Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Courrain 12-06-07, 01:15 PM	Just recently a friend of mine asked me why the Para-elemental plane sitting between the Elemental Planes of Air and Water is Ice and not Vapor. He then pointed out that each of the Para-Elemental planes was a true blending of two Elemental Planes. Earth and Fire make Magma, Earth and Water make Ooze, and Fire and Air make Smoke. But instead of producing a Para-Elemental Plane that is a true blending of Water and Air, we get Ice instead. Thoughts on why this is so? :embarrass Personally I like to approach the matter with this analogy: Imagine that you are falling downward toward the North Pole. Above you is the sky which represents the Elemental Plane of Air, below you is the ice cap which represents the Para-Elemental Plane of Ice. You crash into the ice cap and sink into the water which rests below the ice cap. Now you are in the Elemental Plane of Water and sinking toward the bottom of the Arctic Ocean. At the bottom of the Ocean is a layer of ooze which represents the Para-Elemental Plane of Ooze. Sinking through that, you eventually reach the earth beneath it. Now you are falling through the actual bottom of the ocean, which represents the Elemental Plane of Earth. Eventually the rock you are falling through begins to liquify into Magma (the Para-Elemental Plane of Magma). And after that, you have reached the fiery core of the planet which could represent the Elemental Plane of Fire. Allowing yourself to be ejected by a volcanic eruption, would first take you through a cloud of smoke (the Para-Elemental Plane of Smoke) and then into the open sky again. There's your circular trip through the Inner Planes. ;)
hazhar 12-06-07, 01:32 PM	Because the inner planes are confusing. I agree with your friend, the border between Water and Air should be Vapor... only then you'd have to change the quasielemental plane of Steam, because there's too much crossover between the concepts. And since we're on the subject of inner plane inconsistentencies, what's the deal with Vacuum? All the other negative influenced quasielemental planes represent the element with something vital taken out of it. Ash is Fire without heat, Salt is Water without moisture, Dust is Earth without substantiality, but Vacuum is just Air without... Air. It could just as well be the negative plane of any other element; water minus water equals vacuum, earth minus earth equals vacuum, etc. The negative version of Air should be something like a Plane of Miasma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miasma_theory_of_disease), Air without breathability.
Starmage21 12-06-07, 01:40 PM	Because the inner planes are confusing. I agree with your friend, the border between Water and Air should be Vapor... only then you'd have to change the quasielemental plane of Steam, because there's too much crossover between the concepts. And since we're on the subject of inner plane inconsistentencies, what's the deal with Vacuum? All the other negative influenced quasielemental planes represent the element with something vital taken out of it. Ash is Fire without heat, Salt is Water without moisture, Dust is Earth without substantiality, but Vacuum is just Air without... Air. It could just as well be the negative plane of any other element; water minus water equals vacuum, earth minus earth equals vacuum, etc. The negative version of Air should be something like a Plane of Miasma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miasma_theory_of_disease), Air without breathability. Theres not necessarily no air there, just that it exists within a constant negative pressure.
hazhar 12-06-07, 01:56 PM	Theres not necessarily no air there, just that it exists within a constant negative pressure. Some greybeards sputter on about the dangers of a vacuum-that the lack of atmosphere doesn't allow a transmission of temperature and that without air, the lack of pressure'll cause a sod's own body to burst. Turns out, that's all screed. While the plane is marked by the complete lack of air, there is still pressure and constant temperature. Emphasis added ;)
ripvanwormer 12-06-07, 11:35 PM	It's because the para-elemental planes were originally based on the qualities of the elements, not a blending of the elements. The qualities associated with the four elements, according to the ancient Greeks, were Hot, Cold, Dry, and Moist. See Dragon #27, July 1979, in "Elementals and the Philosopher's Stone" by Jeff Swycaffer to see the original model of the Inner Planes: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/ripvanwormer/cosmos3.jpg Yes, at the time there were things called Pleasure Elementals. In Dragon #32, December 1979, "Playing on the Other Planes of Existence," Gygax said that Jeff Swycaffer's ideas "were good indeed," but noted that vapor should be substituted for moist and dust instead of dry/dryness. Thus, this was translated in the 1st edition Deities & Demigods book as Heat, Ice, Dust, and Vapor. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/ripvanwormer/cosmos4.jpg Later in 1st edition, the paraelemental planes were changed to Magma, Ice, Ooze, and Smoke instead, and the plane of Dust was made a quasielemental plane. Why the change? Gary Gygax explained his thinking himself in Dragon #73 (May 1983): Note that, in the torus, the Para-Elemental Planes (Ice, Dust, Vapor, Heat) occupy too much area. Discerning Students will also remark that three of these intervening planes are denoted by some material manifestation, while the remaining one is designated by a condition. Thus, the logical question: Which one in the series does not belong? Do not blame the Learned Authors of the work in which the depiction occurs — I am the one responsible for it, and I offer my apologies. Getting back to the point of this article: Another reference illustration (Figure B, at right below), also from the DEITIES & DEMIGODS” book, shows the Inner Planes (Material, Elemental, Positive, etc.). Isn’t it interesting to note how the Positive Material Plane sits upon the material multiverse as if it were a plate? Observe also how the Negative one serves as a saucer for the same body? If these odd relationships have troubled you, Gentle Readers, half as much as they have disturbed me, you have been sorely put upon. I, for one, could stand it no longer. After several hours of rooting around in the mess which I laughingly term my files, I discovered my notes on the Inner Planes. Atop the heap was an illustration of a tetrahedral structure for the Elemental Planes (Figure C, at the top left of the facing page) proposed by my Worthy Confederate, Steve Marsh. (count ‘em) Para-Elemental Planes, viz. Lightning, Magma, Dust, Ice, Vapor, and Ooze —all material substances, not conditions, by the by! The four faces are the Positive Material, Negative Material, and Shadow Planes, plus the infinity of the Prime. He liked the tetrahedral (4-sided die) structure, but liked the idea of basing the inner planar cosmology on a 6-sided die even more. With the six-sided structure, the elemental planes and positive and negative energy planes each represented a face on the die, while the quasielemental and paraelemental planes are the edges of the die. So that's why the change was made. In-game, the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix III explained that the inner planes had shifted eons ago, so that the old Paraelemental Plane of Steam merged with the Quasielemental Plane of Vapor, and the Paraelemental Plane of Dust merged with the Quasielemental Plane of Dust. Thus, the arrangement of the planes isn't the same as it was at the beginning of time.
sciborg3 12-07-07, 11:20 AM	Rip, at times I wonder if you are a living incarnation of the planes in human form...thanks for the history lesson. I myself have thought of the Inner Planes as working on a more alchemical logic than our own physical understanding and it's nice to see that Gygax was into the same ideas. There's your circular trip through the Inner Planes. Every now and then someone comes up with some unique perspective that can only be described as awesome. So, uh, that was awesome. :)
ArcTan 12-07-07, 04:28 PM	Just recently a friend of mine asked me why the Para-elemental plane sitting between the Elemental Planes of Air and Water is Ice and not Vapor. He then pointed out that each of the Para-Elemental planes was a true blending of two Elemental Planes. Earth and Fire make Magma, Earth and Water make Ooze, and Fire and Air make Smoke. But instead of producing a Para-Elemental Plane that is a true blending of Water and Air, we get Ice instead. Thoughts on why this is so? :embarrass Bluntly, because these things were made up haphazardly by Gary Gygax with little thought or energy put into them, and if one wants to use them one has to simply roll with it instead of expending huge amounts of energy trying to justify it by thinking too hard. Personally I like to approach the matter with this analogy: Imagine that you are falling downward toward the North Pole. Above you is the sky which represents the Elemental Plane of Air, below you is the ice cap which represents the Para-Elemental Plane of Ice. You crash into the ice cap and sink into the water which rests below the ice cap. Now you are in the Elemental Plane of Water and sinking toward the bottom of the Arctic Ocean. At the bottom of the Ocean is a layer of ooze which represents the Para-Elemental Plane of Ooze. Sinking through that, you eventually reach the earth beneath it. Now you are falling through the actual bottom of the ocean, which represents the Elemental Plane of Earth. Eventually the rock you are falling through begins to liquify into Magma (the Para-Elemental Plane of Magma). And after that, you have reached the fiery core of the planet which could represent the Elemental Plane of Fire. ...Except the "fiery core" of the planet is solid iron and nickel, but okay, whatever. Allowing yourself to be ejected by a volcanic eruption, would first take you through a cloud of smoke (the Para-Elemental Plane of Smoke) and then into the open sky again. If you're in the core, you're not going to be ejected by a volcanic eruption. There's your circular trip through the Inner Planes. ;) This is an example of the "thinking too hard" I was talking about.
ArcTan 12-07-07, 04:31 PM	Emphasis added ;) Hoo-ray for fantasy universes making no sense! I mean, it'd be kind of amusing if it turned out the Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum was actually the Quasielemental Plane of Inert Gases or the Quasielemental Plane of Deoxygenated Air or the Quasielemental Plane of Phlogisticated Air (to use the authentic old-school alchemy/chemistry term for it, and to create even more confusion with Spelljammer).
ArcTan 12-07-07, 05:00 PM	It's because the para-elemental planes were originally based on the qualities of the elements, not a blending of the elements. The qualities associated with the four elements, according to the ancient Greeks, were Hot, Cold, Dry, and Moist. See Dragon #27, July 1979, in "Elementals and the Philosopher's Stone" by Jeff Swycaffer to see the original model of the Inner Planes: [quote]In Dragon #32, December 1979, "Playing on the Other Planes of Existence," Gygax said that Jeff Swycaffer's ideas "were good indeed," but noted that vapor should be substituted for moist and dust instead of dry/dryness. Thus, this was translated in the 1st edition Deities & Demigods book as Heat, Ice, Dust, and Vapor. But Gygax was *wrong* about this. The point of the four qualities that define the four elements is that they are *qualities*, not things, and that the four material elements represent the four poles of a two-axis system -- kind of like Good/Evil and Law/Chaos forming Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil. Therefore, the four qualities are adjectives, not nouns. They're opposites of each other. Moist needs to be the opposite of Dry and Hot needs to be the opposite of Cold. Reducing this to "Heat" being the opposite of "Ice" and "Dust" being the opposite of "Vapor" (Dust is the opposite of vapor? Really?) misses the point entirely and destroys whatever interesting symmetry it might have had. (I do actually think the Greek classical elements and the alchemy and mysticism associated with them are kind of cool -- this is why Gygax's thoughtless butchering of it annoys me so much.) Later in 1st edition, the paraelemental planes were changed to Magma, Ice, Ooze, and Smoke instead, and the plane of Dust was made a quasielemental plane. Why the change? Gary Gygax explained his thinking himself in Dragon #73 (May 1983): But Gygax was ass-backwards with this. The whole *point* of the original concept there was that it makes a certain kind of sense and shows an interesting inversion of treating the four elements as "elemental" -- that the elements themselves are just the pure instances of combinations of even more elemental basic concepts. In what way is it now meaningful to say that regular Air somehow stands "midway" between Lightning and Vacuum, or midway between Ice and Smoke? In what way does this system feel organic and natural, with a meaningful progression from one to the other? If Gygax had presented this to an actual salon of Greek philosophers, he would've been laughed all the way back to the barbarian north. I should note, by the way, that Gygax also makes no sense when he talks about Heat having to be kicked out because it's a "condition" rather than a "material substance", given that Lightning and Fire aren't substances either, and are in fact *less* "substantial" than Heat (heat is a form of energy, lightning and fire are both *events* that happen when energy is transferred). Of course, if we're thinking in terms of old-school natural philosophers who don't know better, then heat *is* a substance just as much as lightning or fire -- heat is a sort of juice that is generated by some things (fire, warm air from the South and West Winds, the sun, living things) and sucked up and destroyed by other things (cold stone, ice, etc.) This is totally a real classical concept and something that in many respects makes *more* sense than defining "fire" as an element (and, indeed, later, more sophisticated understandings of the "element of fire" basically equated fire with all active sources of heat). In other words, this is an example of Gary Gygax simply not thinking things through. I wish it were the only one, but the tattered mess that was 1e AD&D speaks otherwise. (Also, can I say that his highfalutin' I-sound-like-a-British-guy-from-the-1800s writing style is *especially* grating and annoying when he uses it to cover up bad leaps in logic like this?) He liked the tetrahedral (4-sided die) structure, but liked the idea of basing the inner planar cosmology on a 6-sided die even more. With the six-sided structure, the elemental planes and positive and negative energy planes each represented a face on the die, while the quasielemental and paraelemental planes are the edges of the die. So that's why the change was made. In-game, the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix III explained that the inner planes had shifted eons ago, so that the old Paraelemental Plane of Steam merged with the Quasielemental Plane of Vapor, and the Paraelemental Plane of Dust merged with the Quasielemental Plane of Dust. Thus, the arrangement of the planes isn't the same as it was at the beginning of time. Well, yes. That's a convenient way to explain why an all-encompassing basic cosmology of the universe doesn't make sense. Similarly, at some point in the future monkeys might colonize, take over and completely reshape the Quasielemental Plane of Dust, turning it into the Quasielemental Plane of Monkeys, thus ensuring that in the future cosmology the combination of Negative Energy + Earth will equal Monkeys for all alchemists and mages across the Prime, creating a race of Monkey Mephits and Monkey Quasielementals, and a whole line of spells that are powered by the elemental energy of monkeyhood.
sciborg3 12-07-07, 11:40 PM	Well, yeah it makes little sense but I guess I just ended up liking it after several years. There does seem to be some intuitive sense to the whole thing - I think that's what so maddening about it. If it were totally random it would be easy to dismiss. As for "thinking too hard" about it, I'd prefer that than the new childish concept of devils and demons that has come to 4e.
ripvanwormer 12-08-07, 12:31 AM	Berating other posters for "thinking too much?" Seriously, ArcTan: not cool. It's poor manners, first of all, and it's a bit like a cactus going to a rain forest to complain about water usage. Courrain posted something constructive and interesting, and deserves credit for that. My post wasn't an invitation to debate, and neither was the original post in this thread. A question was asked, and I answered it. I ventured no opinion on the subject, and trying to "debate" Gary Gygax from three decades in the future is sublimely weird. And you're still mistaking inept hyperbole for meaningful analogy, I see. We get it: you dislike the Great Wheel cosmology. I think that in the future we can just assume this; it's really not useful or interesting for you to constantly remind us of this fact. You're just a troll.
ArcTan 12-08-07, 01:36 AM	He asked for "thoughts on why this is so". I presented them. Are only canonical, in-universe, "respectful" thoughts acceptable thoughts? I'm not really berating Courrain, just pointing out that trying to create complex logical justifications for something that was created haphazardly and with no *real* internal logic to it is a bit of a fool's errand.
ArcTan 12-08-07, 01:41 AM	Well, yeah it makes little sense but I guess I just ended up liking it after several years. There does seem to be some intuitive sense to the whole thing - I think that's what so maddening about it. If it were totally random it would be easy to dismiss. Well, it makes *some* logical sense, obviously. One can see how the thought process went. ("What's air with lots of energy in it? Lightning! What's air that's had all the 'life' sucked out of it? Vacuum!") That's part of my frustration with it -- from my POV, I'd prefer it if there were some genuinely surprising or insightful combinations that arose from the interactions between elements. Instead it's stuff that I would have a 60% chance of coming up with if asked to think about it for five minutes. (I might've said "Wind!" instead of "Lightning!", for instance.) As for "thinking too hard" about it, I'd prefer that than the new childish concept of devils and demons that has come to 4e. ...It's not like old-school Demons and Devils *not* having any theme to their physical form actually gave anyone anything to think about. The idea that a particular shape (humanoid) is associated with Law and a lack of that shape is associated with Chaos is more of an idea than the lack of any such idea was.
Courrain 12-08-07, 11:49 PM	This is an example of the "thinking too hard" I was talking about.[/QUOTE] Actually ArcTan the analogy I used to describe the Inner Planes didn't require any hard thinking on my part. It just came to me while I was chatting with a friend about the Inner Planes, the same one who wondered why Ice sat between Air and Water, and not Vapor. Anyway, I am surprised that my question brought about this debate between you and the others. :cool: And I am especially pleased that Ripvanwormer did some research into the subject and came back with some interesting info. :)
Igfig 12-09-07, 02:56 PM	Similarly, at some point in the future monkeys might colonize, take over and completely reshape the Quasielemental Plane of Dust, turning it into the Quasielemental Plane of Monkeys, thus ensuring that in the future cosmology the combination of Negative Energy + Earth will equal Monkeys for all alchemists and mages across the Prime, creating a race of Monkey Mephits and Monkey Quasielementals, and a whole line of spells that are powered by the elemental energy of monkeyhood. MONKEY MEPHIT Small Outsider (Earth, Extraplanar) Hit Dice: 3d8 (13 hp) Initiative: +7 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (perfect) Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/–1 Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d3) Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d3) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Breath weapon, spell-like abilities, summon mephit Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/magic, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 2 Saves: Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +3 Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 15 Skills: Balance +11, Bluff +8, Climb +11, Escape Artist +9, Hide +13, Diplomacy +4, Disguise +2 (+4 acting), Intimidate +4, Listen +6, Move Silently +9, Spot +6, Use Rope +3 (+5 with bindings) Feats: Dodge, Improved Initiative Environment: Elemental Plane of Monkeys Organization: Solitary (1), gang (2–4 mephits of mixed types), or mob (5–12 mephits of mixed types) Challenge Rating: 3 Treasure: Standard Alignment: Usually neutral Advancement: 4–6 HD (Small); 7–9 HD (Medium) Level Adjustment: +3 (cohort) Monkey mephits come from the Elemental Plane of Monkeys. A monkey mephit is about 4 feet tall and weighs about 2 pounds. Monkey mephits speak Common and Terran. Combat Breath Weapon (Su): 15-foot cone of bananas, damage 1d8, Reflex DC 12 half. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +1 racial bonus. Spell-Like Abilities: Once per hour, a monkey mephit can surround itself with a whirl of leaves, duplicating the effect of a blur spell (caster level 3rd). Once per day it can throw a barrage of coconuts that duplicates the effect of magic missile (caster level 6th). Fast Healing (Ex): A monkey mephit heals only if in an environment full of monkeys. Skills: Monkey mephits have a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. They use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb checks.
yrogerg 12-09-07, 06:58 PM	My post wasn't an invitation to debate, and neither was the original post in this thread. A question was asked, and I answered it. I ventured no opinion on the subject, and trying to "debate" Gary Gygax from three decades in the future is sublimely weird. And you're still mistaking inept hyperbole for meaningful analogy, I see. To be fair, it *is* an accurate critque that Gygax's *change* from the Swycaffer's map of the elemental planes to the the current cosmology was based on a fundamental misunderstanding about the classical elements, and that drifting away from these and creating paraelemental planes honestly made the whole thing less intuitive and sensical. And trying to cover this with a half-assed retcon "That changed eons ago" that turns the planes into tectonic plates doesn't help matters.
Rulebook 12-09-07, 11:14 PM	i'd say because the Etherial Plane is already full of vapor and mist, and they were avoiding redundancy
ArcTan 12-10-07, 03:07 AM	You'll notice that in actual Greek mythology, "ether" was a kind of Air -- indeed, it was originally the term for *pure* Air, unsullied by other elements, the clear air of the highest heavens.
WombleHunter 12-10-07, 06:29 PM	Ice is cooler.
sciborg3 12-11-07, 09:48 AM	Yeah, at the end of the day this is what it comes down to - Ice is more interesting for adventures. Heck, it's the only para (or quasi) elemental plane to have its own Archomental....who apparently is the abominable snowman...
ArcTan 12-11-07, 02:54 PM	Any magic system that uses Fire as an element, because Fire is awesome, runs into the problem that the logical opposite of Fire is Ice, which is just as awesome as Fire, but the ancient Greeks didn't think of Ice (or Cold) as a separate element. Other RPG systems have solved this by saying that Water is Fire's opposite and covers all kinds of Water including Ice. I tend to agree with this assessment, since otherwise you get the pretty clear problem that Water itself is not very awesome and cool effects are very rarely based on it. (When was the last time you saw an awesome spell in D&D with the [Water] descriptor?) Hell, the base rules even outright say that Cold energy damage is linked to the element of Water.
yrogerg 12-11-07, 08:10 PM	Any magic system that uses Fire as an element, because Fire is awesome, runs into the problem that the logical opposite of Fire is Ice, which is just as awesome as Fire, but the ancient Greeks didn't think of Ice (or Cold) as a separate element. Other RPG systems have solved this by saying that Water is Fire's opposite and covers all kinds of Water including Ice. I tend to agree with this assessment, since otherwise you get the pretty clear problem that Water itself is not very awesome and cool effects are very rarely based on it. (When was the last time you saw an awesome spell in D&D with the [Water] descriptor?) Hell, the base rules even outright say that Cold energy damage is linked to the element of Water. Right. Because as it stands, you run into the problem where the opposite of ice is magma. Which, makes sense?? :confused:
ripvanwormer 12-11-07, 10:15 PM	To be fair, it *is* an accurate critque that Gygax's *change* from the Swycaffer's map of the elemental planes to the the current cosmology was based on a fundamental misunderstanding about the classical elements Well, no, that's not fair. It's not at all clear if Gygax "misunderstood" Swycaffer's article (which was very clear in its intentions and the history of alchemical theory) or if he simply made the change for aesthetic reasons. Although Gygax didn't give a reason for his change, the latter explanation is far more likely. Before claiming the critique is "accurate" remember that everything you know about the situation you're getting second-hand through me, so you might not have all the facts. And trying to cover this with a half-assed retcon Again, remember that all you know about this is stuff you've gleaned second-hand through my (brief) summary of the events. The theory in the PSMCIII is not presented as a retcon, nor is it presented as an explanation for why the Plane of Ice exists in the place it does. It is presented only as an possible explanation for why a kind of monster called a wavefire can be found in the Quasielemental Plane of Steam (and why this plane isn't as steamy as one would expect). I mentioned it because I think it could be an in-game explanation for the nature of the paraelemental planes, but it is not presented as such and there are plenty of other possibilities.
yrogerg 12-12-07, 08:22 AM	Well, no, that's not fair. It's not at all clear if Gygax "misunderstood" Swycaffer's article (which was very clear in its intentions and the history of alchemical theory) or if he simply made the change for aesthetic reasons. Although Gygax didn't give a reason for his change, the latter explanation is far more likely. Before claiming the critique is "accurate" remember that everything you know about the situation you're getting second-hand through me, so you might not have all the facts. Again, remember that all you know about this is stuff you've gleaned second-hand through my (brief) summary of the events. The theory in the PSMCIII is not presented as a retcon, nor is it presented as an explanation for why the Plane of Ice exists in the place it does. It is presented only as an possible explanation for why a kind of monster called a wavefire can be found in the Quasielemental Plane of Steam (and why this plane isn't as steamy as one would expect). I mentioned it because I think it could be an in-game explanation for the nature of the paraelemental planes, but it is not presented as such and there are plenty of other possibilities. Here's the thing, though. It's kludgy. It's ridiculously kludgy. It's ridiculously kludgy in ways that make a more faithful representation of the classical elements considerably more desirable. It doesn't actually take a genius to see, stepwise, what happened, contrary to your claims that I'm just judging by hearsay. First, Gygax decided that instead of axes, represeting qualities that constitute the elements, the intermediate spaces should consist of additional planes, represeting additional substances. So, he tried converting them to their closest-fit substance. Heat (instead of Hot), Ice (instead of Cold, Dust (instead of Dryness), and Vapor (instead of Moistness). At this point, it was already somewhat of a departure from the basic idea of the elements, and already runs into problems, including that thing with Heat. Gygax (and possibly other) realized this, somewhat, and changed the rest of the planes to instead represent mixtures of the two interacting elements (though this is another thing I never really liked, but that's besides the point right now), but he *left* Ice (Cold) in, despite the fact that Ice no longer fit the conception of the Paraelemental planes. The whole Dryness/moistness continuum has vanished, as has Heat (Hot) as an opposite pole to Ice (Cold). Basically, it got grandfathered into a planar system that no longer makes sense for it, and it should have been changed along with Ooze, Smoke, and Magma, but wasn't. Just because it's still the D&D cosmology doesn't mean it really makes all that much sense.
sciborg3 12-12-07, 11:00 AM	I think your missing what Rip is saying - not that you are wrong or right but its not fair to take his summary of Gygax and argue from there. Its like debating a paraphrase of an argument given by another person rather than challenging the source. Simply put, unless we read the article (my Dragon archive is miles away) we have no definitive idea of what Gygax intended.
yrogerg 12-12-07, 07:30 PM	Simply put, unless we read the article (my Dragon archive is miles away) we have no definitive idea of what Gygax intended. It doesn't seem all that difficult to infer some sort of intent, given the specific changes that occurred. Unless rip's paraphrase was wildly innaccurate, reading the old Dragon articles wouldn't change the actual changes that occurred. And it certainly doesn't make it impossible to argue consistency, nor does it render discussions about consistency completely irrelevant. The first change was changing qualities to related substances. Cold became Ice, Dryness became Dust, Moisture became Vapor, and Heat became Heat. The last change was obviously the weakest of the bunch, and frankly, was roughly the same sort of misfit as Ice is now. The second change certainly appears to be tossing out qualities entirely, and replacing them with mixtures of adjacent substances. Thus were born Ooze(Water and Earth), Smoke (Fire and Air), and Magma (Earth and Fire). Ice stayed, even though it hardly makes sense as a mixture of Water and Air. Foam, maybe. Vapor, maybe. Changing everythinge else, and keeping the the paraelemental plane of Ice, however, they might as well have called just it the Paraelemental plane of I can't think of anything better and been done with it.
ripvanwormer 12-12-07, 09:10 PM	It doesn't actually take a genius to see, stepwise, what happened, contrary to your claims that I'm just judging by hearsay. You were just judging by hearsay, and your earlier post was, as a result, misguided and incorrect, as ArcTan's was. Your summary in the post I'm responding to now is likely closer to the actual events than your previous claim that he "misunderstood" Swycaffer's article. The key point, which you couldn't have known because you didn't read the original article, is that the change was likely deliberate and done with full awareness of its implications. We more or less agree now on the facts, although we disagree on the aesthetics of it. I'm capable of suspending my disbelief and accepting that, in D&D, ice is a combination of water and air (two relatively volatile elements that only form a compound under frigid conditions, in combination with earth to stabilize it, or in the Platonic ring of the Inner Planes). Or, as I suggested above, perhaps the Inner Planar arrangement is the result of historical/geologic processes rather than a Platonic representation of the way D&D alchemy works. You'd rather D&D used a more intuitive, classical system, which is fair enough. You call it cludgy; I call it interestingly quirky. As long as you don't think D&D needs to be based on real-world chemistry, we're not that far apart.
SirGeshko 12-13-07, 01:46 PM	Once per day it can throw a barrage of coconuts that duplicates the effect of magic missile (caster level 6th). Are you sure that's coconuts those damn dirty apes are throwing?? :D Or should that be a special Monkey Feat?
Orchomenos 12-14-07, 11:51 AM	Here's an old site (http://www.geocities.com/gradasso/) with the 2nd Edition cosmology explained.
ArcTan 12-14-07, 08:49 PM	There are a million of these sites on the Internet, and the one you linked to, like most of them, doesn't really "explain" anything, just names things. (It tells us that Air + Water = Ice but doesn't actually say *why*.)
Naderion 12-15-07, 06:36 AM	Why do we have ice? Because it's cool! or should I say rocks? :D
EvilVegan 12-15-07, 08:47 AM	If I were going to have elemental planes using the same premise as D&D I'd arrange them like this: Air + Earth - Dust Air + Fire - Smoke Air + Water - Vapor Air + Negative - Lightning Air + Positive - Brilliance Earth + Air - Dust Earth + Fire - Magma Earth + Water - Ooze Earth + Negative - Metal Earth + Positive - Crystal Fire + Air - Smoke Fire + Earth - Magma Fire + Water - Steam Fire + Negative - Ember Fire + Positive - Spark Water + Air - Vapor Water + Earth - Ooze Water + Fire - Steam Water + Negative - Base Water + Positive - Acid The mixture planes would be called Transitive planes, and you would experience them as you moved from one area to the other. Of course, there is absolutely no reason to arrange these planes in a way that keeps one from touching another, as they're all supposedly infinite making static placement a useless concept. Not that it matters, but yea, you can come up with some logically consistent internal planes. Personally, I think planes (especially in the great wheel structure) are stupid. I have maybe 3 at most, representing the after life (SHOCK OF SHOCKS!) and a dream/shadow plane. Elementals come from areas of concentrated elements, such as fire elementals coming out of volcanoes. When you summon an elemental it comes from the elements around you, not from an alternate dimension.
teamfireyleader 12-15-07, 09:23 AM	Alright where do air & water mix: Storms Clouds Sea winds hurricanes. Also why does Air + negative = lightning? Lightning can be positively charged or negativly. And it is energy that causes it (friction) so surely it would be both pos & neg?
EvilVegan 12-15-07, 11:49 AM	Alright where do air & water mix: Storms Clouds Sea winds hurricanes. Also why does Air + negative = lightning? Lightning can be positively charged or negativly. And it is energy that causes it (friction) so surely it would be both pos & neg? Who knows? The planes are kooky! I just wanted lightning in there somewhere! See, I can pull a Gygax too! Really though, I was trying to think of air that was removed of its positive energy, and it came to electricity. You don't like it? I don't care. It's better than "vacuum" any day. "Cloud" wouldn't be a bad Air + Water transitive plane. But that's the same as Vapor, with a better name.
ArcTan 12-15-07, 10:34 PM	Alright where do air & water mix: Storms Clouds Sea winds hurricanes. Yes. The Air + Water = Ice thing seems especially obtuse because air is not in any way needed to form ice, and people who are familiar with ice know this (veins of ice running through the earth, ice buried under feet of snow, etc.) Also why does Air + negative = lightning? It depends on what you mean by "Negative Energy", something the game itself is kind of unclear about. Although it has nothing to do with negative electric charge, which is what you're talking about. To be honest, even though I snarked about the concept, introducing the alchemical concept of "phlogisticated air" or unbreathable air (i.e. deoxygenated air) as "negative air" as Negative + Air would be pretty cool, although unlike Gygax I wouldn't make a whole damn plane out of it. Pure oxygen, or dephlogisticated air, would be Positive + Air and would make things explode in flames and such. Of course, this runs into the problem that "positive energy" overlaps with fire, but that was *already* a problem, so meh. (Also, it points up the fact that the Spelljammer "phlogiston" is the exact opposite of what phlogiston is supposed to mean. Oxygen isn't phlogiston, it's air with all the phlogiston taken out -- phlogiston *stops* burning.) Lightning can be positively charged or negativly. And it is energy that causes it (friction) so surely it would be both pos & neg?[/QUOTE] In any case, the types of energy damage -- which make their own kind of vague sense, I suppose -- are already linked up with the elements, and if you like having everything in the game be associated then that's fine as far as it goes. Air = Electric damage makes sense, or more sense than the alternatives, and gives you a reason to put Lightning in there. (But then Water = Cold, and that makes Ice = Air + Water seem even dumber.)
teamfireyleader 12-16-07, 07:34 AM	I was wrong about the charge thing anyway. Lightning is pos. It causes air around it to be neg.:( But lets think what the plane could be. pos.plasma? oh wait flame is plasma. Hang on so is electricity. Yeah thunder plane neg. In american winters do you get mornings where everything is cold? So cold that it hurts your ears and head and the ground is frozen and people avoid getting out of the house of fear of crashing in their cars. Last few days have been like that here in britain. That type of air hurts and stings and would in d&d surely cause cold and neg damage. So maybe icy air is the neg plane.
EvilVegan 12-16-07, 08:08 AM	I was wrong about the charge thing anyway. Lightning is pos. It causes air around it to be neg.:( But lets think what the plane could be. pos.plasma? oh wait flame is plasma. Hang on so is electricity. Yeah thunder plane neg. In american winters do you get mornings where everything is cold? So cold that it hurts your ears and head and the ground is frozen and people avoid getting out of the house of fear of crashing in their cars. Last few days have been like that here in britain. That type of air hurts and stings and would in d&d surely cause cold and neg damage. So maybe icy air is the neg plane.We don't get weather like that, thanks to us killing all of our pirates. http://farm1.static.flickr.com/54/139092366_ce5b410228.jpg?v=0
teamfireyleader 12-16-07, 06:39 PM	Ok... that is a bit odd. But not as odd as a chart showing that the no. of babies in a neibor hood was related to the no. of stalks in an area. Why? families with babies have heating higher than normal in cold winter, right? Stalks roost on warm buildings. The 2 factors are joinded but not for the reason it first apears. Also remember that is a global chart. yesterday -4 degrees centergrade (no idea what it is fareheight) at 11 oclock. That is 4 degrees below freezing temp of water. I had to sell cakes for the scout cake stall by the pond. outside. definatly neg+cold damage. it hurt. Dang pirates that haven't been seen or heard of in british waters for over 20 years. Make it warmer. Also rid us of the common cold. Well atlest school finishes on tuesday. No cycling a mile to school below freezing. BOT Air + Water = Cloud plane, where things get fly speeds and things with wings double there own. No ground. Air + Neg = plane of British winters, where each hour you take 1d6 cold 1d6 neg and 1d6 "frustration at your tyres blowing out" damage. No water. Ice. You contract disease common cold, at its very worst. 1 dex 1 cha. inc 1 week. dc 20 (my brothers had 37 degree temp (3 degrees above normal) for 8 days. He is just getting better.) Don't worry though the plain has a weekly "it gets colder but brighter day". 1d8 cold but no other damage.
dawnbringer 12-22-07, 01:43 PM	I take it that no one has realised that water + air does indeed make ice if you bring them together?
ArcTan 12-22-07, 11:23 PM	Um... no, it doesn't. Here, let me try it right now. *goes off with a straw* Nope, it just makes water with bubbles in it. Doesn't matter how hard I blow in the straw, doesn't make it freeze. Try again.
yrogerg 12-22-07, 11:52 PM	You call it cludgy; I call it interestingly quirky. To be fair, judging by the quotes you supplied, it seems pretty clear that Gygax wasn't going for "interestingly quirky". Rather, it does appear evident that he was making those changes for what he saw as consistency's sake.
ripvanwormer 12-23-07, 03:44 AM	To be fair, judging by the quotes you supplied, it seems pretty clear that Gygax wasn't going for "interestingly quirky". Rather, it does appear evident that he was making those changes for what he saw as consistency's sake. Not exactly. He changed "heat" to "magma" for consistency's sake, deciding to make all the Inner Planes substances instead of having some of them substances and some of them traits of substances. Other changes, such as going with a 6-sided-die analogy, were purely aesthetic in nature rather than driven by a desire for consistency. "Interestingly quirky" is my judgment of his aesthetic.
ArcTan 12-23-07, 04:20 AM	...No, he started with things that were *all* traits (heat, cold, dryness, moisture) and turned *some* of them into substances (cold->ice, dryness->dust, moisture->vapor). Then he went back and turned "heat" to "magma" too, which he'd left unchanged in what was apparently an oversight. That doesn't speak well for his ability to be consistent. (Then there were later changes like Lightning, which is *equally* not a "substance" as Heat, getting a plane for some reason.)
ripvanwormer 12-23-07, 11:09 AM	He started with things like Earth, Fire, Air, and Water, which are substances (in fantasy terms). He decided to make the para-elements substances too (probably to make them more interesting to adventure in). He admitted that keeping the name "Heat" while changing the others was a mistake, and corrected it. This is why your "that doesn't speak well for his ability to be consistent" line is so puzzling, ArcTan. Yes, that's what Yrogerg and I were talking about. He saw an inconsistency, and fixed it. Nobody had claimed he was consistent before that, least of all Gygax himself. It's as if you're trying to argue with us by agreeing with us, which is bizarre. Yrogerg: I believe that Gygax was trying to correct an inconsistency. Me: That was part of what he was doing, yes, but there was an aesthetic side to his changes as well. ArcTan: No, you blind fools. Gary Gygax was inconsistent! Lightning is a substance in fantasy terms (think of the Cyclopes forging the thunderbolts of Zeus on the forge of Hephaestus). It's certainly not a quality, which is our only other salient category.
EvilVegan 12-23-07, 11:50 AM	I would be very puzzled if you're seriously criticizing the Inner Planes on the basis that they're not an accurate simulation of modern chemistry. Well. . . they're not! :P Nor are they an accurate representation of any other thing, like alchemy or religions/myths of old. They are wholely an amalgamation of unrelated concepts and hammering. Which is fine.
yrogerg 12-23-07, 12:27 PM	Well. . . they're not! :P Nor are they an accurate representation of any other thing, like alchemy or religions/myths of old. They are wholely an amalgamation of unrelated concepts and hammering. Agreed Which is fine. It's fine, but it also means that pointing this fact out, and criticizing it as such, especially when the OP's question was "why is it ice instead of vapor? That doesn't make any sense" is still in-order. Rip's first post detailed *how* the change occurred, but the rest of us were trying to answer the "why" part. Ice is, in fact, a thematic misfit among the current inner planes, barring some half-hearted, handwaving "ice is, err, kinda like air and water..."s that don't actually explain anything. The fact that rip, personally, thinks it's "interestingly quirky" doesn't change the fairly evident fact that the change Gygax made to the paraelemental planes *was* aimed at consistency, and by many estimations, failed to establish a more consistent set of planes than what had existed prior. Is it possible that his aesthetic was at work, particularly with those first few changes that generated the inconsistencies in the first place? Definitely. Likely, even. Moreover, it's pretty obvious that some of the later changes -the positive and negative energy planes and the quasielemental planes- were purely aesthetic, even though he phrased them as changes for consistency, something which I do actually find mildly irksome. That doesn't mean that anyone who brings a critical viewpoint to someone's thread asking "why don't the inner planes make sense?" is wrong, or a troll, or needs to be dismissed.
EvilVegan 12-23-07, 01:05 PM	I'd never dismiss the question. I personally hate the inner planes and the outer planes, the great wheel, and all Montague. It is nonsense, even from a fantasy point of view, and, as such, I remove it from my campaigns. It's the result of 30 years of people trying to put their own spin on the planes, which weren't very consistent to begin with.
dawnbringer 12-23-07, 05:42 PM	Um... no, it doesn't. Here, let me try it right now. *goes off with a straw* Nope, it just makes water with bubbles in it. Doesn't matter how hard I blow in the straw, doesn't make it freeze. Try again. Sigh, the air you are using isn't cold enough.
ArcTan 12-23-07, 06:04 PM	Sigh, the air you are using isn't cold enough. Air doesn't freeze water. Cold freezes water. *Cold air* freezes water, sure, but the air isn't actually important. Or are you saying that there's no frost deep beneath the ground in the winter (where it's not exposed to air)? Because my shovel says there is.
dawnbringer 12-23-07, 06:07 PM	Cold air Does freeze water, and thus, Water + Air makes ice, making the plane of Ice. You also forget that Ice needs some kind of Air to be ice. How, may I ask, did that ice get underground without there being some air there if ice is comprised of Air? If there is no Air circulating underground, whether it be through cracks or crevasses, there will be no ice.
Kojiro James 12-23-07, 07:27 PM	Cold air Does freeze water, and thus, Water + Air makes ice, making the plane of Ice. You also forget that Ice needs some kind of Air to be ice. How, may I ask, did that ice get underground without there being some air there if ice is comprised of Air? If there is no Air circulating underground, whether it be through cracks or crevasses, there will be no ice. Not to mention that worms, ants, termites, and people in caves will suffocate all the time if there is no air in the ground.
sciborg3 12-23-07, 10:37 PM	It is nonsense, even from a fantasy point of view, and, as such, I remove it from my campaigns. :rolleyes: Just because you don't like it doesn't make the whole thing nonsense. Don't be a troll. It's the result of 30 years of people trying to put their own spin on the planes, which weren't very consistent to begin with. The para and quasi weren't consistent (though they were fun), but take them out and I'm not seeing huge logical leaps.
ripvanwormer 12-24-07, 01:47 AM	That doesn't mean that anyone who brings a critical viewpoint to someone's thread asking "why don't the inner planes make sense?" is wrong, or a troll, or needs to be dismissed. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that dissent itself was trolling. I only have a problem with the actual troll. The rest of the critics are fine. Evil Vegan gave a constructive alternate version of the Inner Planes, for example, which I was very impressed with, and I have no objections to your posts, although I may have personal disagreed with some of the details.
ArcTan 12-24-07, 03:47 AM	Cold air Does freeze water, and thus, Water + Air makes ice, making the plane of Ice. You also forget that Ice needs some kind of Air to be ice. How, may I ask, did that ice get underground without there being some air there if ice is comprised of Air? If there is no Air circulating underground, whether it be through cracks or crevasses, there will be no ice. What the hell are you talking about? Air *doesn't* form ice. Air is *not* necessary for ice to form. The only thing necessary for ice to form is for water to go below its freezing point. Ice does not contain air, or, at least, no more air than water does (probably less -- dissolved gases in water will tend to separate from the water as it freezes). Water is H2O. Ice is H2O. Ice is only water in its solid form. Freaking-A, are people actually taking *physics lessons* from D&D's planar cosmology now?
ArcTan 12-24-07, 03:50 AM	Not to mention that worms, ants, termites, and people in caves will suffocate all the time if there is no air in the ground. Worms, ants, termites, and whatnot can't survive in permafrost, because the spaces where air would normally be in the soil have all been permanently *filled by ice*, which *does not contain any air*. Holy freaking -- is D&D now responsible for robbing people of first-grade knowledge like "Ice is only the solid form of water"?
EvilVegan 12-24-07, 08:05 AM	:rolleyes: Just because you don't like it doesn't make the whole thing nonsense. Don't be a troll. The para and quasi weren't consistent (though they were fun), but take them out and I'm not seeing huge logical leaps. It isn't that I don't like it (I like parts of it, if not most of it). It is because they don't make sense. Non. Sense. That is, of course, my personal opinion of the fictional material. I'm not going to preface everything I post as my opinion. Just assume that it is my opinion. I wasn't trolling and calling people a troll is against CoC. Report me if you think I posted something offensive. I didn't, but whatever. :D BTW I'm not upset about this in any way, just sayin'. And parts of the inner planes do make sense, just not all of the parts or their placement. Also the game doesn't suffer if you remove them and their presence has never once affected any game I've played in ever. So I remove them from my campaigns. 'Problem' solved, for me. Everyone else is free to do what they want, as per normal. I like my games to be consistent. If something appears to be lacking consistency I remove it or fix it. The outer and inner planes are a bit too large to micromanage all the things I don't like into being "fixed" so they get chucked. And since I'm not playing Planescape it doesn't really factor into my games anyway.
EvilVegan 12-24-07, 08:11 AM	Worms, ants, termites, and whatnot can't survive in permafrost, because the spaces where air would normally be in the soil have all been permanently *filled by ice*, which *does not contain any air*. Holy freaking -- is D&D now responsible for robbing people of first-grade knowledge like "Ice is only the solid form of water"? It contains solid air in the form of cold. And air is always cold, that's why, no matter what, when you combine air with water it makes ice. That's why the top few inches of the ocean is always frozen. Look outside, noob. And your so called "experiment" with the bubbles didn't work because bubbles are, as everyone knows, made of magma.
sciborg3 12-24-07, 12:03 PM	I like my games to be consistent. If something appears to be lacking consistency I remove it or fix it. Where is the inconsistency?....but hey don't worry too much about it right now. Its the holidays after all, we can come together and fight over fictional universes in the new years. :cool:
Kojiro James 12-24-07, 10:02 PM	Worms, ants, termites, and whatnot can't survive in permafrost, because the spaces where air would normally be in the soil have all been permanently *filled by ice*, which *does not contain any air*. Actually it also means that they used up all of the available oxygen and replaced it with carbon dioxide which they can't breathe, but that's just me nitpicking. Interesting enough, if you're going to get so very hyper-factual by bringing physics into the argument, it might interest you to know that there's water in the air and that's where frost comes from. But for that to actually happen, the air has to be cold first, otherwise you just get mildew. For Pelor's sake, it's a damn fantasy game. Get off your high horse.
yrogerg 12-25-07, 01:19 AM	Cold air Does freeze water, and thus, Water + Air makes ice, making the plane of Ice. You also forget that Ice needs some kind of Air to be ice. How, may I ask, did that ice get underground without there being some air there if ice is comprised of Air? ...which is why outer space is completely devoid of ice. :rolleyes:
yrogerg 12-25-07, 01:24 AM	otherwise you just get mildew. To be hyper-hyperfactual, you get dew. You only get mildew if the dew (or any other coat of water) sticks around for a while.
ArcTan 12-25-07, 02:46 AM	...which is why outer space is completely devoid of ice. Just in case people's sarcasm detectors don't go off -- outer space is not completely devoid of ice. Comets, for instance, are made of ice.
ArcTan 12-25-07, 02:51 AM	Actually it also means that they used up all of the available oxygen and replaced it with carbon dioxide which they can't breathe, but that's just me nitpicking. In the case of permafrost, this isn't true -- there never was any "available oxygen" because it's *permafrost* -- the ground stays frozen all year and has been frozen ever since there was permafrost there (i.e. thousands or millions of years ago when the climate first got that cold). Interesting enough, if you're going to get so very hyper-factual by bringing physics into the argument, it might interest you to know that there's water in the air and that's where frost comes from. But for that to actually happen, the air has to be cold first, otherwise you just get mildew. I never thought that the fact that ice is solid water was "hyper"-factual, as opposed to just factual. Nor is it "modern science" that the ancients were unaware of. (Seriously, if the ancients really were as stupid as people on these boards sometimes portray them as, they wouldn't have survived long enough to become moderns in the first place.) For Pelor's sake, it's a damn fantasy game. Get off your high horse. The fact that it's a "damn fantasy game" doesn't mean that questions of suspension of disbelief based on consistency never arise. (I know ripvanwormer likes to call it a "ridiculous" reductio ad absurdum, but really -- if you can call the Quasielemental Plane of Monkeys "ridiculous", then I can call the Paraelemental Plane of Ice "ridiculous". Because it *is* ridiculous.) FWIW, real physics doesn't have to come into it -- if you *really want* the D&D definition of air to be "cold air", then the Elemental Plane of Air should be bitingly, freezingly cold. If the Elemental Plane of Air instead contains room-temperature air, then the combination of said room-temperature air with room-temperature water indeed would *not* be cold enough to make ice, would it? (Similarly, associating cold damage with Water rather than Air starts to look like a mistake.) Sure, yes, it's "fantasy". It's "quirky". That doesn't mean that when someone asks "Why does this make sense?" the appropriate answer isn't "It doesn't make sense" -- and the fact that people seem to constantly avoid giving that answer when it's the *obvious* answer is what bothers me.
yrogerg 12-25-07, 04:28 AM	It contains solid air in the form of cold. And air is always cold, that's why, no matter what, when you combine air with water it makes ice. That's why the top few inches of the ocean is always frozen. Look outside, noob. And your so called "experiment" with the bubbles didn't work because bubbles are, as everyone knows, made of magma. :heehee
Kojiro James 12-25-07, 02:07 PM	In the case of permafrost, this isn't true -- there never was any "available oxygen" because it's *permafrost* -- the ground stays frozen all year and has been frozen ever since there was permafrost there (i.e. thousands or millions of years ago when the climate first got that cold). More like thousands, as the Earth seems to warm up every few millennia and cause that so-called permanent frost to melt. I never thought that the fact that ice is solid water was "hyper"-factual, as opposed to just factual. Nor is it "modern science" that the ancients were unaware of. (Seriously, if the ancients really were as stupid as people on these boards sometimes portray them as, they wouldn't have survived long enough to become moderns in the first place.) While they were correct about the Earth being round, they believed that everything revolved around it! They thought that wearing flowers around the neck prevented the plague! They thought that ulcers, disease, and aches and pains were caused by demons! It is practically a miracle that mankind has gotten as far as it has. Hell, most of France still thinks the Sun revolves around the Earth. The fact that it's a "damn fantasy game" doesn't mean that questions of suspension of disbelief based on consistency never arise. (I know ripvanwormer likes to call it a "ridiculous" reductio ad absurdum, but really -- if you can call the Quasielemental Plane of Monkeys "ridiculous", then I can call the Paraelemental Plane of Ice "ridiculous". Because it *is* ridiculous.) I thought the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Monkeys was cool. FWIW, real physics doesn't have to come into it -- if you *really want* the D&D definition of air to be "cold air", then the Elemental Plane of Air should be bitingly, freezingly cold. They could have had wind chill in mind. Wind is often colder than the rest of the air (which makes it so relaxing to feel on hot summer days). Furthermore, Mr. Gygax may have also been thinking "snow and hail, which are ice, fall from the sky, which is dominated by air, and snow and hail are made from frozen rain which is water." Sure, it's a bit wonky... but also makes a twisted sort of sense. After all, magma isn't really fire and earth mixed, it's just superheated rock like ice is frozen water. But it's hot, and fire is hot... so....
ArcTan 12-25-07, 02:48 PM	More like thousands, as the Earth seems to warm up every few millennia and cause that so-called permanent frost to melt. I'm pretty sure Antarctica has had permafrost for as long as Antarctica's been situated at the South Pole. While they were correct about the Earth being round, they believed that everything revolved around it! They thought that wearing flowers around the neck prevented the plague! They thought that ulcers, disease, and aches and pains were caused by demons! It is practically a miracle that mankind has gotten as far as it has. Hell, most of France still thinks the Sun revolves around the Earth. It's easier to be ignorant about things that aren't amenable to obvious trial-and-error -- living things are a big part of this. Even today we're a lot less sure about most things we know about living things (disease and health) than how, say, freezing and melting works. They could have had wind chill in mind. Wind is often colder than the rest of the air (which makes it so relaxing to feel on hot summer days). Wind isn't actually colder than still air. It's just that when air is moving it increases what is called the "heat flux" of air -- it increases the rate at which you lose heat to the surrounding air. You *feel* more cool when there's wind because you are, in fact, much warmer than the air around you (98.6 degrees and all) and therefore you're always bleeding off heat. It's the same reason metal always feels cooler when a person touches it than wood, even when they're exactly the same temperature. (As long as the metal is *cooler* than you and causing you to *lose* heat, that is -- if the metal and wood are both hot, then the metal feels hotter than the wood.) The upshot is that "wind chill" is something human beings feel, but not something that actually changes temperature. Air that isn't actually cold enough to freeze water won't freeze it if you accelerate it to hurricane-force winds. Hence why hurricanes don't leave trails of ice in their wake. How clearly the ancients understood this is debatable, but they did clearly understand that wind wasn't necessarily "cold" (Boreas, the North Wind, freezes things and Zephyr, the West Wind, warms things up, and these qualities don't change based on how hard or soft they blow.) Furthermore, Mr. Gygax may have also been thinking "snow and hail, which are ice, fall from the sky, which is dominated by air, and snow and hail are made from frozen rain which is water." Well, rain also falls from the sky -- in our part of the world, it falls from the sky more than snow and hail. Also, the sun comes from the sky, which is warm. I'm not disputing that you could do something with the basic *idea* that "Air" represents freezing cold because it represents the upper heights of the void where everything is cold, etc. I've seen that before. Some fantasy links the idea of cold and ice powers with the heights of Heaven and the idea of fire powers with the depths of Hell, etc. But D&D would have to change a lot of things to be consistent with this, like making the Elemental Plane of Air itself cold. Sure, it's a bit wonky... but also makes a twisted sort of sense. After all, magma isn't really fire and earth mixed, it's just superheated rock like ice is frozen water. But it's hot, and fire is hot... so.... Well, that's the thing. Abstracting the element of "Fire" to just mean "heat" *does* work in D&D. "Fire damage" means all damage caused by heat, the Plane of Fire can be home to all manner of hot things, etc. "Air = Cold" *doesn't* work. It could be made to work, but, like I said, it would involve changing a lot of things.
Kojiro James 12-25-07, 03:30 PM	"Air = Cold" *doesn't* work. It could be made to work, but, like I said, it would involve changing a lot of things. But "Wind = Cold" DOES work, as there are rules for wind chill. And if you deny that wind is part of air in D&D, I shall point to you all of the air creatures with wind attacks. It doesn't matter if wind isn't actually cold IRL. Your character will feel the wind chill and go "brrr, that's cold" regardless. Merely living in a temperate zone and not farther south, I've never felt a warm wind, so it's not difficult to wrap my mind around such a concept.
yrogerg 12-25-07, 04:01 PM	But "Wind = Cold" DOES work, as there are rules for wind chill. And if you deny that wind is part of air in D&D, I shall point to you all of the air creatures with wind attacks. It doesn't matter if wind isn't actually cold IRL. Your character will feel the wind chill and go "brrr, that's cold" regardless. Merely living in a temperate zone and not farther south, I've never felt a warm wind, so it's not difficult to wrap my mind around such a concept. Water does the same thing, too. Wind chills because it carries heat away from the body. Water chills because it carries heat away from the body, too, and does so in a vastly more dramatic and effective way: Wind chill only becomes a serious issue for humans when the air temperature is very close to or already at the freezing point of water, or with extremely high-speed winds. By contrast, water -even slow-moving water- doesn't even need to be close to freezing; water temperatures of 50 degrees Fahrenheit or so are enough to cause hypothermia. Water's heat capacity allow it to draw heat away from the body at a much faster rate than air does. In fact, most of the cooling effect the *wind* has has more to do with the rate at which water evaporates off the skin (drawing excess heat with it) than it does with the *air* temperature. This is the reason why in especially humid conditions, even the wind isn't all that much of a relief. Your sweat doesn't evaporate, so you don't feel cooler. For wind chill to actually cause water to freeze, the standing air would already need to be nearly at the temperature of the water in question, begging the original question of where all that cold is actually coming from. Otherwise, it would be the water that was drawing the heat away from the air, what with relative motion being equivalent, and all. This is why water's such an effective buffer against extremes in temperature. So, Wind Chill! doesn't really cut it as an explanation, either.
ArcTan 12-26-07, 04:21 AM	But "Wind = Cold" DOES work, as there are rules for wind chill. And if you deny that wind is part of air in D&D, I shall point to you all of the air creatures with wind attacks. It doesn't matter if wind isn't actually cold IRL. Your character will feel the wind chill and go "brrr, that's cold" regardless. Merely living in a temperate zone and not farther south, I've never felt a warm wind, so it's not difficult to wrap my mind around such a concept. Anyone who's spent any time traveling *would* find it *quite* difficult to wrap their minds around such a concept (that concept being "wind = cold"). Including D&D characters, who do experience such things as tropical hurricanes (Stormwrack) and blisteringly hot dust storms (Sandstorm). Again, if you want "Wind = Cold", and "Air = Wind", the Elemental Plane of Air should be very cold and constantly windy (which it isn't). Again, I'm not even really arguing against "Air = Cold" as a concept (though it wouldn't be my first choice for that concept) -- I'm arguing that D&D *doesn't* commit to that concept, which is why the Plane of Ice is such a jarring sore thumb. If wind-based spells routinely did cold damage, cold damage was associated with the element of Air, and the Elemental Plane of Air were itself extremely windy and cold, this would make sense fine. I'd disagree with it, but it wouldn't be inconsistent. But IT DOESN'T. The idea that Air + Water = Ice comes literally *out of nowhere* and sticks out jarringly and really annoyingly, especially since, from a practical standpoint, Air and Water are the two *most* hospitable D&D Elemental Planes and yet they randomly have one of the most intrinsically-inimical-to-life Paraelemental Planes sticking between them. (D&D *isn't* saying "cold air + lukewarm water = ice", it's saying "lukewarm air + lukewarm water = ice", which is stupid and obviously false.) Look at it this way -- Paraelemental Magma makes some sense. The Plane of Fire is nasty because it's really, really hot. The Plane of Earth is nasty because it's filled with rock and you have nowhere to stand. The Plane of Magma is therefore *both* really, really hot and filled with magma so you have nowhere to stand. Makes sense. By contrast, nothing about the room-temperature Plane of Air and the room-temperature Plane of Water would give you any inkling that sitting right between them is a plane you can't survive on for more than a few minutes without cold immunity.
dawnbringer 12-26-07, 06:47 AM	Actually, the plane of magma has a surface, just like the plane of fire does.
sciborg3 12-26-07, 12:31 PM	Not that this is really more logical, but I figured it was Air and Water combining on a more base level. Whatever the D&D/alchemical version of "molecular" would be. At that base level, the "molecules" of Air and Water dance together and this gives us Ice. This is also why, when Earth molecules are excited by positive energy we get mineral, etc. I think the question is would I want to replace the quasi- or para- with anything else and I find I'd rather just not use them. For me its nostalgia - the first Dragon magazine I remember picking up discussed the quasi-elementals.