Post/Author/DateTime	Post
maddog0714 09-10-07, 04:45 PM	how is it that in the deities and demigods handbook that lolth has a divine rank of 15, and demogorgon has none?
RealSorceror 09-10-07, 04:47 PM	Becuase Lolth is a god and Demogorgon is not... What where you expecting? Lolth has always been a goddess. Demogorgon is just a really big crazy demon. Very few mortals actually worship him.
Mirtek 09-10-07, 04:49 PM	Even during 2e, when Demogorgon (and Orcus, Yeenoghu, Juiblex) were deities, he was only a lesser deity while Lolth was an intermediate deity.
Witch 09-10-07, 04:55 PM	What where you expecting? Lolth has always been a goddess. No, she hasn't. She wasn't one in First Edition, to my knowledge.
RealSorceror 09-10-07, 04:58 PM	No, she hasn't. Not in First Edition. I don't even think I was born yet. Besides, the OP assumes 3rd edition, so I'm going with 3rd edition.
Lobsopdoy 09-10-07, 05:32 PM	The important thing is that Demogorgon could totally take Lolth, and he's cooler. The IMPORTANT THING :mad:
The Serge7 09-10-07, 06:40 PM	In 1ed, both Demogorgon and Lolth were demon princes. Demogorgon was by far the strongest (and, as James Jacobs has said on a number of occassion, the highest hp in the original MM) while Lolth was quite nasty (with three heals to make up for her low hps). When the original Deities and Demigods were released, both Demogorgon and Lolth were also considered lesser gods, with the Prince of Demons still quite a bit stronger than the Queen of the Demonweb Pits. Then 2ed rolled on in on the tails of the tremendous success of drow as an alternative race, in part due to the Driz'zt novels. Simultaneously, demons and devils disappeared from D&D to be replaced by tanar'ri and baatezu respectively. Lolth, in large part due to drow popularity (and possibly to create a distinction between "demons" and gods), was suddenly an intermediate god (she was not, however, necessarily formerly part of the Seldarine). Demogorgon, along with most of the classic demon princes (save Graz'zt and Pazuzu), remained a lesser god and was barely stronger than most of the demon princes he used to be able to stomp all over. However, Lolth as goddess was solidified.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-10-07, 08:44 PM	Becuase Lolth is a god and Demogorgon is not... What where you expecting? Lolth has always been a goddess. Demogorgon is just a really big crazy demon. Very few mortals actually worship him. Most of one entire race worships him, whose name I won't even attempt to spell (the vampire fishies starting with an X). Demogorgon might not have a formal divine rank, but formal divine ranks ceases to have meaning in the power dynamics on the lower planes versus power dynamics between gods on the prime material. 1) Demogorgon predates Lolth in terms of origin on the planes. He's one of the first tanar'ri to have formed spontaneously from the Abyss. 2) Lolth has been in the Abyss roughly 30k years, Demogorgon significantly longer. 3) As a non-fiend goddess, she doesn't have the same innate connection to the plane as he does. On home ground, with the potential exception of her claimed layer of the Abyss itself, she's at a severe disadvantage. Currently she's fighting a strongly defensive, uphill battle against Demogorgon and Zuggtmoy in the aftermath of Lolth's hefty failures in the 3.5 module Expedition to the Demonwebpits. 4) We also have the metagame angle to consider. Demogorgon was also a deity alongside his archfiend status in 1e and 2e, but 3e retroactively removed the divinity of archfiends and only late in the edition finally addressed the issue (to an extent) of why gods aren't ruling the lower planes despite the archfiends not having divine rank themselves. Demogorgon doesn't need to be a god to have the power to equal a god (and that sums up the situation nicely).
Orodruin 09-10-07, 09:34 PM	No, she hasn't. She wasn't one in First Edition, to my knowledge. Nope. She always was. It said so in her very first entry in the Fiend Folio and in Deities and Demigods she was given the full deity stat-bloc treatment. She also had a couple more assigned to her in Queen of the Demonweb Pits as a deity of the Greyhawk pantheon (though the "Greyhawk deity" abilities were later added to the list of standard divine abilities when Manual of the Planes came out.)
Mula 09-11-07, 12:51 AM	Most of one entire race worships him, whose name I won't even attempt to spell (the vampire fishies starting with an X).Ixitxachitl? (I didn't look that up, so if the spelling's right, yay for me.)
Fiery_Overlord 09-11-07, 04:54 AM	OH!! I HAVE A BETTER QUESTION!!! Why does Vecna have Divine ranks and demogorgon doesnt? Seriously??? Some punk know-nothing little lich from a single prime material plane with a minor megalomania complex achieves deity-hood faster than a titanically powerful being with followers through out the cosmos of prime material planes and who starts off with a whole plane of existence* under its control??? * (each layer of the Abyss is its own plane which is why you need portals to reach them or plane shift)
Kamin_Majere 09-11-07, 03:17 PM	Why would demogorgon need to be a god? Hes already a very powerful Cosmic entity. He gets to keep all of his power with out haveing to deal with mortals... plus being as totally f'ing crazy as demogorgon is, i would honestly fear for all of creation if he somehow got a divine rank to match his demonic powers:weep:
pratputajao 09-11-07, 06:12 PM	Quite simply looks to me that the writters of 3ed liked Lolth becouse she is in with the cool drow....how could she NOT be a god? cmon! Demogorgon is a crazy ass demon who looks really wierd, why would we want him to be a God? Seriously though this seems to be true- Lolth is still a god becouse she was a god of the Drow plain and simple. Note that Asmodeus has now ascended (4ed reportadly) Demogorgon will remain the same, though probabaly not Prince of demons anymore. Hell I have heard they may even take him out of the game.. Demogorgon and Orcus are the oldest fiends in the game going back to eldrich witchery and were even included in regular DnD (as opposed to ADnD, AKA 1st ed). Demogorgon was a She in DnD but extreemly powerful- 4 hits and you died reguardless of HP, even immortals (Dieties in DnD) would be destroyed with 4 tenticle hits. Arch fiends in 3e remain relitively weak so that PCs could kill them plain and simple. Lolth and, it seems, Asmodeus are above PCs now, (or soon in the case of Asmo) Wasnt Demogorgon able to be destroyed by PCs in a module lately? And people believe this sillyness that Demogorgon equals the power of a Diety becouse of his "conection to the abyss" as a Demon lord?...though he is remains able to be killed by non epic PCs?....yeah right....and how many Modules are there where you destroy a god? Other than being able to manipulate his layer in a few ways HOW is he more powerful in the Abyss than outside it? One of my Pet pieves with the New rules (writters actually) is how arch fiend were reduced in power. Demogorgon and Yeenaghu ( I think Baphomet and Jueblex too, I think) were Victims of this particularly bad becouse they were Dieties of entire races. They just threw that out the window so that they were killible by PCs.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-11-07, 06:38 PM	Wasnt Demogorgon able to be destroyed by PCs in a module lately? And people believe this sillyness that Demogorgon equals the power of a Diety becouse of his "conection to the abyss" as a Demon lord?...though he is remains able to be killed by non epic PCs?....yeah right....and how many Modules are there where you destroy a god? Other than being able to manipulate his layer in a few ways HOW is he more powerful in the Abyss than outside it? In theory yes, involving a bunch of steps to marshall his enemies, distract him, turn his personalities against one another, and sap his power through various other ways. One method ends up having him and Orcus going at one another, etc. If everything goes perfectly, you have PCs fighting a CR 20something Demogorgon, or if not, something quite stronger. Well for starters the Age of Worms adventure path has the god Kyuss fighting PCs at its conclusion. Beyond that I can think of several modules where gods died, not always at the hands of other immortal beings either. In fact I can think of more gods that have died violent or ignonymous deaths in D&D lore than archfiends who have died. And actually, the "sillyness" about archfiends' connections to their respective planes' being equivalent to deific power (or situationally greater than it) has appeared in 3.x. You'll find a divergent point of view however between different writers on just how to handle the god/archfiend dichotomy, their stats, etc. And w/ respect to Demogorgon's power in the Abyss, for starters he indirectly killed an entire pantheon of gods by causing the Abyss to lash out, entrap, and digest them. I can think of other things beyond that.
pratputajao 09-11-07, 08:04 PM	In theory yes, involving a bunch of steps to marshall his enemies, distract him, turn his personalities against one another, and sap his power through various other ways. One method ends up having him and Orcus going at one another, etc. If everything goes perfectly, you have PCs fighting a CR 20something Demogorgon, or if not, something quite stronger. Well for starters the Age of Worms adventure path has the god Kyuss fighting PCs at its conclusion. Beyond that I can think of several modules where gods died, not always at the hands of other immortal beings either. In fact I can think of more gods that have died violent or ignonymous deaths in D&D lore than archfiends who have died. And actually, the "sillyness" about archfiends' connections to their respective planes' being equivalent to deific power (or situationally greater than it) has appeared in 3.x. You'll find a divergent point of view however between different writers on just how to handle the god/archfiend dichotomy, their stats, etc. And w/ respect to Demogorgon's power in the Abyss, for starters he indirectly killed an entire pantheon of gods by causing the Abyss to lash out, entrap, and digest them. I can think of other things beyond that. Thank you for the answer, I stand corrected (I didnt think there were any 3e Mods were PCs more than likely going to fight a god) However I doubt that the most powerful god of a pantheon have been put in a module where he/she was expected to fight PCs (Demogorgon as the most powerful Demon lord equates to this) I have heard that various reasons given on how Archfiends are actually as powerful or more powerful than the gods becouse they are not tied to worshipers but if that were the case why would Lolth choose to become a god? It is stated more or less that Lolth is now ABOVE her former peers. As for Demogorgon destroying an entire pantheon I would love to see someone actually play that out given DG stats. It is easy to write this but how exactly did he do it in game terms? I like the Dice freaks take on AFs and find it more reasonable than what we have from WOTC. My main problem with WOTC is that they basically said that Demon lords have the stats they do so that they can be the ultimate bad guy for NON epic charecters. Also they seem almost to be swayed by personal preferance in writting out Arch fiend stats. Funny that Lolth is an intermediate god (a powerful god at that) and Asmodeus is now a God (I' ll bet you high upper Intermediate or Greater god.) even though Demogorgon and yeenagho have just as much of a claim for godhood (both being the sole god for their worshipers). In their case they were thrown out as gods and new gods for those beings were made.... Actually though I prefere the DF perspective and just make the arch fiends cosmic entities with powers approching that( or surpasing in the case of Asmo and DG) of the Gods. Or just give them BETTER stats if nothing else. To me WOTC just made things needlessly convoluted by giveing Archfiends Stats that are not equel to their station.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-11-07, 08:32 PM	Thank you for the answer, I stand corrected (I didnt think there were any 3e Mods were PCs more than likely going to fight a god) However I doubt that the most powerful god of a pantheon have been put in a module where he/she was expected to fight PCs (Demogorgon as the most powerful Demon lord equates to this) The final Dungeon magazine adventure path takes it time and really goes out of its way to impress upon players and DM alike the odds of taking down Demogorgon. They literally have players dealing with a vast cabal of planar powers with a vested interest in either seeing Demogorgon killed, reduced in power, or those simply wanting to see him suffer. Everyone from Orcus, Charon the Marraenoloth lord, Obox-Ob, the Eladrin Court of Stars, etc. The PCs have a key role in the matter, but it's a monstrous collaborative effort involved in taking him down, and the various authors of the series of modules that detail all of this did a really spectacular job. And best of all, the module ending is pretty open ended, with PC defeat possible, along with various other lesser setbacks for Demogorgon. I suspect if say, Nerull was as iconic a figure as Demogorgon, we'd eventually see a module with taking down Nerull as the objective, deity or not. I have heard that various reasons given on how Archfiends are actually as powerful or more powerful than the gods becouse they are not tied to worshipers but if that were the case why would Lolth choose to become a god? It is stated more or less that Lolth is now ABOVE her former peers. Because Lolth began existance as a god, and her exile into the Abyss came later. She holds power in the Abyss, but she's not a true archfiend. Orcus, Lynkhab, or Alzrius might want to gain godhood as a potential adjunct to their own power in the Abyss, but that power doesn't so much improve their standing in the Abyss itself where thier true concerns lie, but it makes them more powerful outside of the Abyss and gets them involved in affairs beyond their home plane. The abyssal lords are largely concerned with the abyss and the lower planes, while gods like Lolth have little vested interest in abyssal politics, and have a sphere of concern (and liability) that's focused on the prime material. Gods and archfiends have radically different concerns, and those concerns usually don't directly intersect (though Lolth's current... problems... with Demogorgon and Zuggtmoy both making moves on layer 66 is a nice example of what happens when gods do get involved in Abyssal politics and it gets ugly). As for Demogorgon destroying an entire pantheon I would love to see someone actually play that out given DG stats. It is easy to write this but how exactly did he do it in game terms? The stats don't reflect his ability to do so, among many other things he has done. This is a failing of his given stats, or more in my opinion, a failure of defined stats to be able to reflect the nature of such beings. To me WOTC just made things needlessly convoluted by giveing Archfiends Stats that are not equel to their station. For the most part, I'm in perfect agreement with you there.
Orodruin 09-12-07, 06:10 AM	And w/ respect to Demogorgon's power in the Abyss, for starters he indirectly killed an entire pantheon of gods by causing the Abyss to lash out, entrap, and digest them. I can think of other things beyond that. The Abyss lashing out and destroying the pantheon of deities had nothing to do with Demogorgon's power or his connection with the Abyss. It was simply reacting to the destruction of one of it's layers. Heck, if it had been Elroy the Vrock or Pauly Shore who somehow convinced the deities to destroy Azuvidexus' layer the results would still have been the same.
pratputajao 09-12-07, 03:05 PM	The final Dungeon magazine adventure path takes it time and really goes out of its way to impress upon players and DM alike the odds of taking down Demogorgon. They literally have players dealing with a vast cabal of planar powers with a vested interest in either seeing Demogorgon killed, reduced in power, or those simply wanting to see him suffer. Everyone from Orcus, Charon the Marraenoloth lord, Obox-Ob, the Eladrin Court of Stars, etc. The PCs have a key role in the matter, but it's a monstrous collaborative effort involved in taking him down, and the various authors of the series of modules that detail all of this did a really spectacular job. And best of all, the module ending is pretty open ended, with PC defeat possible, along with various other lesser setbacks for Demogorgon. Hmm, sounds like I might enjoy this actually. We all have our favorite bad guy mine happens to be demogorgon. Not sure really? Maybe just his alien look and list of imposing powers grabbed me all those years ago....I find him much more interesting than Asmodeus who seems to be a kind of Satan rip off...Yawn, been there done that..... Anyway If I understand the Mod with DG was in an issue of Dungeon?(name of the mod escapes me now) What month would that be, anybody? While I dont get a chance to play much anymore (In a new community, wife and whatnot) I try and follow the game somewhat. I know my old group has redone the stats for Arch fiends as they agree the stats as presented are pretty sad.
Mirtek 09-12-07, 03:17 PM	And w/ respect to Demogorgon's power in the Abyss, for starters he indirectly killed an entire pantheon of gods by causing the Abyss to lash out, entrap, and digest them. I can think of other things beyond that. Which had nothing to do with Demogorgon's power, he didn't even know that such a thing could happen and was as surprised as anyone else.
Bob the Efreet 09-12-07, 08:38 PM	As for Demogorgon destroying an entire pantheon I would love to see someone actually play that out given DG stats. It is easy to write this but how exactly did he do it in game terms? Amazing. Since his stat block in the new edition doesn't support the lore and history of the character, it's clearly the character's history that is incorrect.
ripvanwormer 09-12-07, 09:31 PM	Most of one entire race worships him, whose name I won't even attempt to spell (the vampire fishies starting with an X). Two races. The ixitxachitl and kopru (both described in the 3.0 MMII) are both fanatic worshipers of Demogorgon. It's hard to say whether Demogorgon or Lolth has more, but they're both demon lords with substantial worshiper bases. They ought to be essentially the same.
Aseran 09-12-07, 09:49 PM	OH!! I HAVE A BETTER QUESTION!!! Why does Vecna have Divine ranks and demogorgon doesnt? See the last 2e product ever published, a little adventure called "Die, Vecna, Die!" :evillaugh There's no question that Vecna earned his spot in the pantheon, that crazy bastard.
The Serge7 09-12-07, 09:50 PM	It's hard to say whether Demogorgon or Lolth has more, but they're both demon lords with substantial worshiper bases. They ought to be essentially the same. Nope. Not possible. Lolth's a goddess and Demogorgon's just a demon. Demons are lame and can't compete with gods. Lolth's uber. She's always been a goddess and she's better than Demogorgon. And you too. :)
Aseran 09-12-07, 10:07 PM	Think of it like this: Lolth's power comes from the Prime, and her worshippers there. As such, she holds a lot of influence in the Abyss, however; Demogorgon is a power of the Abyss itself, and draws directly from the malevolence of it's very planar fabric, despite not being a proper diety. It balances out. If the two brough their full power to bear, they'd likely come up as equals, though things might sway wildly depending on who's turf this took place on.
pratputajao 09-12-07, 10:50 PM	Think of it like this: Lolth's power comes from the Prime, and her worshippers there. As such, she holds a lot of influence in the Abyss, however; Demogorgon is a power of the Abyss itself, and draws directly from the malevolence of it's very planar fabric, despite not being a proper diety. It balances out. If the two brough their full power to bear, they'd likely come up as equals, though things might sway wildly depending on who's turf this took place on. According to the stats I see, there is no contest no matter where the meeting took place- Demogorgon is no more. Where does it spell out in game mechanics the extra power Demogorgon (or any demon lord I guess?) gets in the abyss? ASAIK the only bonus he would have is the ability to manipulate his layer as a true deity would? I dont see where this makes him anywhere near the power that a high level intermediate god (Lolth) would have. Can someone explain how DG is supposed to have equal power to a god in his home layer? Ive never seen it.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-13-07, 12:09 AM	See the last 2e product ever published, a little adventure called "Die, Vecna, Die!" :evillaugh There's no question that Vecna earned his spot in the pantheon, that crazy bastard. Vecna was a god long before that travesty saw the light of day. He got to that point by being so horrifically powerful and twisted that, long after his death, cults began to pop up. Seriously, he was probably the single most evil mortal ever to live on Oerth.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-13-07, 01:00 AM	According to the stats I see, Admittedly, his (most recent WotC) stats are only for avatars/aspects, with no stats for any putative "true" form he might have, so a judgement based only on DG's statblock versus Lolth can't necessarily be made. Where does it spell out in game mechanics the extra power Demogorgon (or any demon lord I guess?) gets in the abyss? The stats are made of lose and fail. They don't express this, which is unfortunate, as it only perpetuates 3.x's little deity/archfiend false dichotomy. Here's one instance of note. Deities can pretty much micromanage the environment within their own deific domain. What they say happens within their deific domain is what happens. In the recent module "Expedition to the Demonweb Pits" Lolth has a number of archfiend aspects, proxies, and other representatives gathered inside her deific domain. During that meeting, Lolth has ordained that teleportation simply doesn't work, so if you want to go somewhere, you can't teleport without her permission. Simple enough. Yet Pale Night the obyrith Mother of Demons openly teleports during the events of the module, completely ignoring the will of a deity while inside that deity's own deific domain, in the presence of said deity's envoy/aspects. That shouldn't be possible, yet it happens nonetheless. There's nothing in Pale Night's avatar's statblock that lets her openly ignore the baseline rules set down by a god inside that god's deific domain, but it happens nonetheless. The stats don't encapsulate everything.
Witch 09-13-07, 06:01 AM	There's nothing in Pale Night's avatar's statblock that lets her openly ignore the baseline rules set down by a god inside that god's deific domain, but it happens nonetheless. The stats don't encapsulate everything. Which is not an inherent aspect of statting something, but just a failure of the stats in question :)
gomeztoo 09-13-07, 08:13 AM	Unless, ofcourse, Lolth simply granted permission.
ripvanwormer 09-13-07, 11:40 AM	Lolth's power comes from the Prime, and her worshippers there. As such, she holds a lot of influence in the Abyss, however; Demogorgon is a power of the Abyss itself, and draws directly from the malevolence of it's very planar fabric, despite not being a proper diety. Both of them gain power from the Material Plane and their worshipers there. Both have many, many worshipers. If Demogorgon gains power from the Abyss and Lolth doesn't, he ought to be even more powerful than she is. But then, Lolth is also a demon lord, so she also gains power from the Abyss itself.
Aseran 09-13-07, 11:46 AM	Who cares about the stats? If I'm running that adventure, I'm not going to scrutinize the rules for everything that goes on. Lolth is a diety, that's well and good, but look at what happens after the council--the players can fight her, and they're level twelve at the time. Everyone is de-powered there. Yet, if they confront Pale Night during the council, there's a good chance the PCs will just break. I'm willing to say that Pale Night is so unimaginably powerful and tied to the Abyss that, even if Lolth's domain seemed watertight, she's still be able to find the tiniest weakness in it that would allow her to make her exit whenever she pleased. As for Demogorgon in the Abyss, in terms of canon he might be done now, but hypothetically, this question applies to him at the height of his power. This is all something that DMs who run games involving these super-powered beings need to consider, that the rules aren't necessarily going to work at that scale and they need to be able to arbitrate a few things for themselves. 2e Planescape, at least, made that abundantly clear.
zook1shoe666 09-16-07, 12:26 PM	this is one reason i like Dicefreaks, more than the WotC Deity stat blocks EDIT: Who cares about the stats? i soooo agree
Lobsopdoy 09-17-07, 10:54 AM	The final Dungeon magazine adventure path takes it time and really goes out of its way to impress upon players and DM alike the odds of taking down Demogorgon. They literally have players dealing with a vast cabal of planar powers with a vested interest in either seeing Demogorgon killed, reduced in power, or those simply wanting to see him suffer. Everyone from Orcus, Charon the Marraenoloth lord, Obox-Ob, the Eladrin Court of Stars, etc. The PCs have a key role in the matter, but it's a monstrous collaborative effort involved in taking him down, and the various authors of the series of modules that detail all of this did a really spectacular job. And best of all, the module ending is pretty open ended, with PC defeat possible, along with various other lesser setbacks for Demogorgon. Name of Adventure Path, Dungeon Issue number, etc. NOW! Man, this sounds like pure solidified awesome. *ahem* Anyway, Demogorgon is pretty much the purest incarnation of the Abyss that you can find. He is pure, unbridled, primordial insanity. That >> Giant Spider Lady. :P Lolth lives in the Abyss. Demogorgon IS the Abyss (metaphorically, of course) Also, Vecna is awesome. Don't diss the one-eyed Lich.
pratputajao 09-17-07, 01:17 PM	Name of Adventure Path, Dungeon Issue number, etc. NOW! Man, this sounds like pure solidified awesome. *ahem* Anyway, Demogorgon is pretty much the purest incarnation of the Abyss that you can find. He is pure, unbridled, primordial insanity. That >> Giant Spider Lady. :P Lolth lives in the Abyss. Demogorgon IS the Abyss (metaphorically, of course) Also, Vecna is awesome. Don't diss the one-eyed Lich. I believe this (http://paizo.com/dungeon/products/issues/2007/150) to be the Module. Sounds pretty cool. As long as the game writters dont make the outcome of the Mod cannon and Kill off Demogorgon or remove the "Prince of Demons" title. That would be unforgivable :mad: