Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Friendlyfish 05-16-07, 05:20 PM	This is a quite weird situation. Playing a cleric of a demigod, and then liberally sprinkling levels, artifacts and epic spells among the capabilities of the priest, this priest could pretty much destroy his demigod as statted out in Deities and Demigods. What does this mean, metaphysically? Is this D&D Zen? Does the cleric have an existential duty to beat up his God, just because his God is now weaker than he himself, and thus the cleric must be the demigod's God instead?
Tyberian 05-16-07, 05:29 PM	You have left out an important point. If the character had not been working toward the demi-god's ends he would have lost his clerical abilities and never achieved such power. People look toward and try to emulate heroes, so if the character had such a long and distingushed career the number of copiers and emulators probably would have pushed the demi-god into becoming a lesser god, and thus much more powerful.
Kursk 05-16-07, 05:40 PM	This is a quite weird situation. Playing a cleric of a demigod, and then liberally sprinkling levels, artifacts and epic spells among the capabilities of the priest, this priest could pretty much destroy his demigod as statted out in Deities and Demigods. What does this mean, metaphysically? Is this D&D Zen? Does the cleric have an existential duty to beat up his God, just because his God is now weaker than he himself, and thus the cleric must be the demigod's God instead? How can he do that without spells or cleric abilities?
Tyberian 05-16-07, 05:53 PM	How can he do that without spells or cleric abilities? I cannot recall which source this comes from, perhaps Deities and demigods, but spells are granted to the faithful without a deities knowledge or action. I'm not certain whether a serious transgression causes you to no longer be able to cast spells at all or merely be no longer able to receive them. If you have the heretic of faith feat from the Forgotten Realms then you can keep your spellcasting capabilities regardless of how you transgress as long as you remain within 2 steps in alignment. This does not prevent the deity from taking other actions against you. i guess what I am saying is that you very well may be able to continue receiving spells and casting them.
Kursk 05-16-07, 06:12 PM	I cannot recall which source this comes from, perhaps Deities and demigods, but spells are granted to the faithful without a deities knowledge or action. I'm not certain whether a serious transgression causes you to no longer be able to cast spells at all or merely be no longer able to receive them. If you have the heretic of faith feat from the Forgotten Realms then you can keep your spellcasting capabilities regardless of how you transgress as long as you remain within 2 steps in alignment. This does not prevent the deity from taking other actions against you. i guess what I am saying is that you very well may be able to continue receiving spells and casting them. Reread the OPs post, "Playing a cleric of a demigod..."
Shemeska the Marauder 05-16-07, 06:38 PM	If a cleric becomes -that- powerful, at some point it's likely that they'd become a proxy of sorts, acting as something of a living conduit for their gods power. At that point they're in a sort of symbiotic situation with the god directly empowering them to act in their name, and the PC's own actions empowering the deity so the status quo should hold steady. However if a cleric become powerful enough to in theory become godlike themselves or challange their gods power and potentially draw worship away from the god, the deity would be likely to simply absorb them into themselves, and gain the power of other mortals worshipping that priest of theirs as an aspect of themselves.
El_Machinae 05-16-07, 06:43 PM	Well, at those levels, the character would probably start moving to being conduits of alignment.
Eric888 05-16-07, 07:38 PM	Being able to beat a god in mortal combat doesn't really meen anything important as far as divinity goes. The cleric and god may see their relationship more as a partnership then abject servitude, but that's about it. Mortals transcend the power of gods all the time, and they usually pull it off in about 1% of the god's lifetime. Fear of death, ability to learn, free will... whatever the reason mortals have an edge, they do. That's why gods like recruiting them so much.
Eric888 05-16-07, 08:01 PM	As for the issue of whether or not the cleric would retain his powers is really more of a DM call. Some DMs like the whole 'gods walk the earth' angle where clerics are under constant scruitny, and gods have toal control over their temples and clergy. Other DMs, prefer more mystery to the gods influence and say that they have little control over their cleric's power, openning the door to rampant church coruption and even atheism. So it really depends.
Friendlyfish 05-16-07, 08:12 PM	To me, it's odd that the deity is "providing" a level of power that is actually in excess of the deity's own power. I'm not saying this cleric would go immediately and start whooping up on his Boss, but rather that it's paradoxical for the deity to be providing the power of an entity more powerful than itself. Therefore, either the clerics power must be capped by the deity's own power, or the deity is a gateway to power even greater than its own, and that is what clerics are drawing from when they're getting magic/power.
Lina_Inverse 05-16-07, 11:07 PM	You stop worshiping the middleman and start worshiping what the deity represents. Or you ignore it, sure your stronger than your god but he's still divine and closer to that ideal than you.
ElberethSilverleaf 05-17-07, 01:37 AM	The simplist way to remedy this is to elevate the character to demigod or true divine status and forcibly retire him as he is now a god/demigod. Reroll and have fun creating a brand new character.......
Lina_Inverse 05-17-07, 02:20 AM	and forcibly retire him as he is now a god/demigod. Wow you are an ******* aren't you.
ff6shadow 05-17-07, 03:31 AM	First, the simple fact of having such a powerful servant would serve to elevate the Demigod to new heights of power. Second, Deities and Demigods doesn't represent the advantages of having epic mateiral available. You need to rewrite the god to take advantage of them, giving the god at bare minimum, epic spellcasting.
El_Machinae 05-17-07, 11:17 AM	To me, it's odd that the deity is "providing" a level of power that is actually in excess of the deity's own power. Maybe analagous to a corporation paying its CEO more than the corporation earns?
Lazigothi 05-17-07, 11:40 AM	I would agree with the thought that the overall impact of a cleric's service on the material plane would likewise effect the god being served. I would assume a successful and powerful cleric would provide more followers to the faith, and I'd imagine the god would increase in power and not remain static. I would think the reverse would be true should clerics of a god become abysmal failures, having the gods fade from power. As far as "in theory," having a mortal cleric surpass the god they serve, I think the duty depends on the faith and the nature of the cleric. In a might-makes-right, evil, or chaotic faith, I'd imagine it might be the ultimate goal of a powerful cleric to replace a weak god. That god no longer being fit or strong, the new ursurper provides a necessary role in becoming a new example of strength and power. Eventually, somone down the road should usurp the usurper. In a Lawful or good faith, I would imagine that the cleric who surpasses the god, instead of having to duke it out, becomes sponsored to an elevated status (assuming the god the cleric served remained static during the length of the cleric's tour de force) where the cleric uses the old god as an underling in divine rank. If it's been a good, amicable relationship, I'd imagine there'd be no hard feelings.
El_Machinae 05-18-07, 07:45 AM	Maybe the god become better at channelling even more power, but only with regards to that specific servant. It would give the god a taste of the power that it could eventually have if it continued to grow.
Elana 05-18-07, 11:50 AM	I don't quite see the actual problem. A sergeant who can beat up a general in single combat, would still obey orders. And if he ever plans to fight his god he might have a) trouble finding him. (deities aren't stupid enough to sit around when enemies come to kill them) b) Find out that while gods don't grant the spellcasting ability of their clerics, they do have the power to block it. And if the demi god in question is part of a pantheon, the character might find himself in a position where he would have to face every god of that pantheon at once. (Important safety tip, gods have friends too)
Templar_Prime 05-18-07, 02:26 PM	My group has a simple rule when it comes to fighting gods: you try without MAJOR backing (ie another god), you die. "I attack!" "You're dead. New character please." "But look at the stats! I have more-" "It's a god. You die. New character."
stunspore 05-18-07, 03:32 PM	God absorbs cleric when cleric dies and become as powerful? Or automatically cleric is absorbed or becomes an avatar, etc?
Salla 05-18-07, 05:37 PM	This is when you don't bother giving deities stats and just say 'it's a god, you're a mortal, you lose'. :)
Mindolin 05-18-07, 06:09 PM	My group has a seemingly unique way of looking at it. Once the character surpasses the deity, they are not required to find a new one. The god continues to provide the magic for the cleric, but now it is pretty much the cleric running a protection racket for the weaker of the gods.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 05-18-07, 06:46 PM	All quotes are from d20srd.com, unless it is highlighted in red. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm First, lets creates some facts for this arguement. 1. Call it a Demi-god with a rank of 2. It nets a +2 to everything, ac, attacks, skill checks, saves, etc. And maximized HP per HD. (so it has twice as much hp as the cleric at the same HD level) 2. Most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well. These additional character levels beyond an effective character level of 20th follow the rules for epic levels. The deity is weak and only a mere demi-god, 50 levels sounds fair to me. So far it has a +15 epic bonus to BAB & saves, access to Epic items which wealth by level examples stop in the DMG at 13,600,000gp at level 40, and access to Epic spellcasting. How about some example epic magic items? Great Reflection: Any time its bearer of this shield is targeted with a spell, it automatically reflects the spell back at the caster (as the spell turning spell). The wearer can lower or raise this effect as a free action (thus allowing beneficial spells in as desired). Caster Level: 25th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, spell turning; Market Price: +10 bonus. Negating: Immediately after the wearer of this armor is hit with a magic weapon, the armor casts greater dispelling on the weapon. (In the case of projectile weapons, the armor casts greater dispelling on the weapon that fired the projectile if it is in range. If it is out of range, the armor does nothing.) No weapon can be affected by the armor more than once per day (regardless of the success of the dispel check). Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, greater dispelling; Market Price: +5 bonus. 3. A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form. ... A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage. ... A deity is immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). ... Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold, and acid, even if the attacker is a deity of higher divine rank. ... Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration. ... A deity has fire resistance of 5 + its divine rank. ... A deity has spell resistance of 32 + its divine rank. ... any gas effect (they don't breath), DR 10/epic. 4. A deity of rank 1 or higher who has levels in a divine spellcasting class can spontaneously cast any spell it can grant. ... A deity of rank 1 or higher can use any domain power it can grant a number of times per day equal to its divine rank. ... A deity can use any domain spell it can grant as a spell-like ability at will. A deity automatically grants spells and domain powers to mortal divine spellcasters who pray to it. Most deities can grant spells from the cleric spell list, the ranger spell list, and from three or more domains. Deities with levels in the druid class can grant spells from the druid spell list, and deities with paladin levels can grant spells from the paladin spell list. A deity can withhold spells from any particular mortal as a free action; once a spell has been granted, it remains in the mortal’s mind until expended. You planning on taking me on Mr. follower? No more spells, ever! Better use the ones you have left wisely. If the deity using a simple skirmish tactics at some point the cleric has nothing to cast and dies. 5. When performing an action within its portfolio, a deity can perform any action as a free action, as long as the check DC is equal to or less than the number on the table below. The number of free actions a deity can perform each round is also determined by the deity’s divine rank. Up to DC 15, and two actions. 6. The deity also has salient divine abilities, try looking up Alter Reality some time. I'll give some of Alter Reality's highlights. Standerd action to cast any spell of 9th level or lower without a material or XP component. The deity can also tack on any number of metamagic feats without any limit beyond the metamagic feat cannot be epic. sure it has to "rest" one round per spell level change by the metamagic feats, but it can skip the nightstick argument and all those domain & feat trick to persist any nonepic spell printed in in book. The deity can render a magical or supernatural effect permanent out of bordom too, but that is beside the point. Putting it together. Welcome to epic, there are two CRs. Can & Can't. If you dont have 50HD+ the deity is a Can't and the cleric loses by default. If the cleric is 50ish, then its still not close to being even. Both the cleric and deity whould have some super cool epic items that make them almost invicible to everything, both have epic casting, both can have their own planes. But the the fact remains that the deity can just stop granting spells. Without spells the cleric is a 3/4 BAB class with two good saves, and in the world of epic, lack of epic spellcasting vs. something with is falls into the Can't CR. If the cleric could get around those two free actions (like greater teleport & planes shift for a quick escape)per round on the clerics turn, and persisted buffs of every spell ever printed, with a single battle with the cleric's remaining spell slots then there whould be no real point to even trying. The cleric whould already have followers and a divine rank at that point. Since he/she/it is a deity, they are not exactly a cleric anymore now are they?
DwarfPcfan 05-18-07, 06:46 PM	My group has a simple rule when it comes to fighting gods: you try without MAJOR backing (ie another god), you die. "I attack!" "You're dead. New character please." "But look at the stats! I have more-" "It's a god. You die. New character." That's how I run any deity in my games from the lowliest demi-god to the mightiest powers. Placed simply God's aren't opponents to beat, they are the embodiement of the concepts of the multiverse. As long as the concept exist in the multiverse, the god exists. That's what being beyong mortality, existing in such a state as being incapable of being defined by concepts of stats, flesh , blood, bone God's aren't uber-powerful enemies, they are metaphysical entities -You can't beat Boccob because he's the god of magic, he's the incarnation of magic itself. As long as magic exists, Boccob exists, yeah good luck eliminating magic from the multi-verse... -You can't beat Osiris because Osiris is the incarnation of the just jugement after death and the protector of the offering Fields. As long as the concept exists, he'll exists. Want to know how to Run Gods, read Sandman, Lucifer, The satanic verses Hercules is'nt just a level 40+ fighting class character, He's an ascended mortal that achieved such a state of perfection in embodying the concept of unyielding courage, battle mastery and talent that he left the mortal shell and became divine. Your cleric is'nt just his personal spell casting enforcer, he's a conduit to speak his concepts at large. fighting divine battles are a clash of concepts. Victory is the victory of one concept over the other. an example would be the battle between the Archangel Micheal and Lucifer. Lucifer lost because he was just one uber-powered Angel with a serious Oedipian complex. He lost because he tried to fight existence (in biblical terms of course). Micheal came and mopped the floor with his ass because he was acting in the name of a being embodying the concept of he who is everything (in biblical terms of course) Francky I can't imagine why this issue keeps popping up on these forums...
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 05-18-07, 06:57 PM	Francky I can't imagine why this issue keeps popping up on these forums... Aye. In a show of hands, how many people have played a charecter all the way up to 50? Yeah, I thought so.
Damior 05-18-07, 07:51 PM	Not an actual game, but check out the Kredes Tavern thread, there almost all of the characters are lvl 40+, one of them is a deity, and another seems close to becoming one. And one of the more epic of epic characters in there brought up this very point: He could easily kill his deity in the surprise round, but does not, because he is a god, and thus deserves respect, especially from his powerful followers
Joni-san 05-18-07, 08:40 PM	Francky I can't imagine why this issue keeps popping up on these forums... Because in some mythologies mortals can, and do, defeat gods.
sciborg2 05-19-07, 12:02 AM	Wow you are an ******* aren't you. :rolleyes:
JulesCARV 05-19-07, 12:24 AM	Why would you want to beat up your god? You love your god. Do you people try to beat up your significant others, parents, and/or friends if you figure out that you're stronger than they are? I believe that a cleric's power primarily comes from the cleric's own magical ability, not unlike a wizard, bard, or the like, but the deity or force granting the spells grants a crucial catalyst, which is critical to spellcasting but not the main power of the spellcasting. It's as if the cleric provides the gasoline, but the deity provides the spark plug -- the gasoline supplies the overwhelming majority of the energy, but the whole thing doesn't work without a spark plug, which is why clerics need something that, say, rangers, sorcerers, and wizards don't. This explains why 1) a level 1 cleric can't cast raise dead on the deity's recently assassinated high priest, even though the deity would approve, and would like to see such a spell cast, 2) a cleric can command more magical power overall than his deity, if the deity is a hero-deity or the like 3) clerics needn't worry that they're sucking away their deity's power when they cast spells and thus become reluctant to use their powers, and 4) why deities can, in spite of all of that, strip their clerics of spellcasting abilities if the cleric transgresses the deity's sensibilities.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 05-19-07, 03:37 AM	Not an actual game, but check out the Kredes Tavern thread, there almost all of the characters are lvl 40+, one of them is a deity, and another seems close to becoming one. And one of the more epic of epic characters in there brought up this very point: He could easily kill his deity in the surprise round, but does not, because he is a god, and thus deserves respect, especially from his powerful followers By brining in the idea of a surpise round you provoke thoughts of this killer-of-gods using sneak attack. Which my 9th level wizard is immune to, I hope within those 40 levels they woundered how great it whould be to invest in a way to render an entire class worthless against them. Still, as you pointed out, its not really a game. If I had a link I'd check it out, untill then how about I assume its a play by post. And in play by posts, it dont matter who you are, your as powerful as the other players let you be. Because in some mythologies mortals can, and do, defeat gods. Yes, mythologies of people killing gods, the lack of proof to those legends says the cleric dies. :P *** Think about it, 50 is not just another number. Its 50. 33~35 CR 20 creatures fighting you at once is a EL 50 encounter. 20 is not "less than half of 50", its thirty-four times more powerful than 20. You still think 50 is "just another number"? Need more out of the box thinking to help out? How about a glance at the XP system? On paper you need 190,000 XP to become level 20. On the same paper you need 1,265,000 XP to be level 50. However, due to the 20% loss of XP rewards in epic rules you have to earn 1,480,000 XP to really be level 50. Keep in mind you gain no XP for killing stuff 8 levels below you. And if you could find CR 45 creatures so easy you actully gain levels, how the hell was your home world not eaten by something with more teeth than D&D has drow fans before? Did I mention the DMG says you lose XP and levels if you don't practice and keep in shape? Every week you don't turn and destory the first 27 layers of the abyss you risk losing XP. Keep up the good work there Mr. 87 year old cleric thats level 28 and smiting Balors without gaining XP for doing it. I don't read up on alot of D&D lore, but isn't Orcus a spell granting demon without a single divine rank? He has lived for thousands of years and waged countless battles in a never ending war in the bottem of the abyss, and he still has yet to assend. In fact, the mm4 stats him out as a CR 23 or so encounter. Truly the myth of a cleric killing his deity stems from the ignorance of the deity's might in the first place more than anything else. @ sciborg2, not sure who you quoted, or who it was directed to. Thse area realistic views using rules and commen sense. If they come across harsh then I only say "oops" & "all well" to that. Cleric don't stand a chance and I felt like chiming in for once. Only thing that amkes mine different form the rest is I looked at the rules before I said "zomg, the cleric dont stand a cahnce, diets are the roxxers."
Shemeska the Marauder 05-19-07, 03:56 AM	I don't read up on alot of D&D lore, but isn't Orcus a spell granting demon without a single divine rank? He has lived for thousands of years and waged countless battles in a never ending war in the bottem of the abyss, and he still has yet to assend. Orcus not having formal divine rank is a 3e retcon. 3e stripped all archfiends of any formal deific status (those who had possessed it previously, including Orcus, Demogorgon, Baphomet, etc). Of course even those without deific status were known to have held their own/brutalized/killed gods on their home planes, so divine rank is really an aside to their status as archfiends at least when we're looking at the lower planes as opposed to elsewhere. 3e has been stuck with that initial retcon but since then we've seemingly stabilized at a point of 'archfiends aren't gods, not really, but they might as well be because they can grant worshippers clerical spells and they can apparently hold their own versus gods on their own planes, so the lack of divine rank is really superfluous for most purposes'.
sebastienurbanek 05-19-07, 08:16 AM	Kill a god is a very stupid idea. Don't you know that gods know who thinks of them, utters their names, (see REMOTE SENSING p28 from deities & demi-gods). If a cleric want to kill a god, his deity knows this fact and suppres spells to his follower, cast down in hell.. See salient divine abilities, even characters level 1000 can be killed by gods with : DIVINE BLAST, ANNIHILATING STRIKE (who can beat the DC?), LIFE AND DEATH ( gods can kill any mortals even level 1000). To me epic levels are doors to become gods (levels 30-40 but no more; gods are level 30-40 with for certain 20 HD Outsiders) and to be retired from play (like GYGAX in his time like player or DM); it's ludicrous to play at infinite levels. I can't imagine beginning level 1 and play indefinitly; since 1986 the more graduated level I've seen it's level 23 for my whole bands of characters. After we were boring and did new characters level 1.
Astron the Wizard 05-19-07, 10:41 AM	Well, it seems like to me that. let's say your character became the demi-god's minion aty lvl. 1. The demi-god was lvl. 30-something. While the player gains lvls, and eventually is lvl. 40-something, do you think the demi-god was just sitting there too? He would have been gaining levels at the same time as the player.
sciborg2 05-19-07, 12:35 PM	sciborg2, not sure who you quoted, or who it was directed to My only point is that throwing out cursewords seems more than a little silly for an argument about D&D. Even then it wasn't meant to overly malicious. :)
LordKandis 05-19-07, 02:22 PM	Well, it seems like to me that. let's say your character became the demi-god's minion aty lvl. 1. The demi-god was lvl. 30-something. While the player gains lvls, and eventually is lvl. 40-something, do you think the demi-god was just sitting there too? He would have been gaining levels at the same time as the player. However, there'd be far less of a gap in the respective power levels once the player hits 40th level. It takes more XP to go from 30th level to 40th level than it does to go from 1st level to 20th level. In fact, for a 30th level deity with a 1st level follower, the follower could be assumed to have reached 26th level in the same amount of time it would take the deity to gain a mere 10 levels, if they both receive XP at the same rate. And given that deities don't tend to advance very quickly, if one continues a campaign into Epic, it is very possible that the character will reach a point where they are stronger than their deity.
ElberethSilverleaf 05-19-07, 04:29 PM	My only point is that throwing out cursewords seems more than a little silly for an argument about D&D. Even then it wasn't meant to overly malicious. :) I think he was referring to an immature comment by Lina_Inverse regarding my perfectly sane suggestion that the DM make the player retire the UBER character. The character is now godlike in status, deserves to be elevated to some sort of saintly or semi-divine status and retired. It is a time honored method in RPG's to retire ultra-powerful characters and have fun creating a new hero.
FatMonkey13 05-20-07, 10:30 PM	as statted out in Deities and Demigods. Well you could add levels to the deity. Also did you take into account the forces the Deity can call on such as other followers, other gods, and outsiders (angles/devils/slaad).
guru7892 05-21-07, 01:21 AM	This is a quite weird situation. Playing a cleric of a demigod, and then liberally sprinkling levels, artifacts and epic spells among the capabilities of the priest, this priest could pretty much destroy his demigod as statted out in Deities and Demigods. What does this mean, metaphysically? Is this D&D Zen? Does the cleric have an existential duty to beat up his God, just because his God is now weaker than he himself, and thus the cleric must be the demigod's God instead? if herculese met ghandi, herculese would still be the student. being more powerful than a god means nothing because you are trying to master their doctrine of how to act and behave. you are also attempting to do their work as a physical being so nothing really 'happens'.
sciborg2 05-21-07, 10:58 PM	If a god is a being that has certain abilities and powers that command worship, then a cleric can surpass it like a child suprassing a parent. Perhaps the cleric takes the god's place, and the god ascends to the next stage of existence. Perhaps the cleric, as a follower of such immense power, actually boosts the power of the god itself to new heights.
Will_DM_for_Pizza 05-22-07, 03:58 PM	What I do in terms of Gods and Deities is that the Aspect of a Deity is only a physical manifestation of the deity and not the deity itself (therefore Aspects are much weaker). Also All deities are given Immortality as a Speacial Feature (They can't drop below 1 HP for ANY reason whatsoever), seeing as how thier gods I think they deserve it. So if you want to keep a player from killing off a god just do that and they can't kill that god unless you decide that it would be an interesting story twist to have them slay that god (so give them an item with Godslayer).