monstrous Humanoid Demon Prince", gnolls don't need their own demon prince, and neither do frost giants. |
| RAGNAROKISCOMING200712-17-07, 02:02 PM | Keep in mind, I don't hate Juiblex but he is my least favorite. I pretty much like all the demon lords and archdevils. |
| setekh12-17-07, 02:48 PM | Keep in mind, I don't hate Juiblex but he is my least favorite. I pretty much like all the demon lords and archdevils. Juiblx does atleast have an interesting Niche (His slow, methodical creeping death in... Moss ladies realm is really cool for me) He's just... You know, a bit rubbish. |
| RAGNAROKISCOMING200712-17-07, 03:18 PM | Juiblx does atleast have an interesting Niche (His slow, methodical creeping death in... Moss ladies realm is really cool for me) He's just... You know, a bit rubbish. pretty much. |
| Deinos12-18-07, 07:35 PM | 1.Orcus no one needs a obese demon who controls undead.Thats what liches and Uber undead are for QFT. It even says that Orcus even despises the undead, and intelligent undead do not serve him willingly. Some megafiends exist, only to be killed. That's why Orcus, Demogorgon, Moloch, etc. are so useless and annoying, that PCs won't feel reluctant to kill them. |
| GuyrtheadamantineOne12-18-07, 08:08 PM | What Demon Lord do you hate the most? I can't say which one I hate the most, since I crave pretty much anything evil. So, which do I love less? Yeenoghu, but he's alright. Not all races needs a god to their own image. |
| NoldorForce12-19-07, 12:22 AM | Demon Lord: Fraz-Urb'luu. As above, because he's not Chaotic Evil so much as (apparently) Chaotic Stupid. |
| Kain_Darkwind12-19-07, 12:45 AM | Fraz Urb'luu. A demon who arose from the muck, created entirely out of Epic Fail. What kind of douchebag gets trapped because they rolled a natural 1? |
| Disciple_of_Juiblex12-19-07, 09:21 AM | Atleast my lord isint universally despised... :) but for a guy who likes oozes, and unique characters hes the king for me. And lets not forget in monster manual 5 we got juiblexed water elementals and a demiplane for an (cool) avitar of his (which we show juiblex is far smarted than what most give him credit for), more than any other deamon lord in the book :P As far as least favorate Demon Lord, id have to say the bird guy. i cant remember his name (Pazoo?). Pretty boy needs to fall, hard and fast. As far as Arch devils go... hmmm. im guessing that i hate that father/daughter team. while i dident know much about the hag countess she sounded interesting :( |
| Keenath12-19-07, 09:50 AM | I can't stand Grazzt. He's the most flavorless, boring demon lord in existence. Pick up Grazzt and plunk him down in a circle of Hell and tell people he's an archdevil -- and nobody will be able to say you nay. Pretty much the same comments apply to that succubus-queen, whatever her name is. I like my demons freaky and really unique -- so I'm in favor of Demogorgon and Obox-ob, Dagon and Pale Night. Baphomet ain't bad either, with that awesome labyrinth layer; Dagon has the whole "weird sea monster" thing going that also references the Lovecraftian horrors; and so on. I don't mind Zuggy and Juiblex... I always thought a demon lord of slime was kinda cool, and he's nicely inhuman. The only thing that'll make me go "bleh" at a demon-lord is being boring -- which I define as "looking like a devil" (humanoid with horns & tail). Chaotic demons have a lot more room for being weird than devils do, and they really should take advantage of that fact! Orcus I never had a quarrel with, though it does seem stupid to have a demon-lord of the undead who hates undead. I mean, whatever, right? But I never liked Fraz-Urb'luu, who seems too bland for a decent demon lord. There's lots of deception-based evil stuff, and he doesn't seem to have any additional points of interest... not to mention that he's related to the utterly annoying "Zagyg Yragerne", the most obvious self-insert EVER... (Spelling his name backward didn't work for Dracula, so why would you think it'd work for Erne(st) Gary Gygax? Even if you scramble a few letters, it's pretty obvious.) |
| Joni-san12-19-07, 08:12 PM | http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6198/everyoneisgayforbridgztxe5.jpg :P |
| Space_Dragon12-19-07, 08:22 PM | http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6198/everyoneisgayforbridgztxe5.jpg :P Godsdammit! Now I'll never be able to take any archfiend seriously again. Ever. |
| The Serge712-19-07, 09:09 PM | That's great! |
| Taeldrin Laesrash12-19-07, 11:10 PM | Another Grazz't hater. His layer is pretty neat, but the demon himself doesn't have that much going for him. He's yet another evil plotter, whose lustful aspects are outdone by at least two other demon lords. The pic is accurate and funny. Fraz'Urb'Luu has some stuff going for him, although I've portrayed him as more of a master of illusions than general deception. I just try to ignore the silly metagame explanation for his capture (Did they really have to put that in?). |
| zook1shoe66612-19-07, 11:23 PM | NICE JOB, Joni-san! |
| Joni-san12-20-07, 06:21 AM | Sauce on Image is DeviantArt, just incase somebody wonders :P |
| Joni-san12-20-07, 10:44 AM | http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/3230/1186152836338ss6.jpg |
| The Serge712-20-07, 11:12 AM | :rofl: |
| JimProfit12-20-07, 12:38 PM | http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6198/everyoneisgayforbridgztxe5.jpg :P That asmodeous part reminds me of death note, how they go back and fourth acting like they're in total control and really they're just winging it. |
| JimProfit12-20-07, 12:43 PM | I got to say Pazuzu, wotc ruined his historical accuracy. Granteed historicaly he was more like lawful evil leaning lawful neutral with his strict sense of what he did for you, and what he expected in return. Even the exscorscist movie painted a better picture of a chaotic evil demon who was spiteful and lived solely to ruin lives and mock the holy. But wotc version sounds like any capitilista. Just a jerk who screws you over in the end. Whoopity ****ing doo. Like it takes a demon-lord to do that. |
| Artifact12-20-07, 01:16 PM | Wanna be cool in D&D? A real bad-ass, father mocker? Be an archdevil or demon lord. The material planes have the drow, with tieflings on the move; the planes meanwhile, have demons and devils, fiendish biker trash of the cosmos. Who needs leather and chains when you've got hellfire and brimstone? Burn, baby, burn! Hence, I hate 'em all. The cool factor of evil incarnate is highly overrated and overused, in my opinion :P. On the other hand, I actually enjoyed the Ghost Rider movie, so go figure ;). |
| Malcadon12-20-07, 02:53 PM | I got to say Pazuzu, wotc ruined his historical accuracy. Granteed historicaly he was more like lawful evil leaning lawful neutral with his strict sense of what he did for you, and what he expected in return. Even the exscorscist movie painted a better picture of a chaotic evil demon who was spiteful and lived solely to ruin lives and mock the holy. But wotc version sounds like any capitilista. Just a jerk who screws you over in the end. Whoopity ****ing doo. Like it takes a demon-lord to do that. Pazuzu kicked ass in the Exorcist? I liked how he was a nasty bastard, and telling the Priest that "Your Mother sucks ****s in Hell!". Like all the other Demon Lords & Arch-Devils, when I use him, I mostly just use the 1st ed fluff (and in his case, the old Babylonian (Mesopotamian) folklore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazuzu)). |
| Naderion12-21-07, 04:44 AM | I'm okay with most of the arch-fiends, but Belial is really a completely silly idea. The Arch-Devil of kinkyness, who looks like he escaped from a fetish-club? That's not evil or depraved, that's just silly. And yes, Frazie just sucks, but you can simply ignore his existance without problem. |
| Space_Dragon12-21-07, 04:26 PM | Belial's appearance and personality quirks were poorly executed. While the idea of Belial as a physical, corporeal oppressor who embodies torture and rape, the BDSM thing is ****ing stupid. Change his wardrobe and get rid of those silly S&M feats from the BOVD, and you're good to go. |
| CryoSilver12-24-07, 02:04 PM | I'm not a big fan of Belial or Levistus. I do like the idea of Jubilex (sp?); he embodies a sort of primal evil; something horrible from the primordial depths of time. Very cool stuff. For my own homebrew setting, I replaced Asmodeous with a Lucifer-character based on Satan in Paradise Lost. |
| Space_Dragon12-24-07, 05:58 PM | For my own homebrew setting, I replaced Asmodeous with a Lucifer-character based on Satan in Paradise Lost. You're in luck; that seems to be pretty much what 4E is doing as well. I'm not sure which Asmodeous I like better; Pact Primeval asmo, or Planescape asmo. They are both pretty kickass in their own ways. |
| sciborg312-24-07, 06:37 PM | Well, 4e Asmo is actually not too much like Lucifer seeing as he didn't just betray his god, he killed this deity. His "ascension" to greater god is in fact somewhat hilarious, given that it's actually a demotion as Hell is now so finite that its the size of a Prime Material planet. If they are going to rework the planes I wish they'd allow for an adventure that allows you to aid another Lord of Nine in usurping Asmo or aiding the Ancient Baatorians in a retaking Hell. It just seems while Demogorgon is put on tenuous footing and even murdered in Savage Tide, there's this expectation that Asmo will always triumph with some back door plan. |
| Artifact12-24-07, 09:30 PM | Well, 4e Asmo is actually not too much like Lucifer seeing as he didn't just betray his god, he killed this deity. His "ascension" to greater god is in fact somewhat hilarious, given that it's actually a demotion as Hell is now so finite that its the size of a Prime Material planet. Wha? Asmodeus killed a deity and ascended to godhood (*again*)? That's the story they're going with for 4e? That's-- lame (for lack of a better word) ;). I could be wrong, since I've enjoyed most of the fluff I've seen related to 4e so far. I'm curious to see the story. This is the first I've heard of it. I'm morbidly curious, since its been revealed that Asmodeus has paladins now. Anyone have a link handy? |
| Keenath12-25-07, 08:32 PM | Wha? Asmodeus killed a deity and ascended to godhood (*again*)? That's the story they're going with for 4e? That's-- lame (for lack of a better word) ;). I could be wrong, since I've enjoyed most of the fluff I've seen related to 4e so far. I'm curious to see the story.I don't see that it's that terrible. Killing a god and stealing his power, but being cursed by his dying breath... that's a pretty powerful backstory, and the fact that Hell is a trap rather than a home helps to explain some aspects of devilish behavior -- why they need souls so much, why they let themselves be summoned so easily by mortals, and so on. Anyway, it's a lot more interesting (IMO) than "the serpent crashed down out of who-knows-where and formed hell around it, and it's maybe Asmo and maybe not and ...." I mean, that's fine and all, but so much of it is written as a sort of non-story, "make up whatever works for you". Anyway, if he's gonna have the powers of a god, he might as well be one for real. This is the first I've heard of it. I'm morbidly curious, since its been revealed that Asmodeus has paladins now.Just to be clear, EVERY god has Pallys. A paladin is no longer a "lawful good" hero, but rather a hero devoted to a god, but who is different from a cleric. (Defender versus Leader in terms of role -- a paladin has powerful smite abilities that help him interfere with enemies at melee range and make it hard for them to get around him, while a cleric has spells that give him ranged combat ability, and stronger healing powers.) |
| Taeldrin Laesrash12-25-07, 08:50 PM | I don't see that it's that terrible. Killing a god and stealing his power, but being cursed by his dying breath... that's a pretty powerful backstory, and the fact that Hell is a trap rather than a home helps to explain some aspects of devilish behavior -- why they need souls so much, why they let themselves be summoned so easily by mortals, and so on. It restricts us from forming our own ideas about the cosmology by shoehorning the story into a pale imitation of Christian theology. Not really good or necessary; people who don't use devils extensively don't care about their origin, and people who really do will have their own ideas not allowed by the attachment of flavor to numbers. |
| Doom_Linnorm12-26-07, 03:16 AM | Kostichie (or however you spell it): The "baby that got hit to many times with ugly stick and injected with growth hormone" look doesn't help and he is made redundant by Baphomet and Thrym. Demogorgon: Looks to silly to be taken seriously, I tried it once, describing him to players without them bursting out laughing and well..... EPIC FAIL. Also Dagon does his job better. Melcanthet: So bland that I actually replaced her with my own creation Dalathia, Demon Princess of Sorcery and a whole new Demon Subtype to go with her. Levistus: Has to much of the following: Humanity, Emo-ness, Retardation and Obviousness. Needs to be replaced by a more monstrous devil to create some contrast. Mammon: To much of a whiny suck-up and Geryon already owns that look. Still has his uses though. Also I actually like Fraz, so he doesn't have friends... who cares he uses Demon Princes as a flippin' weapon! I also love Graz'zt but you have to hammer his Chaotic nature to make it work in a setting admittedly. |
| Naderion12-26-07, 08:27 AM | I also love Graz'zt but you have to hammer his Chaotic nature to make it work in a setting admittedly. True, Graz'zt is some amount of work, but that makes him my most favorite fiend. He doesn't bite off heads when he feels like and is able to carry through with a well made plan. He's just emotional, spontaneous, and opportunistic, but not controlled by his drive to destroy. |