Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thegans 06-13-07, 03:48 PM	Bel watches as the demon lords arrive on his layer along with the The General of Gehenna. At that moment all of the demons suddenly stop fighting. Armies of celestial creatures arrived along the border along with the celestial paragons. Bel turned and saw Asmodeous and the other Lords of the Nine. All except Levistus. "What is the meaning of this?" Bel asked. "It seems that I missed something in my calculations," Asmodeous said. "Under normal circumstances we would not be here either," Morwel said. "This is not the place for our usual squabbles. We still have to get the other three here," the General of Geheena said. "Primus and the forces of Mechus should be here soon," Glasya said. "We will handle the slaadi," Dagon said. "Excelent and the Rilmani will easily be convinced once this is complete," Asmodeous said. "When what is complete?" Bel asked. "The ultimate alliance," Primus said, upon his arrival. What would it take for a situation like this to happen? What kind of threat or benefit would be enough to unite the outerplanes and cause a temorary or even permanent cease fire? I am toying with the idea for a setting but I am having trouble figuring out what the most likely thing would be.
Micheal_Roele 06-13-07, 03:58 PM	FC III hints Asmodeus wants to stop the war against the Demons long enough to attack the Upper Planes, and once victorious, then winner takes all between Demon and Devil. If you are doing a grand Good vs. Evil or Law vs. Chaos in a game, then you might want your PC's to be Epic level, otherwise, it will be pretty boring watching all these great powers fight if you are low to mid, and having to struggle against hordes of Lemures or Dretches. I don't know what could unite all the planes to be honest. Too many of them don't play well with others. :)
_Nova_ 06-13-07, 03:58 PM	hehhe I dont know what it would take to unite all the outer planes together (seems almost impossible to me) but I sure know that Dagon would look pretty clumsy walking on the ground of Avernus :p what could unite all the buddies under a single banner? Hmm what about this terribly powerful entity living in the void between the elemental plane of air and the negative energy plane? Sun Sing is the name I think Maybe this entity could threaten the whole fabric of the cosmology making to outer planes (and all the others) unite to survive or be annihilated
KedynCrow 06-13-07, 04:02 PM	As far as I am concerned, the outer planes have always been at war and always will. The Lawful Evil Devils might be convinced to temporarily stop their scheming and undermining should their life or power be threatened suitably. The war might grind to a halt if the threat were great enough. Self-preservation above all else. The Demons however, embodiments of chaotic evil and the purest distillation of hatred and malice known to date...the war goes ever onward. No retreat, no surrender. My two coppers.
Red Dragon 06-13-07, 04:33 PM	Ragnarock's Far Realm equivalent? (IE: Epic CR creatures from the Far Realm invade en masse. Everyone native to the regular cosmology vs. the Far Realm in an epic battle to save reality itself, unite or be destroyed utterly and forever (Yeah, we'd probably still lose :P ). Short of that? I really wouldn't want to take a guess...
Altar_Boy 06-13-07, 04:53 PM	In my campaign, the Material Plane was formed from pieces of the Outer Planes, mixed in a primordial stew for centuries, and formed with the best and worst of the Planes in it. If this were my campaign, I would say the Outer Planes are deterioting thanks to this damage. The two options would be retrieving the composite pieces from the Material Plane, sifting them back into their original states, and reattaching them; or fusing the Planes together to make a new Material Plane (Material-2 :globe: ). Eh. Just say that everyone wants to gang up on the Lady of Pain.
Thegans 06-13-07, 05:48 PM	hehhe I dont know what it would take to unite all the outer planes together (seems almost impossible to me) but I sure know that Dagon would look pretty clumsy walking on the ground of Avernus :p what could unite all the buddies under a single banner? Hmm what about this terribly powerful entity living in the void between the elemental plane of air and the negative energy plane? Sun Sing is the name I think Maybe this entity could threaten the whole fabric of the cosmology making to outer planes (and all the others) unite to survive or be annihilated Threat to the fabric of reality is what I am thinking. Also what book his information on this Sun Sing. I heard of it but not much. As far as I am concerned, the outer planes have always been at war and always will. The Lawful Evil Devils might be convinced to temporarily stop their scheming and undermining should their life or power be threatened suitably. The war might grind to a halt if the threat were great enough. Self-preservation above all else. The Demons however, embodiments of chaotic evil and the purest distillation of hatred and malice known to date...the war goes ever onward. No retreat, no surrender. My two coppers. Demons are chaotic but I really don't think their stupid. Also a shift in the war could be seen as chaotic. Of course some might try to take advantage of the disaster that makes it necessary. Ragnarock's Far Realm equivalent? (IE: Epic CR creatures from the Far Realm invade en masse. Everyone native to the regular cosmology vs. the Far Realm in an epic battle to save reality itself, unite or be destroyed utterly and forever (Yeah, we'd probably still lose :P ). Short of that? I really wouldn't want to take a guess... Thats similar to one of the ideas I had. The Uvvudam (or however you spell it) begin an invasion that devistates several of the planes in search of something. The outerplanes align because they know that even the infnite abyss is not enough on its own to survive against the Lords of the Far Realm. I am also toying with the idea of an outerplane vs. innerplane kind of thing. In my campaign, the Material Plane was formed from pieces of the Outer Planes, mixed in a primordial stew for centuries, and formed with the best and worst of the Planes in it. If this were my campaign, I would say the Outer Planes are deterioting thanks to this damage. The two options would be retrieving the composite pieces from the Material Plane, sifting them back into their original states, and reattaching them; or fusing the Planes together to make a new Material Plane (Material-2 :globe: ). Eh. Just say that everyone wants to gang up on the Lady of Pain. Mass suicide. "I am tired of living," Asmodeous said. "So am I," Orcus said. "Yes things are quite boring," Morwel said. "Lets attack the Lady of Pain," Primus said. "Perfect that should get us killed successfully," Demogorgan said.
Red Dragon 06-13-07, 05:57 PM	:D Sounds about right...
Shemeska the Marauder 06-13-07, 06:48 PM	Threat to the fabric of reality is what I am thinking. Also what book his information on this Sun Sing. I heard of it but not much. 2e The Inner Planes 3.5 Fiendish Codex I Very very little is known, but FC:I infers some things about its identity (or rather what it seems is unlikely for it to be given the timeframe it appears in and seems capable of).
XHereticX 06-13-07, 07:52 PM	One word...Tharizdun
navar100 06-13-07, 10:03 PM	Last campaign the Demons and Devils exchanged ambassadorial prisoners to end the Blood War. United, they sent factions to distract the Upper Planes while they had their main invasion of the game world - Armageddon. The god essence of Law was released from his prison to set right all that Chaos has wrought over the millenia, beginning with ending Armageddon and restarting the Blood War. This campaign we learned that long ago all the gods united to fight off an impending invasion of the Cthulu Pantheon.
caeruleus 06-14-07, 04:03 PM	One word...Tharizdun My thoughts exactly.
Anodai 06-14-07, 04:26 PM	Pun-Pun
Dracomortis 06-14-07, 04:31 PM	Well, let's see...the demons and the devils once considered an alliance when the mind flayers began to rise to power (or, more appropriately, they will consider an alliance when the rise happens) but never did, as far as I know. So to get all of them to unite would take something more powerful than the world-spanning empire of the illithids. End of the world sounds like your only bet.
Thegans 06-14-07, 06:01 PM	So basically to unite all of the upper planes it would basically take something that makes everyone think. "I can't let that kill them. If that kills them how will I get to kill them." Well I think I figured out someting and as for Pun-Pun. I don't know if an alliance with the far realm would ever be possible and I don't think anyone is dumb enough to challange the over overgod that is Pun-Pun.
XHereticX 06-14-07, 07:28 PM	I don't think anyone is dumb enough to challange the over overgod that is Pun-Pun. Chuck Norris would:D
Thegans 06-14-07, 10:56 PM	Chuck Norris would:D If your trying to say that Chuck Norris would be dumb enough to challange Pun Pun, I guess everyone can get a natural one on their sanity checks. As for if Chuck Norris can beat Pun Pun. I still hold the theory that Chuck Norris is a polymorphed Pun Pun. Or maybe Pun Pun is a polymorphed Chuck Norris. Or he could be the Lady of Pain. Wait I got it. Pun Pun created two clones with different appearanced and sent them into the past. Chuck Norris used his power to create the future Pun Pun. The Lady of Pain than used her power to stablize time to create the infinite loop hole that allowed Pun Pun and Chuck Norris to create each other. Lets add Tharizdun and the Elder Evils into that somewhere. What would the challange rating for that be? I am guessing something along the lines of 97,453. Or is that too low?
Jarred Garrison 06-15-07, 07:38 AM	So low that it doesnīt get anywhere close. The CR for that is a number so big itīs beyond us mortalsī imagination :D . Now being serious... Unless Asmodeus strikes a deal with the Demon lords (Grazīzt being the most likely candidate), or something that threatened both the Devils and Demonsī existance (think, end of the multiverse kinda deal), I donīt see this happening.
Dragonprime 06-15-07, 04:43 PM	Duct tape them all together until they agree to play nice.
Thegans 06-15-07, 05:55 PM	So low that it doesnīt get anywhere close. The CR for that is a number so big itīs beyond us mortalsī imagination :D . Now being serious... Unless Asmodeus strikes a deal with the Demon lords (Grazīzt being the most likely candidate), or something that threatened both the Devils and Demonsī existance (think, end of the multiverse kinda deal), I donīt see this happening. When I said the outer planes I meant all of them. Not the just the lower planes. The lower and the upper planes. Although you have a point. So far the only things besides an overgod seem to be the far realm or Tharizdun. Duct tape them all together until they agree to play nice. Devils - "Kill him." Demons - "kill him." Primus - "Kill him." Other lawful outsiders - "Kill him." Slaadis - "Kill him." the three celestial races - "Kill him." the neural evil race- " Kill him." Rilimians - "Wow for once we don't have to maintain the balance. No wait we mean. Kill him." Person with duct tape- "This was a really dumb idea."
Surgo 06-15-07, 06:17 PM	"Threat to reality" seems like it's not only not enough to unite the outer planes, but somewhat counter-intuitive. I remember Pale Night in FC1 as being somewhat "outside reality" if you will, or at least so horrid/alien that reality itself rejects her. This is a powerful and influential demon lord right here, and should be considered a threat to reality in her own right. A threat to reality is an interesting angle for planar unification but some threats are already a part of the planes.
Thegans 06-15-07, 06:57 PM	"Threat to reality" seems like it's not only not enough to unite the outer planes, but somewhat counter-intuitive. I remember Pale Night in FC1 as being somewhat "outside reality" if you will, or at least so horrid/alien that reality itself rejects her. This is a powerful and influential demon lord right here, and should be considered a threat to reality in her own right. A threat to reality is an interesting angle for planar unification but some threats are already a part of the planes. Uvuudaum the Lords of the Far Realm are probably more a threat to reality than a demon lord. I don't think Pale Night counts since shes more along the lines of between reality. To alien for the normal world and to normal for the far realm. Although I have to admit the Uvuudaem don't look like they would drive someone mad. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44184_C5_Uvuudaum.jpg
HellflameArcanite 06-15-07, 07:07 PM	I don't really know much about interplanar or even intraplanar alliances, but given what I know about Devils and Celestials, Demons and Formians, etc., to unite all extremes of an alignment and the very beings who embody them, it would take a threat that could not be possible in this multiverse. It would take an extreme beyond anything else. A Chaos Overdeity who wishes to destroy everything, a Lawful Overdeity who decides upon a peaceful void, a Good Overdeity who wishes to cleanse all, etc.
Dragonprime 06-15-07, 09:37 PM	Devils - "Kill him." Demons - "kill him." Primus - "Kill him." Other lawful outsiders - "Kill him." Slaadis - "Kill him." the three celestial races - "Kill him." the neural evil race- " Kill him." Rilimians - "Wow for once we don't have to maintain the balance. No wait we mean. Kill him." Person with duct tape- "This was a really dumb idea." I think you underestimate the power of ductape.
TheCrawlingSpleen 06-15-07, 10:19 PM	One word...Tharizdun My thoughts exactly. I'll add my vote to the backers of Tharizdun. Why? Because, it has forced the Outer Planes to unite in the past. We're talking about the combined might of every deity, good and evil, lawful and chaotic, arrayed against He of Eternal Darkness. I'd imagine that such an alliance likely included such power players as Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, Dagon, Obox-ob, Morwel, etc. (providing that they were around at the time). Lots of people have stated that the impending end of the multiverse or a threat to the fabric of reality would be required. This is handy, seeing as Big T's overall goal is the destruction of the multiverse. Check out Lords of Madness and Complete Divine for info on Tharizdun, scarce as it is.
XHereticX 06-15-07, 11:06 PM	Nah, the first time Tharizdun focused on the prime material and that forced all the deities(cept' Nerull) to ally against him. Though if he tried to sack the outer planes...yeah, that would be dangerous. Oh, does anyone have any info on these lords of the far realm? I don't know anything about them, are they like the outer gods in Lovecraft or something like that?
TheCrawlingSpleen 06-15-07, 11:22 PM	:doh: Man, why is it that whenever I think I'm being helpful, it turns out I'm operating on incomplete information? I think my basic idea still holds some water, though. If Tharizdun ever managed to wipe out the Prime Material Plane, I doubt it'd stop there. at least, it wouldn't stop this time. After all, I'd imagine it remembers the deities who imprisoned it, and would probably come after them, and their planes too. By the way, XHereticX, any idea what kept Nerull out of the fight last time? I mean, it's not like he's stupid or anything.
XHereticX 06-15-07, 11:23 PM	Nerull was corrupted by Tharizdun in the first place, and is being manipulated by him whether he likes it or not. Yes, you could make Big T go after the planes first, but where would he get his army?
TheCrawlingSpleen 06-15-07, 11:33 PM	Yes, you could make Big T go after the planes first, but where would he get his army? Jeesh, try to destroy the universe one time and nobody wants to work with you. I wish I could answer that question, but I don't know where he got his first army, so...who knows. I'd imagine that whoever is depraved enough to spring a cosmos-menacing abomination from prison in the first place is probably also willing to fight for it. A few psychotic cultists, however, is a long way from an army. Edit: Just thought of something. We all know that Tharizdun works under the guise of the Elder Elemental Eye, and the Eye is served by its own cultists as well as the followers of the princes of elemental evil (Ogremoch, Yan-C-Bin, etc.). When they find out that the Eye is in fact Tharizdun, a lot of followers are no doubt going to have an abrupt change of heart. However, if it could corrupt Nerull, maybe the princes of elemental evil are also under Tharizdun's sway, whether they know it or not. They have many powerful elemental creatures working for them (MM4) and those could be the beginnings of an army. It'd still be small, though, compared to the combined power of the Outer Planes, but it's a thought.
XHereticX 06-15-07, 11:41 PM	Jeesh, try to destroy the universe one time and nobody wants to work with you. I wish I could answer that question, but I don't know where he got his first army, so...who knows. I'd imagine that whoever is depraved enough to spring a cosmos-menacing abomination from prison in the first place is probably also willing to fight for it. A few psychotic cultists, however, is a long way from an army. Now that I notice it...the demons wanna destroy the multiverse too. Or maybe he could strike a deal with the creatures of the Far Realm?
Zousha_Omenohu 06-16-07, 12:05 AM	How did Tharizdun corrupt Nerull? And what was he like before it happened? Also, I agree with everyone else here. Only a very, very powerful threat to the Great Wheel as a whole could cause the alignments to stop fighting and unite. And once that threat was defeated, there can be no doubt that a second battle would begin almost instantly amongst the alignments, no longer needing each other, and all taking advantage of their enemies being weakened by the previous fight.
Lorft2 06-16-07, 12:28 PM	Either a mass attack from the far realms, or the Lady of Pain escaping her cage... Lorft
Millenia 06-16-07, 01:51 PM	A Klondike bar.
TheCrawlingSpleen 06-16-07, 03:03 PM	You win.
Zousha_Omenohu 06-17-07, 02:15 AM	Just got an idea that might be feasable, and it would get the gods in on the alliance as well: An upstart mortal believes that if the influence of the gods and outsiders and magic as a whole is removed from the world, then men will be the final arbiters of right and wrong, and that he can bring peace to the world. So he begins a sort of a crusade, eventually drawing impressionable mortals to his cause, destroying the temples of all the gods, even those dedicated to good, burning tomes of magic, driving away magical creatures and killing any and all spellcasters. Eventually, his crusade succeeds, removing magic from the world, and at the same time, placing him as the most powerful man in the world so he can begin building his magic-free utopian world. This has the somewhat unforseen side effect of completely cutting off the Material Plane from the Great Wheel as a whole, which is throwing everything out of balance. The forces of not just the alignments, but all the gods and elemental forces meet and agree that enough is enough, and that with their combined strength, they can force their way back into the Material Plane and show that magic is forever, that men are not the ones who decide right and wrong and that the authority of the gods cannot be challenged!:fight!: Well, what do you think?
Dracomortis 06-17-07, 09:04 AM	A Klondike bar. Dear gods, I just got an image of a mind flayer trying to sing the little jingle. With Pelor in the background. But herein lies the problem: the forces would quickly split along the lines of what variety of Klondike bar they thought was best. On one side, you have the conservatives, clinging desperately to their traditional ice cream treats. On the other side, you would have the radicals, sporting their strawberry and chocolate-filled Klondikes on soft cookie sandwiches. Oh, and then the rilmanis would want both kinds, but nobody likes them.
HellflameArcanite 06-17-07, 10:24 AM	Think about it. Extremes can be the most dangerous things in existance. A primal, unstoppable force of Good would even want to destroy celestials for missing church while fighting demons, or not finding a lemure's hiding place. An Evil force would want to destroy all. A Lawful force would want to rest in the uniform, ordered void which would be obtained by destroying everything, and a Chaotic force would want to make everything a complete blur, and perhaps make every single atom in the multiverse a different element. The possibilities are endless.
XHereticX 06-17-07, 11:42 AM	I still say either Tharizdun or the Far Realms. Unless the Harmonium suddenly gains strange divine powers...