Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 01-26-08, 12:31 AM	Here's the basic issue. The term ur-priest is fine for referring to actual ur-priests -- it encapsulates both the beliefs they all essentially share and their mechanical class. What I'm wondering about is, what do you call the spiritual views of ur-priests, divorced from the class? St. Cuthbert has clerics, but many others worship him too: fighters, commoners, sorcerers, etc. All might be considered "St. Cuthbert worshippers," or one might even say "fighter of St. Cuthbert." Now, ur-priests are analogous to clerics within their religion, but what about someone who isn't an ur-priest (say, a rogue), but shares the same views -- hatred of the gods and their followers, respect for ur-priests, hopes for the destruction of religion, etc? Deicidists? Liberators? Maltheists? Sacreligionists? Knowers (of the Truth)? (Clearly, some are more likely to be only what they call themselves, and not what anyone else calls them)
Kiioro 01-26-08, 12:42 AM	Well, it's kind of difficult because an Ur-Priest knows that there are gods, but s/he despises them, granted. The Ur-Priest will steal divine magic from them, so they wouldn't want to kill their source of power, they just don't want to grovel to obtain their spells. It's more between the lines of "divine thieves" or something similar.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-27-08, 12:25 AM	An ur-priest is irreligious and impious. Theirs wouldn't be a religion per se, in fact they would despise the concept of a religious brotherhood or institution of their own. They would be iconoclasts and perhaps demagoguists. Extreme cases may even be termed as profanes.
JulesCARV 02-21-08, 05:58 PM	Okay, this is my homebrew take on ur-priests and pro-ur-priest types. This is based on the assumption that the general "creed" of ur-priests is shared by many people who aren't themselves ur-priests, much as the creed of Pelor is shared by many people who aren't clerics of Pelor. Some might disagree, of course, and see ur-priests as being more like rogues, wizards, etc -- masters of a technique, albeit an evil one, and nothing more: not leaders of some "creed" of roguishness or wizardliness. This is my idea on their organization, activities, views, etc. The Luminous Beacon Overview: "There is none more despised than a Lightbringer. Whether pious followers of the True Faith, infidel servants of false gods, or even those lost souls trapped in worship of the material world and indifferent to the spiritual, none can abide by the blasphemy of the Luminous Beacon -- yet still they survive, their madness driving them to untold ferocity, their stolen powers protecting them from the flails of our unholy warriors, and their sacreligious creed corrupting the minds of too many easily-beguiled young." -- Danomar Krall, Inquisitor of Hextor, in De Flagellum Hæreticorum The Luminous Beacon is a term used for many different, autonomous organizations. While there is no central leader or hierarchy among these groups, they all share certain things in common: these commonalities are not always enough to keep the different organizations of the Luminous Beacon on good terms with each other, but they do define a distinctive creed, strategy, and rhetoric. Members of the Luminous Beacon are known as Lightbringers. The Luminous Beacon is devoted to the destruction of all authority. The common alignment of Lightbringers and the Luminous Beacon in general is chaotic evil. They regard the deities as the foremost oppressors, and the most revered members of the Luminous Beacon are the ur-priests, who claim to derive their power by stealing it from the gods. However, since ur-priests are all level 6 or higher, they are comparatively rare, and although ur-priests are the spiritual leaders of the Luminous Beacon, most divine spellcasting or replacement equivalent divine spellcasting at the practical level is supplied by others (such as planar medium (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816375)-type clerics, archivists, artificers, etc). Since a common entry into ur-priest (at least among those who aspire to be ur-priests from an early time) involves bard levels (such as bard 4/crusader 1), ur-priests are often eloquent advocates of their cause in addition to being powerful mages. The Luminous Beacon is not confined to any particular part of the world: cells can be found throughout the world. Although they readily appropriate local conflicts into their appeal for tactical purposes their true aims are universal, and they view all local issues as potential fissures to exploit. Explorers who encounter distant civilizations often find that, in spite of having been out of contact for centuries, these civilizations too struggle with a local variant of the Luminous Beacon. Tactics: "The Temple of Pelor of the village of Clover Streams had been converted into an abattoir. To clarify, I say this not to evoke any lurid imagery, but rather to describe, concretely and unmetaphorically, the suspension of seventeen human corpses (eleven male, six female, estimated ages varying from four to ninety, mostly in their twenties to forties) upside-down on meat hooks, their throats slit and blood drained into large buckets, and in some cases their flesh cut away from their skeletons. Testimony by villagers indicates that these are the bodies of the boy, men, and women tried by Folk Courts and swiftly sentenced to execution, then processed into rations for the Luminous Beacon's forces: our unit's retaking of Clover Hills interrupted them in the process of butchering, salting, and packaging. Hopefully, their use of the corpses for this purpose indicates that this Luminous Beacon cell either lacks either sufficient spellcasting power or sufficient onyx for necromantic animation of corpses or that they are desperately short of provisions." -- Captain Abialu Kingudwe, CO of an Orono Tribal Militia Response Force, in Report of about 1630 Hours on 15.2.729 The tactics of the Luminous Beacon vary widely. Generally, though, one might speak of undercover urban cells, guerilla rural units, and legal fellow-travelling propogandists. The urban cells typically engage in acts of terrorism and assassination, attempting to kill or maim prominent local figures in politics, religion or business and their families, as well as to simply spread chaos, poisoning food and water sources, setting fires, and using explosive alchemical concoctions and magical items to blow up crowded markets. Some urban cells also have a penchant for using acid attacks intended to disfigure, rather than kill, their targets. Overall, these cells attempt to spread fear and doubt that the authorities can protect anyone, as well as straining the resources of those who attempt to maintain order, in the hopes that existing weaknesses will be magnified into a catastrophic breakdown of law and authority. The rural cells use somewhat more conventional military tactics. They often attempt to seize poorly defended villages. There, they set up Folk Courts, where they stage trials of local servants of the deities, authority figures and resisters, executing them for crimes such as "Collaborating in the Oppression of the People" and "Enforcing the Tyranny of the Gods." Supplies are seized for the Luminous Beacon cell, and temples of deities are sacked. Usually, rule by the Luminous Beacon is not sustained for long, as authorities or anti-Luminous Beacon adventurers drive them out. Rural Luminous Beacon forces swiftly retreat when faced with superior opposition, disappearing into the countryside. In some places, the Luminous Beacon does occupy locales over a protracted period, where no other authority exists or it is too weak to mount a counter-offensive. In such cases, the economy is converted into one based on the growing of illicit crops such as joy-poppy and nightwatcher's leaf, prostitution, slave-trading, and other high-profit areas, the profits flowing to the Luminous Beacon. Where extensive resistance to them forms, Luminous Beacon cells frequently use outright massacres as intimidating examples to those who would defy them. Severing the limbs of recalcitrant peasants is another common Lightbringer tactic. Lastly, the legal propagandists of the Luminous Beacon exist in areas where freedom of speech is regarded as a inviolable right, such as among the Thuilleiren elves. They claim no connection to the more violent, criminal cells -- and, given the decentralized nature of the Luminous Beacon, this claim has considerable credibility. Rather, they act to promote the cause of the Luminous Beacon. They publish tracts decrying the tyranny of the Gods, states, and churches, and they also present their own interpretation of events: sometimes blame for recent atrocities is transmitted from Luminous Beacon cells to the authorities, or sometimes the propagandists give the Luminous Beacon full credit for its acts, demonstrating its power. Droughts or floods are cited as divine cruelty. New actions by governments are portrayed in a sinister and oppressive light. Mythology and Propaganda: "The lords, the merchants, the priests -- they all define us by what we oppose: as enemies of order, as destroyers of faith. Yet when we look within our own hearts, we are guided not by what we oppose, but by the vision of the future we seek, calling to us like a luminous beacon: a future of freedom, equality, and democracy. We must walk the path to that wondrous future, and if the forces of hierarchy, privilege, and reaction throw obstacles in our way, then those obstacles must be cleared -- yet it is not any malice or hatred toward those who seek to stop us that motivates us, but the necessity of fighting these worthy battles if we are to step into the new era." -- Ur-Priest Osborn Redleaf, in a speech to his followers The Luminous Beacon portrays itself as a liberator of the masses and a friend of the poor and oppressed. It portrays property, religion, and the state as the "triangle of misery" which keeps most people poor, unfree, and unhappy. By destroying these three barriers, people will be free to discover their true identity as individuals in a utopian, anarchic state apart from the homogenizing, oppressive exploitation of society. Even the ruling classes are not free, although they may delude themselves that they are -- so long as they remain embedded in the hierarchical system of society, they are oppressed no less truly, if less dramatically, than the common folk. Although the Luminous Beacon claims to operate internally on the basis of freedom and equality, and not elevate any Lightbringer over any other, in truth most Luminous Beacon cells participate in a cult of personality around the most powerful current ur-priest of the Luminous Beacon, Osborn Redleaf (CE halfling cloistered cleric 2/ninja 3/ur-priest 7). Once a larcenous cleric of Olidammara, he claims to have gone through a spiritual crisis as he began to feel that Olidammara's hedonistic teachings were hollow and meaningless. He saw the hollowness of all gods in a flash of revelation, and joined the Luminous Beacon, dedicating himself to the cause of humanoidkind and its independence from the oppression of deities. Redleaf is a charismatic, eloquent speaker and a lucid, persuasive writer, his writings and transcripts of his speeches being among the most popular things to distribute in tracts and pamphlets among Luminous Beacon propagandists. The Luminous Beacon's mythology claims that in the distant past, a region of the world freed itself from divine and mortal oppression, becoming the first Free Realm. No gods were worshipped, no laws enforced, and no property owned. The ur-priests served as guides and mediators, allowing the people to live freely while ensuring peace and harmony throughout the land. The land prospered: the weather was wrested from the capricious will of cruel gods to serve the people. Disease was soon eradicated through a concerted effort by the ur-priests. Poverty and ignorance were vanishing. Murder, rape, cruelty, and deceit grew rarer and rarer, even without any state to enforce the law or priests to threaten the populace with divine retribution, as people, no longer divided by religion, class, or other factors grew to respect each other. However, the surrounding lands were dismayed by the Free Realm, as their serfs, slaves, and those fleeing religious persecution attempted to flee their oppressors for freedom. They demanded that the ur-priests (who they mistook as rulers of the Free Land, although in truth it had no rulers) turn back those fleeing their lands to their old masters. Moreover, the churches of the surrounding lands were dismayed by the Free Realm's antitheism. The surrounding lands sent envoys to negotiate, first making demands, then gradually taking a more conciliatory tone to make it appear that they had grown resigned to the existence of the Free Realm. Then, they launched a sneak attack on the unprepared folk of the Free Realm. The ur-priests hastily organized a defense, fortifying an area known as the Aldembia Hill (no one knows where this mythical hill is, if the myth of the Free Realm has any truth, but a number of speculations exist. Divinations have revealed nothing, as is so often the case with mythic events before the current epoch of history.). Meanwhile, the lords and churches of the surrounding lands put aside their differences and united to crush the realm, worshipers of Heironeous, Hextor, Olidammara, St. Cuthbert, Pelor, and Nerull all determined to fight in unison to crush the ur-priests. The ur-priests and their allies, magical and mundane warrior recruited from all over the Free Realm, were outnumbered thirty to one, yet they fought valiantly and courageously, determined not to let freedom die easily. Ultimately, however, they were betrayed from within, by a recent refugee from slavery, Galak, who offered to help defend the fort of Aldembia Hill, but secretly continued to worship his god. Their defenses were broken, yet they continued to fight their doomed last stand. The last defenders of the Free Realm all died in the Battle of Aldembia Hill, neither asking for nor being granted any quarter. However, the day after, a cleric of Boccob, Maryana, explored a library of the Free Realm. When she read accounts of the freedom and harmony, seeing the extensive documentation of this flourishing, peaceful society that she had helped destroy, she wept. However, studying the instructions of the ur-priests she found in that library, she rediscovered the path to becoming an ur-priest. Having once fought to destroy the ur-priests, she now renounced Boccob and sought to refound the tradition. This time, they would be secretive, and would be careful of those claiming to support them lest they be betrayed from within again. Maryana was guided in her dreams on her path to refounding the line of ur-priests by the souls of those who had given their lives on Aldembia Hill, who formed a luminous beacon that guided her to knowledge, thus founding the modern Luminous Beacon. The cells of the modern Luminous Beacon realize that they cannot afford to be as trusting or free as the Free Realm was, and oppressive measures such as the Folk Courts are justified as a temporary measure necessary to combat the gods and authorities on their own terms until the world can be set free. It is unknown how much of this myth, if any, is true; little has been discovered that would either prove or disprove its veracity. Glossary of the Luminous Beacon Aldembia Hill: Site of the mythical last stand of the defenders of the Free Realm; where Aldembia Hill is actually located, if anywhere, is a matter of dispute. Free Realm: An anarchic, antitheistic society that supposedly flourished in the distant past, crushed and betrayed by its oppressive, theistic neighbors. Galak: A former slave who fled to the Free Realm. He still worshipped his god, however, and betrayed his hosts after falsely volunteering to help defend Aldembia Hill. Lightbringer: A member of the Luminous Beacon. Most Lightbringers are not ur-priests (who are a tiny minority of the movement), but they usually look up to and revere ur-priests. Luminous Beacon: A broad term for a worldwide movement that espouses opposition and violent resistance to all forms of authority, divine and mortal. Maryana: The supposed first ur-priest after the fall of the Free Realm; a former cleric of Boccob who supposedly founded the current Luminous Beacon in the distant past. Osborn Redleaf: Currently the de facto leader and spokesman of the Luminous Beacon (CE halfling cloistered cleric 2/ninja 3/ur-priest 7). A highly charismatic and intelligent advocate of the Luminous Beacon, as well as a powerful spellcaster. Triangle of Misery: Property, the state, and religion: regarded as the three main causes of suffering among humanoids.
Xavon 02-21-08, 06:46 PM	Anti-theists. Militant anti-theists if they actively oppose gods and attempt to de-convert their followers.
Urithair 02-21-08, 08:06 PM	They share the views of the Athar. Taken from www.planewalker.com Whether they believe the powers to be a crutch that the weak lean on or a bunch of greedy beings that are just on a different sort of existence, the Athar are a faction that house both the worst atheists and the best theists of the planes. Both groups agree that the current 'powers' of the planes aren't the be-all and end-all of theological existance on the Planes. Some believe that there is something greater: a "Great Unknown" lies beyond mortal and paramortal comprehension. Others say that it's all a lie: nothing lies beyond what we can see and we should rely on our inner strength instead of putting ourselves into the hands of a false upper being. There are the bitter, there are the scholarly, and most of all there are the sort of "anti-preachers" that take to the streets of Sigil to declare the falseness of the powers. These "anti-preachers" are the most visible of the members of the Athar, as they are usually in the Lower Ward shouting out about the hypocrisy of the powers to all that would listen. They usually do their preaching near the Shattered Temple, which is their headquarters in Sigil. Quote from www.Mimir.net The Athar, also known as the Defiers or the Lost, are a faction with headquarters in the Shattered Temple in Sigil. After the Faction War they abandoned the City of Doors, relocating to the base of the Spire. Their current factol is Jaya Forlorn. Prior to the Faction War, Terrance led the faction. Sources The Factol's Manifesto Planewalker's Handbook Faction War PSCS releases Chapter 3
JulesCARV 02-21-08, 09:42 PM	Well, the Athar seem a bit too nice to be of the same sort as ur-priests, IMHO. They're not good guys on the whole, but they're not uniformly evil like ur-priests are. On the other hand, Googling site:gleemax.com lightbringer seems to reveal that the term "Lightbringer" might already be in use as something from Ravenloft.
LordofNightmares 02-27-08, 07:47 PM	Anti-theists. Militant anti-theists if they actively oppose gods and attempt to de-convert their followers. I was thinking that Antitheist would be a good term, but it doesn't roll of the tongue easily. How about something like Urthiests, it goes along with the Ur-priest name, rolls off th tongue easily and is different enough to know it means something other than Theist or Atheist. If need be one could BS some backstory where Ur has some special meaning in some old language about being the antithesis of something.
Space_Dragon 03-01-08, 01:35 AM	The Luminous Beacon ****ing win.
PrinceOfTheVoid 03-01-08, 04:33 PM	The Convocation of Execration The Anathema Ministry The Order of Theological Nihilism The Godless The Speakers of Akashic Blasphemy The Sons of Perdition The Saints of the Sublime Void The Congregation of the Unhallowed The Celebrants of Sacrilege
Awesome_Dude 03-01-08, 05:16 PM	Other people can come up with names for specific organizations, but what Ur-Priests stand for is called dystheism (related to misotheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism)).
The Ubbergeek 03-02-08, 12:55 AM	Luciferism? One form of Satanism, and if I got that well, its actually not unlike that.
Kain_Darkwind 03-02-08, 06:28 AM	Other people can come up with names for specific organizations, but what Ur-Priests stand for is called dystheism (related to misotheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism)). I actually think misotheism fits better than dysthesim. There is plenty of dystheism in DnD and any other polytheistic religion. Hextor, for example. Luciferism? One form of Satanism, and if I got that well, its actually not unlike that. Assuming that's a real term, it is horribly uninspired for a DnD game. Ur-Priests don't worship Lucifer (who exists in some DnD stories/worlds), they hate the gods in general. I'm not really sure what your second sentence means. Assuming it was a sentence.
The Ubbergeek 03-02-08, 12:16 PM	I means, the 'real' Satanism is more about the rebelion against god (and religion) than worshipping Satan per se - there is a good lot of them who are even atheists. It's kind of Nietzchism + Gnostism + a libertaire spirit.
Kain_Darkwind 03-02-08, 01:04 PM	I means, the 'real' Satanism is more about the rebelion against god (and religion) than worshipping Satan per se - there is a good lot of them who are even atheists. It's kind of Nietzchism + Gnostism + a libertaire spirit. Yes, I agree with that. But referring to the ur-priests ideas as Luciferism doesn't work very well in a DnD world. Makes it too tied to the devils, even if Lucifer doesn't exist as a devil in your campaign world. Of the made up names, I like Urtheism myself.
Awesome_Dude 03-02-08, 04:17 PM	I actually think misotheism fits better than dysthesim. There is plenty of dystheism in DnD and any other polytheistic religion. Hextor, for example. We'll use that term then. But describing Ur-Priests as secular humanists, though amusing in its own way, isn't the way to go.
Anodai 03-02-08, 07:25 PM	I know that some people call them atheists. They acknowledge the existence of gods, but given in D&D gods are so non-isolationist its really hard not to. They are probably the closest thing in some campaign
awaken_D_M_golem 03-05-08, 04:58 PM	It's kind of Nietzchism + Gnostism + a libertaire spirit. hmm ... Presuppose the necessity of the gods. Steal from them - an UrPriest's most specific work, mandatory of the class. A few might later theorize/regret, that the gods are a drug, and the Ur is a junkie. "I have to get my fix, or I'm dead." Crack-heads for Zeus. Not said with any humor or mirth.
JulesCARV 03-05-08, 06:14 PM	Hmm... looking at Complete Divine again, it looks like the canonical view of ur-priests is more like E'tii'stil Shadowsil's view than mine -- that ur-priests are just masters of the technique of stealing divine power, just as assassins are masters of the technique of killing, without either holding any sort of religious-like position. Ah well. Not that that can't be modified, I suppose.
Lincoln Hills 03-05-08, 07:29 PM	Like Urithair, I think the (un)theology of the Athar would appeal to the (anti)theology of the ur-priests. The two wouldn't necessarily be one and the same - but the original question of the thread was something like, "What are the followers of an ur-priest supposed to call themselves?" I guess the answer is that nobody follows an ur-priest because they believe him to be a source of spiritual peace or religious fulfillment. So the "religion" of the ur-priests doesn't have followers. Somebody in agreement with the ur-priest's violently anti-deity views would shudder at being asked what his 'religion' is. However, an ur-priest in lands where the Athar is active would probably have some common philosophies with that faction. And the Athar would probably not despise an ur-priest as they would a true cleric - although good-aligned Athar would soon find themselves falling out with their new ally. I can imagine a character who's both Athar and ur-priest quite easily.
Jaxgaret 03-08-08, 03:50 AM	I think that any discussion on aspects of the Ur-Priest has to answer this question: Why must they be Evil? Technically, they aren't required to be Evil - they're simply required to have Spell Focus (Evil) as a feat, which itself has a requirement of being Evil. Thus an Ur-Priest that does not retain its Evil alignment loses access to its Ur-Priest class features. Which basically boils down to: Ur-Priests must be Evil. So what prevents a Neutral character from becoming an Ur-Priest? There must be some reason for it, or else the requirement would not exist. Surely a Neutral character could conceivably have the desire to do a little divine-power-siphoning of their own. Some have posited that the Spell Focus (Evil) feat itself (its in-game manifestation specifically) is what the Ur-Priest uses to siphon divine energy. That is one possible avenue of explanation, but not one that I prefer. Another avenue of explanation, that I prefer for a few reasons, is that siphoning divine power from the gods in the manner that Ur-Priests do is a very, very bad thing to do, in and of itself. Why might this be? There can be several explanations. One might be, say... because the gods are responsible for the upkeep of the multiverse, and thus subsuming their energy directly is an attack on the multiverse itself. It may even be possible that, with enough Ur-adherents, the scales of multiversal balance will slide off the edge into the abyss, taking gods, man, and everything else with it. What could you call such persons actively attempting to bring about such an outcome? Annihilists.