Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ye' Cind 07-23-07, 03:58 AM	The philosophy, or the god? The time has come to discuss this issue. It is my belief that the so-called "gods" of DnD may very well be innovated personalizations of pre-exiting abstract forces or philosophies. For example, the philosophies of "law" , "good", "chaos" and "evil", must pre-date the gods. When the intelligent races started becoming aware of these forces and philosophies, and evolved into societies, it became necessary to have gods in order to spread awareness about these concepts. It's therefore conceivable that new gods are bound to be 'born' whenever a new philosophy gains ground, or a new force is discovered in the universe. I think Gods should be viewed as but the ultimate champions of the philosophies or forces they represent. Hence they all must have been - at some point- mortals who accended into the positions of godhood. Hence gods can kill and overtake each other, but the abstract concepts they represent remain unchanged. For example, let's take Obad-Hai as the god of nature, and examine the relation between his clerics, and the druids. Nature, as a force, existed before Obad-Hai came to be. This explains how druids get their powers straight from nature, without the need of a nature deity. Obad-Hai is a product of society realizing the importance of nature and of living in harmony with it. This is why the job of a cleric is to preach, in a society, about the importance of nature and of preserving and protecting it. Although druids respect the god of nature, they do not need him to gain their powers. In fact, it is even understandable that some may look upon clerics of Obad-Hai as inovations, and products of civil societies. Regardless, No druid will permit himslef to actually worship Obad-Hai. The PhB, when describing clerics as a player class, states that they sometimes biquer with druids since the latter represent an older and more primal relation between mortals and the divine. This proves that nature , as a force, existed before Obad-Hai came to be. Obad - Hai is nothing but a very powerful champion - an epic cleric/druid- who must have been a mortal at one time.. The same can be said of Boccob, the god of magic. Magic, as an arcane force, existed before Boccob. This is why wizards and sorcerers have access to arcane power without the need to actually worship Boccob. This is because they have access to the arcane as a raw force in the universe, irrespective of the deity representing it, or the clerics of this deity who preach about its importance in society. Conclusion: There is no such thing as "innate divinity". Gods are nothing but ultra-ubber entities who have stats (AC, saving throws, attacks and damage) and who were once ordinary heroes or mortals. The only true god would be the Overdeity (such as Ao, in the FR setting). Any thoughts?
Khadmus 07-23-07, 08:02 AM	The philosophy, or the god? The time has come to discuss this issue. It is my belief that the so-called "gods" of DnD may very well be innovated personalizations of pre-exiting abstract forces or philosophies. For example, the philosophies of "law" , "good", "chaos" and "evil", must pre-date the gods. When the intelligent races started becoming aware of these forces and philosophies, and evolved into societies, it became necessary to have gods in order to spread awareness about these concepts. It's therefore conceivable that new gods are bound to be 'born' whenever a new philosophy gains ground, or a new force is discovered in the universe. I think Gods should be viewed as but the ultimate champions of the philosophies or forces they represent. Hence they all must have been - at some point- mortals who accended into the positions of godhood. Hence gods can kill and overtake each other, but the abstract concepts they represent remain unchanged. For example, let's take Obad-Hai as the god of nature, and examine the relation between his clerics, and the druids. Nature, as a force, existed before Obad-Hai came to be. This explains how druids get their powers straight from nature, without the need of a nature deity. Obad-Hai is a product of society realizing the importance of nature and of living in harmony with it. This is why the job of a cleric is to preach, in a society, about the importance of nature and of preserving and protecting it. Although druids respect the god of nature, they do not need him to gain their powers. In fact, it is even understandable that some may look upon clerics of Obad-Hai as inovations, and products of civil societies. Regardless, No druid will permit himslef to actually worship Obad-Hai. The PhB, when describing clerics as a player class, states that they sometimes biquer with druids since the latter represent an older and more primal relation between mortals and the divine. This proves that nature , as a force, existed before Obad-Hai came to be. Obad - Hai is nothing but a very powerful champion - an epic cleric/druid- who must have been a mortal at one time.. The same can be said of Boccob, the god of magic. Magic, as an arcane force, existed before Boccob. This is why wizards and sorcerers have access to arcane power without the need to actually worship Boccob. This is because they have access to the arcane as a raw force in the universe, irrespective of the deity representing it, or the clerics of this deity who preach about its importance in society. Conclusion: There is no such thing as "innate divinity". Gods are nothing but ultra-ubber entities who have stats (AC, saving throws, attacks and damage) and who were once ordinary heroes or mortals. The only true god would be the Overdeity (such as Ao, in the FR setting). Any thoughts? I agree with the bolded parts, disagree with the underlined parts, have mixed feelings about the bolded & underlined parts, and have no feelings about the unmarked parts. I disagree mainly because I heard somewhere that only 1 god was once mortal, and that I heard that minor LE gods spontaneously form in Baator.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-23-07, 09:48 AM	Gods are relatively young compared to the multivese and the abstract concepts that exist within it. The very first gods would have formed spontaneously from the faith of their first worshippers once there was some undefined threshold met. Of course once gods did form in this way, those gods were then free to elevate mortals to godhood, create new races to worship them, and even create more gods among themselves. Ultimately though, the first deities came historically late, and they don't represent bedrock concepts of reality, they represent mortal interpretations of those concepts (which may or may not necessarily resemble the actual concept in its most basic or raw forms). Overgods are tricky, mostly because so little is known about them. Of those known however, they seem to be personifications of specific worlds/solar systems/crystal spheres, having formed at roughly the same time those worlds did. I wouldn't define them as being any more "true" than the gods who later formed from mortal belief.
Ye' Cind 07-23-07, 10:23 AM	Myself wrote: Regardless, No druid will permit himslef to actually worship Obad-Hai. Khadmus wrote: ....disagree with the underlined parts,... OK let us discuss why you disagree. We have established that a druid "worships" nature itself, not the god of nature. Hence the source of the druid's power is nature as a primal force, which exists independant of the nature deity. If the druid were to worship the god of nature, then he becomes a cleric by default. Or else, how on earth can you distinguish between the two classes?? :banghead: Why would a wizard need to "worship" Boccob, if he /she doesn't need him to gain her spells?? (whereas a cleric certainly needs to worship him to gain access to his domain spells). Shemeska wrote: Ultimately though, the first deities came historically late, and they don't represent bedrock concepts of reality, they represent mortal interpretations of those concepts Exactly!!:) THat was my point all along. Mortal interpretations. That is where the cleric's role comes into play. Clerics are preachers by nature. They preach to their societies about their philosophies and work to uphold them. Druids are loners who care nothing about society, and are perfectly happy living in the wild places , away from cities. They may respect the god of nature and his teachings, but they do not worship him.
DrMorganes 07-23-07, 10:45 AM	Gods are relatively young compared to the multivese and the abstract concepts that exist within it. The very first gods would have formed spontaneously from the faith of their first worshippers once there was some undefined threshold met. Of course once gods did form in this way, those gods were then free to elevate mortals to godhood, create new races to worship them, and even create more gods among themselves. Ultimately though, the first deities came historically late, and they don't represent bedrock concepts of reality, they represent mortal interpretations of those concepts (which may or may not necessarily resemble the actual concept in its most basic or raw forms). Overgods are tricky, mostly because so little is known about them. Of those known however, they seem to be personifications of specific worlds/solar systems/crystal spheres, having formed at roughly the same time those worlds did. I wouldn't define them as being any more "true" than the gods who later formed from mortal belief. /agree Kwll told Corum at the end of the Swords trilogy (after slaying both the Lords of Chaos AND the Lords of Law), "New gods can always be created." White Wolf's Changeling: The Dreaming deals quite a lot with the impact of belief on reality. Fascinating stuff, though I'd need to bone up on it again before trying to speak intelligently about it.
vegetalss4 07-23-07, 11:06 AM	i disagree with the no druid will worship oda-hai part to. some of them worship him but they do not get thier power from him. to say that no druid would worship oda-hai because he does not grant them thier powers, would be tha same as to say that no rouges would whorship olidammara because he do not grant them thier powers or no fighters kord or hextor or whatever because when the end come to it the only (core) class that gets its power from the gods is the clerics but clerics is not the only one who worship dieties. that is my oppinion.
caeruleus 07-23-07, 12:23 PM	Well, it depends on the campaign setting, doesn't it? If the druid were to worship the god of nature, then he becomes a cleric by default. Or else, how on earth can you distinguish between the two classes?? :banghead: Class features is what distinguishes the two classes. Note that in the Forgotten Realms, all divine spellcasters, including druids, need a patron deity in order to be granted spells. Why would a wizard need to "worship" Boccob, if he /she doesn't need him to gain her spells?? (whereas a cleric certainly needs to worship him to gain access to his domain spells). That may be the case for Boccob in the World of Greyhawk, but the casting of wizardly spells in the Dragonlance setting is considered an act of worship of one of the three gods of magic. Having said that, I believe that the Planescape setting works the way Shemeska describes.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-23-07, 01:04 PM	Note that in the Forgotten Realms, all divine spellcasters, including druids, need a patron deity in order to be granted spells. .... That may be the case for Boccob in the World of Greyhawk, but the casting of wizardly spells in the Dragonlance setting is considered an act of worship of one of the three gods of magic. Both instances are true, and the local rules of magic can be twisted and locally redefined on individual worlds/planets by the gods or other powers that be. However once you leave Toril for instance, you're no longer beholden to those rules and you're no longer dependant on divine magic being granted to you by a specific patron deity. Likewise on Krynn you might need to nominally worship one of the 3 moon/3 gods of magic of Krynn to have arcane magic, but the moment you leave Krynn for the planes at large or even some other world on the prime material, you're no longer confined by the decree of Krynn's gods so far as magic goes. Other settings that are entirely divorced from and were never part of the Great Wheel / D&D multiverse can and will differ dramatically from anything I've said of course.
caeruleus 07-23-07, 02:29 PM	Other settings that are entirely divorced from and were never part of the Great Wheel / D&D multiverse can and will differ dramatically from anything I've said of course. Which is just what I was saying, since both FR and DL have their own cosmologies now. I know lots of Realms fans prefer the Great Wheel (I'm ambivalent about that myself), but I think Krynn works much better with its own cosmology. Aside from that, though, I agree that while individual worlds may have certain rules, the Great Wheel cosmology has Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil pre-existing the deities. But that raises other questions. While alignments came before deities in Planescape, what about other concepts, such as Nature?
Kursk 07-23-07, 02:43 PM	Conclusion: There is no such thing as "innate divinity". Gods are nothing but ultra-ubber entities who have stats (AC, saving throws, attacks and damage) and who were once ordinary heroes or mortals. The only true god would be the Overdeity (such as Ao, in the FR setting). Any thoughts? Your "conclusion" will vary by campaign and therefore, there can be no overarching constant.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-23-07, 02:43 PM	Which is just what I was saying, since both FR and DL have their own cosmologies now. I was referring to Ebberon and then also to 3rd party settings actually, not FR or DL. Those latter two were part of the Great Wheel since they first saw print, and depending on what author is writing a particular book, they still are. ;)
caeruleus 07-23-07, 02:57 PM	I was referring to Ebberon and then also to 3rd party settings actually, not FR or DL. Those latter two were part of the Great Wheel since they first saw print, and depending on what author is writing a particular book, they still are. ;) Or depending on which person is writing a particular post in this thread. ;)
Ornum 07-23-07, 05:52 PM	For the record, the 3.5 PHB specifically states that a druid gains his or her magical powers from either the force of nature, or from a nature deity. So even in the default Greyhawk setting, a druid could worship either Ehlonna or Obad-hai and gain their class abilities directly from one of those two gods. The best way to differentiate between the cleric and a druid of those two gods is this: A cleric would be more apt to try and spread the faith of his or her god and teach the general populace to only take what one needs from nature, while a druid would be less likely to actually spread such ideals and would instead spend more time out in nature protecting it directly.
caeruleus 07-23-07, 06:28 PM	Incidentally, you may be interested in reading Plato's Euthyphro, for an argument that piety (or "morality", depending on the translation) is something independent of the gods. (Or perhaps just read a commentary of it, if you like.) You can even use this in a campaign that uses The Academy (see Deities and Demigods, p. 132), which is based on Plato's Academy.
TheAnthroDM 07-23-07, 09:08 PM	[Deleted]