Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aseran 09-12-07, 09:40 PM	So it looks as if our favorite rotund demon prince is going to be playing some kind of role of prominence in 4e. He's the cover model of the Monster Manual, and they even showed off a gargantuan-sized Orcus for D&D Minis at GenCon (which they may or may not release for retail, damn them!). I'm wondering what this means in terms of his story, though. Assuming it isn't some new fabrication (and possibly retconned), it could indicate developments in the Abyss. What's the status of the war between him and Graz'zt and Demogorgon (assuming the latter is even still alive) going to be? What about Kiaransalee? Are we possibly going to see the re-emergence of Tenebrous and the Visages in some peripheral context? Maybe new Bloodstone Lands adventures for Forgotten Realms? Towards the end of 2e, Orcus came back from the dead (in phenomenally badass fashion, at that). What's he done in 3e adventures aside from lose a fight with Demogorgon on the parapets of Abysm towards the end of Savage Tide, I wonder? Any thoughts?
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-12-07, 11:09 PM	Tenebrous has returned as a vestige in Tome of Magic. I don't think Orcus has been involved in any major projects or novels besides the STAP.
StevenO 09-12-07, 11:20 PM	Well, at the end of the Savage Tide he may have been the one who successfully claimed the title of Prince of Demons. Even without that he seems to have taken a nice chunk of territory on another plane in the Abyss.
Orodruin 09-13-07, 06:38 AM	Yeah, he had a fun role in Savage Tide. It's a shame his battle with Demogorgon in Abysm couldn't be described in more detail, but the guy sure had guts, or much more likely, a seriously over-inflated ego.
Zousha_Omenohu 09-13-07, 09:58 AM	What's Savage Tide?
Taeldrin Laesrash 09-13-07, 10:04 AM	The adventure path (campaign) that was run in Dungeon from #139 to #150. Dealt with the defeat of Demogorgon.
Aseran 09-13-07, 11:50 AM	Well, if Orcus is the new Prince of Demons, that would certainly explain a few things. That idea of Orcus and Demogorgon fighting it out atop Abysm is really a captivating visual, though. I also think it's too bad there wasn't much detail there--I'm just imagining how incredibly epic and cinematic that battle could be, but there'd be no way to preserve that and involve the players. Do you think they're going to say that, canonically, Orcus won that fight? Much the same as how at the end of Dead Gods, they said Quah-Namog fully succeeded in resurrecting him despite the fact that the PCs could prevent that in the actual game.
Mirtek 09-13-07, 12:07 PM	I liked the battle picture with Orcus crawling on hands and knees (possibly just recovering from Demogorgon's last attack) with blood running freely from his nose while Demogorgon is just jumping to hit him while he's down (blood flowing from the stump of his severed left tentacle)
Osedox 09-13-07, 04:19 PM	I liked the battle picture with Orcus crawling on hands and knees (possibly just recovering from Demogorgon's last attack) with blood running freely from his nose while Demogorgon is just jumping to hit him while he's down (blood flowing from the stump of his severed left tentacle) I like that picture as well, although it does bother me how demogorgon's wound seems to be impossible based simply on Orcus's armament.
ripvanwormer 09-13-07, 08:16 PM	Do you think they're going to say that, canonically, Orcus won that fight? No. The adventure actually sets things up so that there's a good chance the next Prince of Demons is a player character - but it could also be Orcus, Graz'zt, Dagon, Obox-ob, or any number of other possibilities. Or Demogorgon might win and still be in charge. But Orcus lost the fight; that much is certain. He lost and teleported out with his tail between his goaty legs. He lost because if he won, the PCs wouldn't have gotten any of the glory. His role in that fight was simply to weaken Demogorgon so that the PCs can take him down. There is no possibility in the adventure, as written, that he actually wins. He might well claim the title of Prince of Demons afterwards - that's possible, certainly - but he doesn't earn it by straight-out beating up Demogorgon in a fight. Will any of this end up as 4e canon? Doubtful, from the way things are looking right now. None of the adventure is even possible without the interference of Red Shroud, Shami-Amourae, and Malcanthet, and the current pack of geniuses seems to have written them out of the canon. Without them, the PCs don't get to the final stage of the adventure, and Demogorgon doesn't get taken down.
Orodruin 09-13-07, 09:31 PM	I like that picture as well, although it does bother me how demogorgon's wound seems to be impossible based simply on Orcus's armament. I wasn't too keen on it myself. I thought Demogorgon looked like a two-headed, tenatcled ferret that was somehow suspended in mid-air. It's always been a problem with the "Big D" though. His look is just so gosh-darn insane that it takes a really talented artist to render him well. I absolutely love the cover of Dragon #357, for instance. I liked his illustration in FC1 as well, and the covers to Dungeon #120 and #150 were decent. The 1st ed monster manual however, not so much. And his painting in the miniatures handbook was just downright goofy. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mhbk_gallery/76929_CN.jpg)
frietex 09-13-07, 11:29 PM	As for Kiaransalee she has died in the latest FR novel to come out
Aseran 09-13-07, 11:58 PM	As for Kiaransalee she has died in the latest FR novel to come out That's in the FR continuity, though. I dunno if that makes a difference. I don't think that Lolth's Silence was taken into account in the core setting (it certainly would have made an interesting background detail for Expedition to the Demonweb Pits). It does seem like it's starting to look more and more as if a lot of these old storylines, the various shifts in the balances of power among the gods and archfiends, really is about to be written out of the whole picture. Ripvanwormer, I'm kind of afraid that whole gargantuan timeline of the Planes you compiled is going to end up completely irrelevant. :(
ripvanwormer 09-14-07, 01:40 AM	Ripvanwormer, I'm kind of afraid that whole gargantuan timeline of the Planes you compiled is going to end up completely irrelevant. Meh. I'll find a way to reconcile it all. I always do. I was very pleased with the way that Shemmy reconciled the whole idea of Lolth's silence with the Great Wheel cosmology in the last issue of Dragon, by the way.
caeruleus 09-14-07, 09:18 AM	Will any of this end up as 4e canon? Doubtful, from the way things are looking right now. None of the adventure is even possible without the interference of Red Shroud, Shami-Amourae, and Malcanthet, and the current pack of geniuses seems to have written them out of the canon. Without them, the PCs don't get to the final stage of the adventure, and Demogorgon doesn't get taken down. With all these changes, what's to stop them from coming up with another story in which Demogorgon is defeated? I don't think they necessarily will. He's classic... it's just that they don't quite seem to care about these things quite as much as they used to.
Andyr 09-14-07, 09:47 AM	As for Kiaransalee... Please put such stuff in spoiler blocks, it's still quite a new book and so lots of us have not been able to read it yet!
pratputajao 09-14-07, 01:48 PM	With all these changes, what's to stop them from coming up with another story in which Demogorgon is defeated? I don't think they necessarily will. He's classic... it's just that they don't quite seem to care about these things quite as much as they used to. Well I know at the end of 1e there was a Module where the party was expected to destroy orcus on his home layer- Throne of Bloodstone Lvl 20-100- but it didnt change anything in the actual rules, Orcus still exhisted. Ofcourse in the PCs campiegn he may be dead but that would have no effect on someone elses campiegn.... But that was with the Old writters, the new ones seem to enjoy changing things for no good reason so it will remain to be seen if DG still exists in 4e. Theyve already done some really dumb things when it comes to Archfiends as a whole. Nothing would surprise me at this point from this bunch :rolleyes:
Aseran 09-14-07, 06:37 PM	Well I know at the end of 1e there was a Module where the party was expected to destroy orcus on his home layer- Throne of Bloodstone Lvl 20-100- but it didnt change anything in the actual rules, Orcus still exhisted. Actually, after the Throne of Bloodstone module, I don't believe Orcus was ever featured in anything else for a long while, and in canon he was considered "dead". In 2e, it was partially retconned to say that Kiaransalee murdered him (as opposed to Gareth Dragonsbane & co., the default 'heroes' of the Bloodstone modules), though they didn't even use his name, rather just said she'd won dominance over Thanatos by killing it's former ruler. Then, towards the end of 2e, the Great Modron March and Dead Gods adventures for Planescape brought him back first as a vengeful undead spirit, who revived fully and returned to being the Orcus we all know.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-14-07, 10:17 PM	I was very pleased with the way that Shemmy reconciled the whole idea of Lolth's silence with the Great Wheel cosmology in the last issue of Dragon, by the way. Why thank you :) As for Kiaransalee's stuff in "Storm of the Dead", it's pretty simple to say that she's fine and dandy in the multiverse at large, just that she "died" in FR and lost her formal divine presence within the ranks of the dark seldarine worshipped on Toril. Anywhere else she'd be unaffected, and probably much more worried about Orcus than anything else that Lolth might have planned.
pratputajao 09-15-07, 02:39 AM	Actually, after the Throne of Bloodstone module, I don't believe Orcus was ever featured in anything else for a long while, and in canon he was considered "dead". In 2e, it was partially retconned to say that Kiaransalee murdered him (as opposed to Gareth Dragonsbane & co., the default 'heroes' of the Bloodstone modules), though they didn't even use his name, rather just said she'd won dominance over Thanatos by killing it's former ruler. Then, towards the end of 2e, the Great Modron March and Dead Gods adventures for Planescape brought him back first as a vengeful undead spirit, who revived fully and returned to being the Orcus we all know. Well if you remember correctly Orcus wasnt around in most of 2e becouse there were no demonlords around in 2e. Grazz'zt, Pazuzu, Fraz'urb'lu etc all gone. You know how DnD was turning us all in to devil worshipers..hehe... Yes, DG (and a few others) was around ONLY becouse he was also a "true" diety as he was the god of a race ( or two even) he was not refered to as a "Demon" until late in 2e. Actually as I think of it wasnt Orcus given as some sort of God of the undead in the Dieties for humanoids and monster (the same book Demogorgon was in) book? Could be wrong, But I thought that DG, Orcus, Yeenaghoo, Lolth and Baphomet remained in the game as Gods? While I am not sure why they decided to kill off orcus ( to be brought back ofcourse) I am not sure it had much to do with Bloodstone as there had been alot of time in between. But Maybe there is a connection.
Aseran 09-15-07, 06:35 AM	Well if you remember correctly Orcus wasnt around in most of 2e becouse there were no demonlords around in 2e. Grazz'zt, Pazuzu, Fraz'urb'lu etc all gone. Actually, 2e, at least in Planescape, DID have the demon lords, they just referred to them as 'Abyssal Lords'. Graz'zt, Pazuzu, Demogorgon, Baphomet, and many of the rest were represented in books detailing the Fiends and the Abyss. However, as mentioned before, Orcus was notably absent until The Great Modron March came out.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-15-07, 07:43 AM	Well if you remember correctly Orcus wasnt around in most of 2e becouse there were no demonlords around in 2e. Demonlords existed during 2e. The material written on them during 2e utterly eclipses that produced during 1e. Some of them were also deities yes, but that wasn't different in most cases from their 1e status either. They might have been called Abyssal Lords or Archfiends, rather than "demonlords", but that's just semantics.
pratputajao 09-15-07, 09:55 AM	Demonlords existed during 2e. The material written on them during 2e utterly eclipses that produced during 1e. Some of them were also deities yes, but that wasn't different in most cases from their 1e status either. They might have been called Abyssal Lords or Archfiends, rather than "demonlords", but that's just semantics. Hmmm, actually I had quit playing DnD sometime in '95, so my memory is only good until then ( D'oh!,should have mentioned that) Anyway up to at that time('95) I dont recall anything about Abysial lords? I cant even remember if Demogorgon was called such in his avatars writeup in huminiod and monsters dieties book, Monster Mythology? I do know for a fact that there were NO Arch devils until later in 2e. When I quit actively playing there were no Archdevils, the Hells were said to be ruled by 9 or 13 Pitfiends. I know latter on (when TSR came to their sences) they reintroduced Archdevils with Asmodeus being some kind of greater god or something. I dont recall any book that went into detail about Demon lords or Abysial lords...I am confident my group would have had it. After '95 they may have been reintroduced more heavily but until then there was very little about the rulers of Demonkind in anybook. However, Even if something came out in '96 documenting these beings I wouldnt have known about it, I was compleatly away from the game at that time. I just know at the begining to 2e All arch devils were gone and the Demonlords that still existed were listed as gods that lived in the abyss rather than rulers of Demonkind. What book reintroduced Demon lords and /or Archdevils in 2e? I could be wrong but I am fairly certain that is how it was up to '95.
pratputajao 09-15-07, 10:00 AM	Actually, 2e, at least in Planescape, DID have the demon lords, they just referred to them as 'Abyssal Lords'. Graz'zt, Pazuzu, Demogorgon, Baphomet, and many of the rest were represented in books detailing the Fiends and the Abyss. However, as mentioned before, Orcus was notably absent until The Great Modron March came out. Ahh thank you, these books came out after 95, so I was unaware of them. So at least until these books came out there wasnt much about the rulers of the Abyss. I figure this would have been a couple of years at the begining of 2e where there wasnt anything about demon lords and such. Also wasnt orcus in the Monster Mythology book? I seem to remember him. I could be wrong though.
Lobsopdoy 09-18-07, 02:55 PM	I wasn't too keen on it myself. I thought Demogorgon looked like a two-headed, tenatcled ferret that was somehow suspended in mid-air. It's always been a problem with the "Big D" though. His look is just so gosh-darn insane that it takes a really talented artist to render him well. I absolutely love the cover of Dragon #357, for instance. I liked his illustration in FC1 as well, and the covers to Dungeon #120 and #150 were decent. The 1st ed monster manual however, not so much. And his painting in the miniatures handbook was just downright goofy. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mhbk_gallery/76929_CN.jpg) *Looks at picture and collapses in laughter* "HELP MAH HEAD DONE FLEW UP AGAIN!
ripvanwormer 09-18-07, 03:08 PM	Also wasnt orcus in the Monster Mythology book? No, he wasn't. When I quit actively playing there were no Archdevils, the Hells were said to be ruled by 9 or 13 Pitfiends. Eight, but it was suggested that the Dark Eight might have superiors that most sages don't know about. The Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set (1994) actually mentioned Dispater, though. I dont recall any book that went into detail about Demon lords or Abysial lords...I am confident my group would have had it. Demogorgon, Sess'inek, Lolth, Juiblex, Yeenoghu, Kostchtchie, and Baphomet were all explicitly called "tanar'ri lords," and were fully described in Monster Mythology, published in 1992. Graz'zt and Pazrael were fully statted in Iuz the Evil, which was published in 1993. All of these beings, and the layers under their control, were also described in Planes of Chaos, which was published in 1994. Orcus was alluded to in that book, but not mentioned by name.
pratputajao 09-18-07, 11:06 PM	No, he wasn't. Eight, but it was suggested that the Dark Eight might have superiors that most sages don't know about. The Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set (1994) actually mentioned Dispater, though. Demogorgon, Sess'inek, Lolth, Juiblex, Yeenoghu, Kostchtchie, and Baphomet were all explicitly called "tanar'ri lords," and were fully described in Monster Mythology, published in 1992. Graz'zt and Pazrael were fully statted in Iuz the Evil, which was published in 1993. All of these beings, and the layers under their control, were also described in Planes of Chaos, which was published in 1994. Orcus was alluded to in that book, but not mentioned by name. Well it seems I stand corrected....wow I cant believe we missed those? Thats odd for our group but some of us were going off to college at that time and they must have went under the radar somehow. I really dont recal any of those beings being called tanar'ri lords in Monster mythology? But it has been a long time and I havent seen any 2e book since Nov 94 so its possible I guess. The one thing I do remember was how really weak most of those Avatar stats were for the corrasponding lord. MUCH worse than anything now. Demogorgon was like a 14 level cleric and had about 100hp. But those were the avatar. They didnt give his real stats as being a lesser god made him all but invincible to all but gods of equal status and above. ( I think? Heh could be wrong about that as well :D ) Well thanks for the correction.....jeesh its been too long...hehe
Nadaka 09-19-07, 12:11 AM	Orcus makes an appearance at the bottom of the Rappan Athuk adventure series (and presumably Rappan Athuk Reloaded) by necromancer games. Unfortunately it is nigh impossible to get ahold of R3 or RAR.
Deacon Liadon 09-19-07, 05:47 PM	Jubilex is also the main villain in Chaos Rising by Necromancer games. A rather fun module with some whacky time-travelling antics. At one point you have to help stave off an army of Orcus's minions.
_Nova_ 09-22-07, 10:40 AM	wow there is so much I dont know about THE SAVAGE TIDE!! All I know is that its an adventure from DUNGEON 139 to 150 and that it involves demonlords a lot, which interests me at a very high point since Im actually mastering a game centered on Demon cults in a demiplane I invented... If someone has much time to loose...I would be really grateful to receive a MP with a resume of the savage tide adventure, about the involvement of the demon lords and what action they take...that might certainely be great stuff for my own game!
18DELTA 09-23-07, 03:29 AM	Well his name was the code word for 4th edition. He has been really busy, making rules, changing the devils around, & lastly ruling over the hearts & minds of D&D players everywhere.;) :P