What happened to Geryon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What happened to Geryon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CuttinCurt
05-30-07, 01:53 AM I was reading through my Fiendish CodexII and found that Geryon's essence had been used to give rise to a new Arch Devil Named Glyssa or something like that. But it gave no reason as to what had happened to him.

Can anyone point me to what piece of D&D material states what happened to this arch devil? I would appreciate it.

Thanks, CC
sciborg2
05-30-07, 02:12 AM Glyxsa is Asmo's daughter, and apparently the Hag Countess (Geryon's consort iirc) was put in Geryon's place for many years (centuries? millennia?) only to be destroyed, merged with the layer, so that Glysxa could take her place.

Geryon became a vestige, after being deposed by Asmodeus for being...wait for it...too loyal.

At least, that's how I remember it.
Steely_Dan
05-30-07, 04:40 AM Last I heard old Geryee was working as rough trade on Hollywood and Vine.
Naderion
05-30-07, 07:59 AM Geryon does appear in Tome of Magic as one of the Vestiges.
Light_Colonel
05-30-07, 08:20 AM Geryon was indeed deposed for being too loyal.

IIRC...

The Archdukes of Hell all plotted to overthrow Asmodeus. Only Geryon remained loyal to him and warned him of the plot.

Once the attempted coup failed, Asmodeus punished Geryon rather than the plotters.
ripvanwormer
05-30-07, 08:21 AM Can anyone point me to what piece of D&D material states what happened to this arch devil? I would appreciate it.

There are three main sources:

A Paladin in Hell, which is a 2nd edition adventure by Monte Cook. Geryon is the main villain of that; he's been deposed for millennia and the adventure is about him trying to regain his throne.

The Book of Vile Darkness Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030117a), which gives 3rd edition stats and background for the exiled Geryon.

Tome of Magic, which made Geryon into a vestige. A waste of an interesting character, in my opinion.
CuttinCurt
05-30-07, 10:15 AM I do appreciate that. I will look up those sources. Thanks for the info. I to agree that Geryon was quite a good arch duke of hell, one of the ones I distinctly remember for the 2nd edition days, and it is to bad he is nothing now.

oh well.

I have the tome of magic so I will look up the vestiges.

CC
RealSorceror
05-30-07, 04:18 PM Geryon was indeed deposed for being too loyal.

IIRC...

The Archdukes of Hell all plotted to overthrow Asmodeus. Only Geryon remained loyal to him and warned him of the plot.

Once the attempted coup failed, Asmodeus punished Geryon rather than the plotters.
Nobody likes a butt-kisser. Especially not Asmo. ;)
Arbourean
05-30-07, 08:08 PM Every devil from the lowliest lemure to the mightiest archduke desires to depose their betters and take their place. It's ambition, Geryon obviously lacked it and thus was not worthy of being a Lord of the Nine.
Deper
05-30-07, 08:20 PM Every devil from the lowliest lemure to the mightiest archduke desires to depose their betters and take their place. It's ambition, Geryon obviously lacked it and thus was not worthy of being a Lord of the Nine.

Bingo.

It has also been suggested that Greyon's energy was taken in order to help heal Asmodeous's wounds, or to power the re-shaping of his daughter's layer.
sciborg2
05-31-07, 02:36 AM Tome of Magic, which made Geryon into a vestige. A waste of an interesting character, in my opinion.

To me, this is when the story got good...
Phantos
05-31-07, 06:08 PM It appears as if Loyalty has little place in a Lawful Evil pecking order. I suppose they consider loyalty to be a good-aligned trait, or that the devils care more for evil than they do for law. Weird.

Geryon definitely seems like a neat character. As a vestige, well, it seems like something that may be brought up some day as part of the Lord of the Nine's fall.
ArcTan
05-31-07, 06:19 PM There are three main sources:

A Paladin in Hell, which is a 2nd edition adventure by Monte Cook. Geryon is the main villain of that; he's been deposed for millennia and the adventure is about him trying to regain his throne.

The Book of Vile Darkness Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030117a), which gives 3rd edition stats and background for the exiled Geryon.

Tome of Magic, which made Geryon into a vestige. A waste of an interesting character, in my opinion.

Enh, Geryon-vestige is my favorite version of him. Vestiges are only interesting if they come from interesting characters.

And the explanation that Asmodeus perversely punished him precisely for being too loyal -- and that the price for ultimate loyalty in Baator is utter annihilation -- seems a lot more interesting than the A Paladin in Hell plot, where he just becomes another exiled archdevil trying to get his place back.
ArcTan
05-31-07, 06:24 PM It appears as if Loyalty has little place in a Lawful Evil pecking order. I suppose they consider loyalty to be a good-aligned trait, or that the devils care more for evil than they do for law. Weird.

Not really. It's just that in an LE universe, having an individual identity is an act of rebellion. Superiors want nothing more from their subordinates but to absorb them, take them entirely into themselves, remove all freedom or choice or identity, to *consume*. In an LE world, mastery over someone never entails respect for someone -- nobody has any "rights".

Thus, the only way to *not* be absorbed and eaten by an LE overlord is to have some free will and rebellion against them. The only way for rebellion to manifest in an LE universe is as a sense that your superior is inferior to you, that his place is unwarranted, and that you should supplant him. Thus an LE universe is about a hierarchy constantly focused on climbing up the ranks.

Hence the Reckoning. Asmodeus *has* to allow the Reckoning to happen if he's going to have subordinates at all, because the only reason they see to be his subordinates is to someday replace him.

True loyalty in Hell means not existing at all -- you are such an instrument of your master that the dividing line between you and your master is nonexistent. It seems only Geryon achieved that level of loyalty, and for that loyalty ceased to exist in the most final way possible (which is how you become a vestige).

To me, that's the *interesting* part of the story.

Geryon definitely seems like a neat character. As a vestige, well, it seems like something that may be brought up some day as part of the Lord of the Nine's fall.

Bah, the Lords of the Nine will never fall. Not permanently, anyway, or not before the end of the multiverse.
PunkRockBard
05-31-07, 06:32 PM i dunno....part of me agrees with Rip.

i do think that the whole vestige concept is cool.

That being said...it can also be a bit limiting to that character.

Geryon is now quite limited in character capacity.
ArcTan
05-31-07, 06:56 PM i dunno....part of me agrees with Rip.

i do think that the whole vestige concept is cool.

That being said...it can also be a bit limiting to that character.

Geryon is now quite limited in character capacity.

Vestiges aren't characters. Geryon is no longer a character now, as such.

Which I actually think is hella cool. Vestiges are contradictions -- nonexistent but existent, without any will of their own but having an influence through the random will of others who bind them, destroyed but eternal.

They *come* from contradictions, from the memory of things that were destroyed when they shouldn't've been or couldn't've been or never should've existed in the first place. Tenebrous was a contradiction -- he was Orcus and not Orcus, dead and alive, wanted to rule everything while reducing everything to nothing. Now he's a vestige.

Same with Geryon -- "rewarded" for the ultimate loyalty with the ultimate betrayal, which was, at the same time, a total confirmation of said loyalty. Geryon's loyalty to Asmodeus was a statement that Asmodeus was supreme, that no freedom from Asmodeus was possible. For a being like Asmodeus, to lack any freedom from him is to not exist at all, to be subsumed into him. Geryon's betrayal was his vindication. Geryon's death was the culmination of his life. Geryon was punished and rewarded and still yet punished all at the same time -- gave everything up for something worthless because it was worthless.

Geryon's death was a paradox, and thus Geryon is a vestige.
Deper
05-31-07, 07:29 PM Vestiges are contridictions, but they don't necessarily arise from contridictions. They appear when a powerful soul or entity dies but is too powerful to simply stay dead or move on to the afterlife (or fade away in some cases).

Tenebrous is a case where divinity simply doesn't die easily, especially for something as power and grasping as the desires of Tenebrous (to be alive and a god as Orcus). Greyon is a case where his entire world fell apart because he was too loyal to his master, but where his "soul" had nowhere to go.
PunkRockBard
05-31-07, 07:54 PM Yes. Which goes back to me still thinking that, while a cool concept, this def. limits the role of Geryon hence forward.
ArcTan
05-31-07, 07:56 PM Vestiges are contridictions, but they don't necessarily arise from contridictions. They appear when a powerful soul or entity dies but is too powerful to simply stay dead or move on to the afterlife (or fade away in some cases).

...Which is a contradiction. He's too powerful to die, but he's dead. Chupoclops is a case in point.

Tenebrous is a case where divinity simply doesn't die easily, especially for something as power and grasping as the desires of Tenebrous (to be alive and a god as Orcus). Greyon is a case where his entire world fell apart because he was too loyal to his master, but where his "soul" had nowhere to go.

Well, sure. They both break the normal rules, though.

I mean, Tenebrous wasn't just a god who died. Gods who die just die, and end up as corpses on the Astral Plane. Sometimes, once in a long while, they're reborn, sometimes in new forms. They certainly don't all become vestiges. And the thing is that Tenebrous isn't "alive" because he wants to be Orcus. The being that wanted to be Orcus succeeded, and became Orcus again, and is now Orcus. Tenebrous is something left over, that *didn't* share in the desire to return to life, that couldn't therefore be included in it.

Similarly, Geryon isn't just a case of an archfiend being killed. Archfiends that are killed don't automatically become vestiges. (Archfiends that are killed normally don't have souls either -- like all Outsiders, they *are* souls and are merely gone when destroyed on their home plane.) It only happened to Geryon because, as you say, his entire world fell apart, his existence was founded on a contradiction.
Deper
05-31-07, 08:33 PM There are others that aren't contridictions. Balam, Aym, Buer, Dahlver-Nar, Dantalin, Eurynome, Ipos,Savnok, Halphax, Lajire, Orthos, etc. You don't have to die in contridiction or be a contratidion to become a vestige. Savnok, for example, became one because he was killed and his body (and assumedly his soul) tossed to wherever the Vestiges come from.
ArcTan
05-31-07, 10:31 PM There are others that aren't contridictions. Balam, Aym, Buer, Dahlver-Nar, Dantalin, Eurynome, Ipos,Savnok, Halphax, Lajire, Orthos, etc. You don't have to die in contridiction or be a contratidion to become a vestige. Savnok, for example, became one because he was killed and his body (and assumedly his soul) tossed to wherever the Vestiges come from.

Well, sure, it's a general theme, not a set-in-stone rule.

The overall theme of contradiction still peeks through with the idea of being "too powerful" to die and becoming a vestige. (Yes, everyone who remembers the Empire Dantalion once ruled is dead... but can something that huge *really* be forgotten? Etc.)
Deper
05-31-07, 10:59 PM Well, sure, it's a general theme, not a set-in-stone rule.

The overall theme of contradiction still peeks through with the idea of being "too powerful" to die and becoming a vestige. (Yes, everyone who remembers the Empire Dantalion once ruled is dead... but can something that huge *really* be forgotten? Etc.)

True, but in that case it's a divine curse that created the vestige.
Thegans
06-10-07, 11:33 PM Glyxsa is Asmo's daughter, and apparently the Hag Countess (Geryon's consort iirc) was put in Geryon's place for many years (centuries? millennia?) only to be destroyed, merged with the layer, so that Glysxa could take her place.

Geryon became a vestige, after being deposed by Asmodeus for being...wait for it...too loyal.

At least, that's how I remember it.

Geryon was indeed deposed for being too loyal.

IIRC...

The Archdukes of Hell all plotted to overthrow Asmodeus. Only Geryon remained loyal to him and warned him of the plot.

Once the attempted coup failed, Asmodeus punished Geryon rather than the plotters.

Every devil from the lowliest lemure to the mightiest archduke desires to depose their betters and take their place. It's ambition, Geryon obviously lacked it and thus was not worthy of being a Lord of the Nine.

Actually the Hag Countess was the consort of Moloch. Geryon was replaced by Levistus, the murderer of Asmodeous consort.

Still if you think about how Baator works its entirely possbile that Geryon was not actually punished.

The Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells mentions that devils embrace the process of promotion as the ultimate triumph of law and hierarchy over mere individuality.

Also it mentions that Geryon's energy was used to promote Glasya, who apparently became much more powerful once she became the Achduchess of Malbolge.

If I had to guess I would say that the position of a Lord of the Nine was based on its layer. Thus making Glasya have a higher rank than Levistus and the one Geryon had. Even if this is not the case the daughter of the Overlord of Hell would definately still have a higher position than the Lord of Stygia.

According to theory one that says that Lord of the Nine with a higher number have a higher rank Geryon was techncially given a promotion because his souls is part of Glasya. According to theory two that says that Glasya has a higher position because she is Asmodeous daughter, Geryon was technically given a promotion because his soul is part of Glasya.
sooperspook
06-11-07, 12:27 AM According to theory one that says that Lord of the Nine with a higher number have a higher rank Geryon was techncially given a promotion because his souls is part of Glasya. According to theory two that says that Glasya has a higher position because she is Asmodeous daughter, Geryon was technically given a promotion because his soul is part of Glasya.

As with anything to do with the devils, its the technicalities that will get you. :P
Thegans
06-11-07, 03:49 PM As with anything to do with the devils, its the technicalities that will get you. :P

Its hell what do you expect. I mean I could see something like this happening.

Soul Shell - "The contract said I would not be tortured."
Asmodeous - "No the contract said Yu would not be tortured. Meet my nephew Yu."
Yu- "Hi nice to meet you."
ArcTan
06-16-07, 04:23 PM If I had to guess I would say that the position of a Lord of the Nine was based on its layer. Thus making Glasya have a higher rank than Levistus and the one Geryon had. Even if this is not the case the daughter of the Overlord of Hell would definately still have a higher position than the Lord of Stygia.

According to theory one that says that Lord of the Nine with a higher number have a higher rank Geryon was techncially given a promotion because his souls is part of Glasya. According to theory two that says that Glasya has a higher position because she is Asmodeous daughter, Geryon was technically given a promotion because his soul is part of Glasya.

That doesn't actually help Geryon himself, though, because he no longer exists.

It's a technicality that makes the ultimate punishment out of a "promotion", if that interpretation is true. Appropriate enough.
Thegans
06-16-07, 08:50 PM That doesn't actually help Geryon himself, though, because he no longer exists.

It's a technicality that makes the ultimate punishment out of a "promotion", if that interpretation is true. Appropriate enough.

The Pact Primeval doesn't help the gods but they originally signed it for their own benefit. In Baator the rules will screw you over becuase as soon as you think you know everything you will discover that the .'s are actually paragraphs written in a very tiny font.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CuttinCurt 05-30-07, 01:53 AM	I was reading through my Fiendish CodexII and found that Geryon's essence had been used to give rise to a new Arch Devil Named Glyssa or something like that. But it gave no reason as to what had happened to him. Can anyone point me to what piece of D&D material states what happened to this arch devil? I would appreciate it. Thanks, CC
sciborg2 05-30-07, 02:12 AM	Glyxsa is Asmo's daughter, and apparently the Hag Countess (Geryon's consort iirc) was put in Geryon's place for many years (centuries? millennia?) only to be destroyed, merged with the layer, so that Glysxa could take her place. Geryon became a vestige, after being deposed by Asmodeus for being...wait for it...too loyal. At least, that's how I remember it.
Steely_Dan 05-30-07, 04:40 AM	Last I heard old Geryee was working as rough trade on Hollywood and Vine.
Naderion 05-30-07, 07:59 AM	Geryon does appear in Tome of Magic as one of the Vestiges.
Light_Colonel 05-30-07, 08:20 AM	Geryon was indeed deposed for being too loyal. IIRC... The Archdukes of Hell all plotted to overthrow Asmodeus. Only Geryon remained loyal to him and warned him of the plot. Once the attempted coup failed, Asmodeus punished Geryon rather than the plotters.
ripvanwormer 05-30-07, 08:21 AM	Can anyone point me to what piece of D&D material states what happened to this arch devil? I would appreciate it. There are three main sources: A Paladin in Hell, which is a 2nd edition adventure by Monte Cook. Geryon is the main villain of that; he's been deposed for millennia and the adventure is about him trying to regain his throne. The Book of Vile Darkness Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030117a), which gives 3rd edition stats and background for the exiled Geryon. Tome of Magic, which made Geryon into a vestige. A waste of an interesting character, in my opinion.
CuttinCurt 05-30-07, 10:15 AM	I do appreciate that. I will look up those sources. Thanks for the info. I to agree that Geryon was quite a good arch duke of hell, one of the ones I distinctly remember for the 2nd edition days, and it is to bad he is nothing now. oh well. I have the tome of magic so I will look up the vestiges. CC
RealSorceror 05-30-07, 04:18 PM	Geryon was indeed deposed for being too loyal. IIRC... The Archdukes of Hell all plotted to overthrow Asmodeus. Only Geryon remained loyal to him and warned him of the plot. Once the attempted coup failed, Asmodeus punished Geryon rather than the plotters. Nobody likes a butt-kisser. Especially not Asmo. ;)
Arbourean 05-30-07, 08:08 PM	Every devil from the lowliest lemure to the mightiest archduke desires to depose their betters and take their place. It's ambition, Geryon obviously lacked it and thus was not worthy of being a Lord of the Nine.
Deper 05-30-07, 08:20 PM	Every devil from the lowliest lemure to the mightiest archduke desires to depose their betters and take their place. It's ambition, Geryon obviously lacked it and thus was not worthy of being a Lord of the Nine. Bingo. It has also been suggested that Greyon's energy was taken in order to help heal Asmodeous's wounds, or to power the re-shaping of his daughter's layer.
sciborg2 05-31-07, 02:36 AM	Tome of Magic, which made Geryon into a vestige. A waste of an interesting character, in my opinion. To me, this is when the story got good...
Phantos 05-31-07, 06:08 PM	It appears as if Loyalty has little place in a Lawful Evil pecking order. I suppose they consider loyalty to be a good-aligned trait, or that the devils care more for evil than they do for law. Weird. Geryon definitely seems like a neat character. As a vestige, well, it seems like something that may be brought up some day as part of the Lord of the Nine's fall.
ArcTan 05-31-07, 06:19 PM	There are three main sources: A Paladin in Hell, which is a 2nd edition adventure by Monte Cook. Geryon is the main villain of that; he's been deposed for millennia and the adventure is about him trying to regain his throne. The Book of Vile Darkness Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030117a), which gives 3rd edition stats and background for the exiled Geryon. Tome of Magic, which made Geryon into a vestige. A waste of an interesting character, in my opinion. Enh, Geryon-vestige is my favorite version of him. Vestiges are only interesting if they come from interesting characters. And the explanation that Asmodeus perversely punished him precisely for being too loyal -- and that the price for ultimate loyalty in Baator is utter annihilation -- seems a lot more interesting than the A Paladin in Hell plot, where he just becomes another exiled archdevil trying to get his place back.
ArcTan 05-31-07, 06:24 PM	It appears as if Loyalty has little place in a Lawful Evil pecking order. I suppose they consider loyalty to be a good-aligned trait, or that the devils care more for evil than they do for law. Weird. Not really. It's just that in an LE universe, having an individual identity is an act of rebellion. Superiors want nothing more from their subordinates but to absorb them, take them entirely into themselves, remove all freedom or choice or identity, to consume. In an LE world, mastery over someone never entails respect for someone -- nobody has any "rights". Thus, the only way to not be absorbed and eaten by an LE overlord is to have some free will and rebellion against them. The only way for rebellion to manifest in an LE universe is as a sense that your superior is inferior to you, that his place is unwarranted, and that you should supplant him. Thus an LE universe is about a hierarchy constantly focused on climbing up the ranks. Hence the Reckoning. Asmodeus has to allow the Reckoning to happen if he's going to have subordinates at all, because the only reason they see to be his subordinates is to someday replace him. True loyalty in Hell means not existing at all -- you are such an instrument of your master that the dividing line between you and your master is nonexistent. It seems only Geryon achieved that level of loyalty, and for that loyalty ceased to exist in the most final way possible (which is how you become a vestige). To me, that's the interesting part of the story. Geryon definitely seems like a neat character. As a vestige, well, it seems like something that may be brought up some day as part of the Lord of the Nine's fall. Bah, the Lords of the Nine will never fall. Not permanently, anyway, or not before the end of the multiverse.
PunkRockBard 05-31-07, 06:32 PM	i dunno....part of me agrees with Rip. i do think that the whole vestige concept is cool. That being said...it can also be a bit limiting to that character. Geryon is now quite limited in character capacity.
ArcTan 05-31-07, 06:56 PM	i dunno....part of me agrees with Rip. i do think that the whole vestige concept is cool. That being said...it can also be a bit limiting to that character. Geryon is now quite limited in character capacity. Vestiges aren't characters. Geryon is no longer a character now, as such. Which I actually think is hella cool. Vestiges are contradictions -- nonexistent but existent, without any will of their own but having an influence through the random will of others who bind them, destroyed but eternal. They come from contradictions, from the memory of things that were destroyed when they shouldn't've been or couldn't've been or never should've existed in the first place. Tenebrous was a contradiction -- he was Orcus and not Orcus, dead and alive, wanted to rule everything while reducing everything to nothing. Now he's a vestige. Same with Geryon -- "rewarded" for the ultimate loyalty with the ultimate betrayal, which was, at the same time, a total confirmation of said loyalty. Geryon's loyalty to Asmodeus was a statement that Asmodeus was supreme, that no freedom from Asmodeus was possible. For a being like Asmodeus, to lack any freedom from him is to not exist at all, to be subsumed into him. Geryon's betrayal was his vindication. Geryon's death was the culmination of his life. Geryon was punished and rewarded and still yet punished all at the same time -- gave everything up for something worthless because it was worthless. Geryon's death was a paradox, and thus Geryon is a vestige.
Deper 05-31-07, 07:29 PM	Vestiges are contridictions, but they don't necessarily arise from contridictions. They appear when a powerful soul or entity dies but is too powerful to simply stay dead or move on to the afterlife (or fade away in some cases). Tenebrous is a case where divinity simply doesn't die easily, especially for something as power and grasping as the desires of Tenebrous (to be alive and a god as Orcus). Greyon is a case where his entire world fell apart because he was too loyal to his master, but where his "soul" had nowhere to go.
PunkRockBard 05-31-07, 07:54 PM	Yes. Which goes back to me still thinking that, while a cool concept, this def. limits the role of Geryon hence forward.
ArcTan 05-31-07, 07:56 PM	Vestiges are contridictions, but they don't necessarily arise from contridictions. They appear when a powerful soul or entity dies but is too powerful to simply stay dead or move on to the afterlife (or fade away in some cases). ...Which is a contradiction. He's too powerful to die, but he's dead. Chupoclops is a case in point. Tenebrous is a case where divinity simply doesn't die easily, especially for something as power and grasping as the desires of Tenebrous (to be alive and a god as Orcus). Greyon is a case where his entire world fell apart because he was too loyal to his master, but where his "soul" had nowhere to go. Well, sure. They both break the normal rules, though. I mean, Tenebrous wasn't just a god who died. Gods who die just die, and end up as corpses on the Astral Plane. Sometimes, once in a long while, they're reborn, sometimes in new forms. They certainly don't all become vestiges. And the thing is that Tenebrous isn't "alive" because he wants to be Orcus. The being that wanted to be Orcus succeeded, and became Orcus again, and is now Orcus. Tenebrous is something left over, that didn't share in the desire to return to life, that couldn't therefore be included in it. Similarly, Geryon isn't just a case of an archfiend being killed. Archfiends that are killed don't automatically become vestiges. (Archfiends that are killed normally don't have souls either -- like all Outsiders, they are souls and are merely gone when destroyed on their home plane.) It only happened to Geryon because, as you say, his entire world fell apart, his existence was founded on a contradiction.
Deper 05-31-07, 08:33 PM	There are others that aren't contridictions. Balam, Aym, Buer, Dahlver-Nar, Dantalin, Eurynome, Ipos,Savnok, Halphax, Lajire, Orthos, etc. You don't have to die in contridiction or be a contratidion to become a vestige. Savnok, for example, became one because he was killed and his body (and assumedly his soul) tossed to wherever the Vestiges come from.
ArcTan 05-31-07, 10:31 PM	There are others that aren't contridictions. Balam, Aym, Buer, Dahlver-Nar, Dantalin, Eurynome, Ipos,Savnok, Halphax, Lajire, Orthos, etc. You don't have to die in contridiction or be a contratidion to become a vestige. Savnok, for example, became one because he was killed and his body (and assumedly his soul) tossed to wherever the Vestiges come from. Well, sure, it's a general theme, not a set-in-stone rule. The overall theme of contradiction still peeks through with the idea of being "too powerful" to die and becoming a vestige. (Yes, everyone who remembers the Empire Dantalion once ruled is dead... but can something that huge really be forgotten? Etc.)
Deper 05-31-07, 10:59 PM	Well, sure, it's a general theme, not a set-in-stone rule. The overall theme of contradiction still peeks through with the idea of being "too powerful" to die and becoming a vestige. (Yes, everyone who remembers the Empire Dantalion once ruled is dead... but can something that huge really be forgotten? Etc.) True, but in that case it's a divine curse that created the vestige.
Thegans 06-10-07, 11:33 PM	Glyxsa is Asmo's daughter, and apparently the Hag Countess (Geryon's consort iirc) was put in Geryon's place for many years (centuries? millennia?) only to be destroyed, merged with the layer, so that Glysxa could take her place. Geryon became a vestige, after being deposed by Asmodeus for being...wait for it...too loyal. At least, that's how I remember it. Geryon was indeed deposed for being too loyal. IIRC... The Archdukes of Hell all plotted to overthrow Asmodeus. Only Geryon remained loyal to him and warned him of the plot. Once the attempted coup failed, Asmodeus punished Geryon rather than the plotters. Every devil from the lowliest lemure to the mightiest archduke desires to depose their betters and take their place. It's ambition, Geryon obviously lacked it and thus was not worthy of being a Lord of the Nine. Actually the Hag Countess was the consort of Moloch. Geryon was replaced by Levistus, the murderer of Asmodeous consort. Still if you think about how Baator works its entirely possbile that Geryon was not actually punished. The Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells mentions that devils embrace the process of promotion as the ultimate triumph of law and hierarchy over mere individuality. Also it mentions that Geryon's energy was used to promote Glasya, who apparently became much more powerful once she became the Achduchess of Malbolge. If I had to guess I would say that the position of a Lord of the Nine was based on its layer. Thus making Glasya have a higher rank than Levistus and the one Geryon had. Even if this is not the case the daughter of the Overlord of Hell would definately still have a higher position than the Lord of Stygia. According to theory one that says that Lord of the Nine with a higher number have a higher rank Geryon was techncially given a promotion because his souls is part of Glasya. According to theory two that says that Glasya has a higher position because she is Asmodeous daughter, Geryon was technically given a promotion because his soul is part of Glasya.
sooperspook 06-11-07, 12:27 AM	According to theory one that says that Lord of the Nine with a higher number have a higher rank Geryon was techncially given a promotion because his souls is part of Glasya. According to theory two that says that Glasya has a higher position because she is Asmodeous daughter, Geryon was technically given a promotion because his soul is part of Glasya. As with anything to do with the devils, its the technicalities that will get you. :P
Thegans 06-11-07, 03:49 PM	As with anything to do with the devils, its the technicalities that will get you. :P Its hell what do you expect. I mean I could see something like this happening. Soul Shell - "The contract said I would not be tortured." Asmodeous - "No the contract said Yu would not be tortured. Meet my nephew Yu." Yu- "Hi nice to meet you."
ArcTan 06-16-07, 04:23 PM	If I had to guess I would say that the position of a Lord of the Nine was based on its layer. Thus making Glasya have a higher rank than Levistus and the one Geryon had. Even if this is not the case the daughter of the Overlord of Hell would definately still have a higher position than the Lord of Stygia. According to theory one that says that Lord of the Nine with a higher number have a higher rank Geryon was techncially given a promotion because his souls is part of Glasya. According to theory two that says that Glasya has a higher position because she is Asmodeous daughter, Geryon was technically given a promotion because his soul is part of Glasya. That doesn't actually help Geryon himself, though, because he no longer exists. It's a technicality that makes the ultimate punishment out of a "promotion", if that interpretation is true. Appropriate enough.
Thegans 06-16-07, 08:50 PM	That doesn't actually help Geryon himself, though, because he no longer exists. It's a technicality that makes the ultimate punishment out of a "promotion", if that interpretation is true. Appropriate enough. The Pact Primeval doesn't help the gods but they originally signed it for their own benefit. In Baator the rules will screw you over becuase as soon as you think you know everything you will discover that the .'s are actually paragraphs written in a very tiny font.