Where to find Celestrial Bureaucracy? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Where to find Celestrial Bureaucracy? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ZerianTheKeeper
05-09-07, 01:43 PM Where can I find more Info about the Celestrial Bureaucracy? Is there any 3e info on it, or do I need to dig out my 2e books? I have a player that wants me to help him find it because it is metioned in the Players Guide to Faerun.
Naderion
05-09-07, 04:11 PM It's the religion of Kara-Tur, right? There has never been anything published about Kara-Tur or Zakara by Wizards for 3rd Ed.
sciborg2
05-09-07, 04:43 PM I think in 2e (and 1e MotP iirc) the Celestial (Jade?) Emperor is on Mechanus. It was mentioned in the 2e Pre-PS Monstrous Compendium that the planes under the Celestial Bureucracy viewpoint is different, that the "map" of the planes is seen as the Jade Emperor controlling the gods on other planes.

In PS's On Hallowed Ground, Shang-ti's realm is on Mechanus in the geometrically perfect Jade Palace. He only likes working with Primus.

In FC I, Ma Yuan of D&D fame (the godkiller) who we've never found an RL source for related to China is trapped in one of the Black Wells of the Abyss.
Deacon Liadon
05-09-07, 04:55 PM You'll probably need to dig out On Hallowed Ground to find info on the Celetial Bureaucracy. All I can remember about it off the top of my head s that the Bureaucracy itself is situated in the Outlands.
sciborg2
05-09-07, 05:15 PM I think you're right, that the bureaucracy is a transit realm for souls in the Outlands. The bureaucracy itself is interesting, with mortals worshipping gods who worship Shang-Ti the Emperor. Then he in turn takes this enormous power and pours it back into his followers.
ripvanwormer
05-09-07, 06:59 PM I think you're right, that the bureaucracy is a transit realm for souls in the Outlands.

No, that's not right. The Palace of Judgment is in the Outlands.

The Celestial Bureaucracy is the much vaster series of ministries headed by the Celestial Emperor, Shang-ti. The ministry of souls is only one of these - there are also ministries of fire, water, earth, metal, thunder, animals, and even a ministry just for planar adventurers. I've barely scratched the surface. Here are some of the gods in the Bureaucracy (http://planewalker.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia.php?intEntryID=908). Note, for example, that the Minister of Thunder is Wen Chung. At the lower levels of the bureaucracy are the lung dragons, the Ch'eng Huang, and various nature spirits and oni.

Some useful information on the Celestial Bureaucracy can be gleaned from the various 1e Oriental Adventures modules on the Previous Editions Downloads (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads) page (the ones labeled OA5, OA6, and OA7).

Also note that the Kara-Turan pantheon isn't exactly the same as the Chinese pantheon.
Gray Richardson
05-09-07, 09:18 PM There is only a smattering of information in the Players Guide to Faerun, in the 3e cosmology, Kara-Tur uses the Spirit World plane from Manual of the Planes and all the divine realms of Kara-Tur's gods are attached to the Spirit World by portals or links of some kind.

I would dearly love to see them do a Kara-Tur sourcebook for 3e (or even 4e at the rate we are going).
Lord Karsus
05-10-07, 01:13 PM You'll probably need to dig out On Hallowed Ground to find info on the Celetial Bureaucracy. All I can remember about it off the top of my head s that the Bureaucracy itself is situated in the Outlands.

-On Hallowed Ground talks about the Reclusive Pantheon, not the Celestial Bureaucracy.
ripvanwormer
05-10-07, 01:18 PM -On Hallowed Ground talks about the Reclusive Pantheon, not the Celestial Bureaucracy.

The Chinese Pantheon is also referred to as the Celestial Bureaucracy (in 2e Legends & Lore) so yes, On Hallowed Ground is a legitimate source.

The Kara-Turan pantheon is also referred to as the Celestial Bureaucracy. Some of the gods of Kara-Tur are inspired by Chinese gods, but aren't exactly the same.
Lord Karsus
05-10-07, 01:21 PM The Chinese Pantheon is also referred to as the Celestial Bureaucracy (in 2e Legends & Lore) so yes, On Hallowed Ground is a legitimate source.

-Really? Hm. Now, that is going to cause a lot of problems, especially since:

Some of the gods of Kara-Tur are inspired by Chinese gods, but aren't exactly the same.

-Basically, what we have here is some bad A /= B, B /= C, so A/=C.

-Just another Kara-Tur mess...:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63
05-10-07, 02:19 PM Not really, since in 3e FR has its own seperate cosmology.

I picture the Celestial Bureaucracy being a seperate Divine Realm (with deep connections to the Spirit World) in 3e FR. It simply hasn't been mentioned yet because the eastern lands have not been covered. Also, I'm doing my own piece on the Bureaucracy, which hopefully will be done soon; heres an excerpt -

I have it where some 'Great Caatastrophe' (WSE) happened on the original world, where the Celestial Bureaucracy was the ONLY pantheon, and the Emperor was THE Overgod. Some cosmic 'enemy' of the emperor nearly destroyed that world, and the Emperor decided he never wanted to come that close to loosing his followers again, so he devided his essence into eight seperate manifestations, to represent the eight directions of the winds, and sent them forth, each leading a tribe of his people to a 'new home' (other prime world). This would explain why so many worlds have a race of people called 'Oriental' by some. Some scholars believe that the 'core essence' of the Celestial Emperor' stayed behind, greatly reduced in power, and hid away a small portion of his followers. He kept that secret so that his primordial nemesis would not come back for them. It is said, that somewhere in the cosmos, he has rebuilt both his power and his people, but that is pure conjecture. :cool:

In FR GHotR (coming soon), Brian James has the Celestial Dragon T'ien Lung leading a group of Lung (Oriental) people to Toril. This is one of the Manifestaions of the Celestial Emperor, and before he was allowed to enter with his people he first had to ask permission of Ao (and make certain deals with him). As for the other manifestations - at least one was named Shang-ti and traveled to a little-known world called 'earth'. ;)

This explains several things, and I would say that the Bureaucracy located on the Outer Planes is the original. Over the yeras, all the little 'spin-off' bureaucracies have evolved in different directions, hence the various name changes and what-not.

I would dearly love to see them do a Kara-Tur sourcebook for 3e (or even 4e at the rate we are going).Wouldn't we all. :cloud9:
Lord Karsus
05-10-07, 04:42 PM Not really, since in 3e FR has its own seperate cosmology.

-To the Nine Hells with everyone and their seperate cosmologies!
MarkusTay63
05-10-07, 05:44 PM Actually, Baator is already connected to Toril's Cosmology. :P

Besides, didn't you a least appreciate the fact that I was able to reconcile both? ;)
Lord Karsus
05-10-07, 06:26 PM Besides, didn't you a least appreciate the fact that I was able to reconcile both? ;)

-Yes, and no. I like the idea that all "Oriental" deities and peoples originate from the same place, but at the same time, I don't. I think it needs a little time to grow on me.
MarkusTay63
05-11-07, 09:01 AM Like a fungus? :eek:

You're just a tree-hater... ;)

I used to be, but I've gone over to the dark side.
RequiemOfReason
05-19-07, 08:44 PM Actually, Baator is already connected to Toril's Cosmology. :P

The FR cosmology also has an Abyss... but the Demonweb Pits are a seperate plane. Go figure.
XHereticX
05-25-07, 11:50 PM In core, Mechanus.

In FR, the spirit world.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZerianTheKeeper 05-09-07, 01:43 PM	Where can I find more Info about the Celestrial Bureaucracy? Is there any 3e info on it, or do I need to dig out my 2e books? I have a player that wants me to help him find it because it is metioned in the Players Guide to Faerun.
Naderion 05-09-07, 04:11 PM	It's the religion of Kara-Tur, right? There has never been anything published about Kara-Tur or Zakara by Wizards for 3rd Ed.
sciborg2 05-09-07, 04:43 PM	I think in 2e (and 1e MotP iirc) the Celestial (Jade?) Emperor is on Mechanus. It was mentioned in the 2e Pre-PS Monstrous Compendium that the planes under the Celestial Bureucracy viewpoint is different, that the "map" of the planes is seen as the Jade Emperor controlling the gods on other planes. In PS's On Hallowed Ground, Shang-ti's realm is on Mechanus in the geometrically perfect Jade Palace. He only likes working with Primus. In FC I, Ma Yuan of D&D fame (the godkiller) who we've never found an RL source for related to China is trapped in one of the Black Wells of the Abyss.
Deacon Liadon 05-09-07, 04:55 PM	You'll probably need to dig out On Hallowed Ground to find info on the Celetial Bureaucracy. All I can remember about it off the top of my head s that the Bureaucracy itself is situated in the Outlands.
sciborg2 05-09-07, 05:15 PM	I think you're right, that the bureaucracy is a transit realm for souls in the Outlands. The bureaucracy itself is interesting, with mortals worshipping gods who worship Shang-Ti the Emperor. Then he in turn takes this enormous power and pours it back into his followers.
ripvanwormer 05-09-07, 06:59 PM	I think you're right, that the bureaucracy is a transit realm for souls in the Outlands. No, that's not right. The Palace of Judgment is in the Outlands. The Celestial Bureaucracy is the much vaster series of ministries headed by the Celestial Emperor, Shang-ti. The ministry of souls is only one of these - there are also ministries of fire, water, earth, metal, thunder, animals, and even a ministry just for planar adventurers. I've barely scratched the surface. Here are some of the gods in the Bureaucracy (http://planewalker.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia.php?intEntryID=908). Note, for example, that the Minister of Thunder is Wen Chung. At the lower levels of the bureaucracy are the lung dragons, the Ch'eng Huang, and various nature spirits and oni. Some useful information on the Celestial Bureaucracy can be gleaned from the various 1e Oriental Adventures modules on the Previous Editions Downloads (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads) page (the ones labeled OA5, OA6, and OA7). Also note that the Kara-Turan pantheon isn't exactly the same as the Chinese pantheon.
Gray Richardson 05-09-07, 09:18 PM	There is only a smattering of information in the Players Guide to Faerun, in the 3e cosmology, Kara-Tur uses the Spirit World plane from Manual of the Planes and all the divine realms of Kara-Tur's gods are attached to the Spirit World by portals or links of some kind. I would dearly love to see them do a Kara-Tur sourcebook for 3e (or even 4e at the rate we are going).
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 01:13 PM	You'll probably need to dig out On Hallowed Ground to find info on the Celetial Bureaucracy. All I can remember about it off the top of my head s that the Bureaucracy itself is situated in the Outlands. -On Hallowed Ground talks about the Reclusive Pantheon, not the Celestial Bureaucracy.
ripvanwormer 05-10-07, 01:18 PM	-On Hallowed Ground talks about the Reclusive Pantheon, not the Celestial Bureaucracy. The Chinese Pantheon is also referred to as the Celestial Bureaucracy (in 2e Legends & Lore) so yes, On Hallowed Ground is a legitimate source. The Kara-Turan pantheon is also referred to as the Celestial Bureaucracy. Some of the gods of Kara-Tur are inspired by Chinese gods, but aren't exactly the same.
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 01:21 PM	The Chinese Pantheon is also referred to as the Celestial Bureaucracy (in 2e Legends & Lore) so yes, On Hallowed Ground is a legitimate source. -Really? Hm. Now, that is going to cause a lot of problems, especially since: Some of the gods of Kara-Tur are inspired by Chinese gods, but aren't exactly the same. -Basically, what we have here is some bad A /= B, B /= C, so A/=C. -Just another Kara-Tur mess...:rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 05-10-07, 02:19 PM	Not really, since in 3e FR has its own seperate cosmology. I picture the Celestial Bureaucracy being a seperate Divine Realm (with deep connections to the Spirit World) in 3e FR. It simply hasn't been mentioned yet because the eastern lands have not been covered. Also, I'm doing my own piece on the Bureaucracy, which hopefully will be done soon; heres an excerpt - I have it where some 'Great Caatastrophe' (WSE) happened on the original world, where the Celestial Bureaucracy was the ONLY pantheon, and the Emperor was THE Overgod. Some cosmic 'enemy' of the emperor nearly destroyed that world, and the Emperor decided he never wanted to come that close to loosing his followers again, so he devided his essence into eight seperate manifestations, to represent the eight directions of the winds, and sent them forth, each leading a tribe of his people to a 'new home' (other prime world). This would explain why so many worlds have a race of people called 'Oriental' by some. Some scholars believe that the 'core essence' of the Celestial Emperor' stayed behind, greatly reduced in power, and hid away a small portion of his followers. He kept that secret so that his primordial nemesis would not come back for them. It is said, that somewhere in the cosmos, he has rebuilt both his power and his people, but that is pure conjecture. :cool: In FR GHotR (coming soon), Brian James has the Celestial Dragon T'ien Lung leading a group of Lung (Oriental) people to Toril. This is one of the Manifestaions of the Celestial Emperor, and before he was allowed to enter with his people he first had to ask permission of Ao (and make certain deals with him). As for the other manifestations - at least one was named Shang-ti and traveled to a little-known world called 'earth'. ;) This explains several things, and I would say that the Bureaucracy located on the Outer Planes is the original. Over the yeras, all the little 'spin-off' bureaucracies have evolved in different directions, hence the various name changes and what-not. I would dearly love to see them do a Kara-Tur sourcebook for 3e (or even 4e at the rate we are going).Wouldn't we all. :cloud9:
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 04:42 PM	Not really, since in 3e FR has its own seperate cosmology. -To the Nine Hells with everyone and their seperate cosmologies!
MarkusTay63 05-10-07, 05:44 PM	Actually, Baator is already connected to Toril's Cosmology. :P Besides, didn't you a least appreciate the fact that I was able to reconcile both? ;)
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 06:26 PM	Besides, didn't you a least appreciate the fact that I was able to reconcile both? ;) -Yes, and no. I like the idea that all "Oriental" deities and peoples originate from the same place, but at the same time, I don't. I think it needs a little time to grow on me.
MarkusTay63 05-11-07, 09:01 AM	Like a fungus? :eek: You're just a tree-hater... ;) I used to be, but I've gone over to the dark side.
RequiemOfReason 05-19-07, 08:44 PM	Actually, Baator is already connected to Toril's Cosmology. :P The FR cosmology also has an Abyss... but the Demonweb Pits are a seperate plane. Go figure.
XHereticX 05-25-07, 11:50 PM	In core, Mechanus. In FR, the spirit world.