Post/Author/DateTime	Post
supernerd222 05-04-07, 02:58 PM	It's the only outer plane with an energy trait of any sort. Why? I understand how Minor Positive Dominant fits with Ysgard: people return to life every morning if they die, and the whole place is really loud and colourful. I also understand the mechanical difficulties of an outer plane with a minor negative trait. But it just bothers me. In all other respects, the planes are quite symmetrical. In fact, part of the point of the outer planes is that they're symmetric. They're arranged in a circle, which is a shape with infinite symmetry. Logic says that if one plane is "close" to the positive energy plane, another should be "close" to the negative energy plane. Ysgard is opposite Acheron, which actually kind of fits with a negative dominant trait. Or, the negative one could be Carceri, which in my opinion fits the minor negative dominant trait best, what with it being a prison, and the god of death living there. So I guess two questions: Why does Ysgard have an energy trait? It could still be loud and exciting and grant life to the dead at the end of the day without it. And, given that Ysgard does have a positive energy trait, why does no plane have a minor negative trait, thus throwing off the symmetry of the outer planes?
Khoran 05-04-07, 03:20 PM	Ysgard, I believe, is based of Norse Legends. It was where Warriors went when they died, so they could do battle endlessly without fear of permenant death. Those who fell were revived the next day (hence the possitive energy traint). It was supposed to be a heaven where one did battle endlessly for ammusement durring the day, and then came back and feasted in the evening. As for a negative energy trait, I have no idea why no plane has it, possibly so that planar travel there would be possible.
ripvanwormer 05-04-07, 05:46 PM	First of all, Ysgard isn't the only Outer Plane with an energy trait. Elysium also has the minor positive-dominant trait, and Thanatos (in the Abyss) has the minor negative-dominant trait. Secondly, it's not "real" positive energy. There are no elements, energy, or inner planar substance of any kind on the Outer Planes. The Outer Planes are places of spirit, not energy or matter - the spiritual substance of the Outer Planes mimics the attributes of such things, that's all. Calling a given plane positive-dominant or fire-dominant or whatever is just convenient shorthand for this. Ysgard, because of the plane's love of life married to glory, has effects similar to a plane flush with positive energy - it's close enough to use the same game mechanics. But it's really no different from any other strange effect that manifests the unique philosophy of a given plane, like the fact that a new soul can't enter Acheron unless an older soul is destroyed, or the entrapping nature of Carceri or the maddening effect of Pandemonium. In second edition, Ysgard wasn't given an energy trait because the traits weren't standardized; it just had the rule that those who die heroically come back to life the next day. In a way, it's the opposite of Acheron's "conservation of souls" rule. The 3e Manual of the Planes gave it an energy trait as part of its campaign to simplify and standardize the planes - some would say to dumb them down. I don't particularly mind in this case, however. Finally, I would opine that symmetry is overrated. Gehenna is the antithesis of the Beastlands is some ways, but this can be taken too far; they're also completely different planes with very different histories. Some amount of symmetry is interesting, but making it the overriding design philosophy robs the planes of their diversity and hamstrings creativity. The circle is a metaphor, a theme, but it shouldn't be allowed to constrain anything. Symmetry is not part of the point of the planes.
Runepriest 05-05-07, 12:25 PM	Where does it say that a new soul can't enter Acheron unless an older one is destroyed?
supernerd222 05-05-07, 10:20 PM	Rip: (Oops, I forgot the positive trait of Elysium.) I still don't agree on your vision of the outer planes being made of "spirit". the whole premise of an elemental or energy trait, as laid out on page 12 of MotP is that the place is dominated by one of the elements that make up everything. Not an analogy of the element or energy,but the real deal. On symmetry, however, I agree that symmetry should not be the only theme of the planes, however point out that symmetry is such a huge part of the planes that it has to count as part of the point. Ever noticed how the alignments are arranged, for example? Starting from Limbo and moving clockwise, with the alignments represented by their first letter: CCCC, CCCE, CCEE, CEEE, EEEE, LEEE, LLEE, LLLE, LLLL, LLLG, LLGG, LGGG, GGGG, CGGG, CCGG, CCCG, and for the Outlands, LCEG. With a four part system, four parts of the same alignment resulting in a strong alignment trait, two or three of the same resulting in a mild alignment trait, and one resulting in a tendancy, the planes can be represented with a regular and very symmetric pattern. Or consider the content of the planes themselves, and a symmetry between opposite planes can be found. Like the Beastlands-Gehenna that you pointed out. Also Ysgard, which is bright, "fun" battles and tournaments, compared to Acheron, where the battles are bleak and neverending. Or Carceri, the jail of the planes sitting across from Bytopia, where the gnomes play pranks on each other and do whatever they want. I think that symmetry is a huge theme in the planes. And this isn't a problem because I think only a bad DM would ever let symmetry get in the way of a good adventure. But Elysium and Ysgard's positive traits just set the whole theme of equality and underlying neutrility off.
ripvanwormer 05-06-07, 06:06 PM	Where does it say that a new soul can't enter Acheron unless an older one is destroyed? That's from Planes of Law. It helps explain the vicious, neverending war there.
ripvanwormer 05-06-07, 06:21 PM	I still don't agree on your vision of the outer planes being made of "spirit". That's the difference between an outer plane and an inner plane. The outer planes are spirit and ideas, while the inner planes are energy and elements. The Material Plane, in the middle, partakes of both, the archetypes of the Outer Planes providing form for Inner Planar substance. Not an analogy of the element or energy,but the real deal. No, that's like saying that hit point damage always represents physical wounds, rather than exhaustion, luck, and all the other things abstract game mechanics can represent. Planar traits are game mechanics, nothing more; they're abstractions not meant to be taken literally. They're always analogies. The Outer Planes, remember, are much older than the 3e MotP, so trying to deduce what their "whole premise" is based on game mechanics new to that book is going to be misleading. however point out that symmetry is such a huge part of the planes I don't deny that symmetry exists (and I've made much of it in the past - not just the dichotomies and four-part structures you've identified but more complex triads inspired by the color wheel), but there's a huge difference between noting symmetry and insisting on it. The first is useful, the latter unnecessarily limiting. But Elysium and Ysgard's positive traits just set the whole theme of equality and underlying neutrility off. Only if you take them literally, which you must not do. I think the MotP's system of traits is somewhat clumsy anyway, useful as a demonstration of how a creative DM might use them to design new planes but not so useful in explaining the planes as they already exist.
ArcTan 05-06-07, 07:00 PM	Secondly, it's not "real" positive energy. There are no elements, energy, or inner planar substance of any kind on the Outer Planes. The Outer Planes are places of spirit, not energy or matter - the spiritual substance of the Outer Planes mimics the attributes of such things, that's all. That's going a little far, isn't it? If the four elements don't *exist* on the Outer Planes, how is it that elemental mages can still use their powers, [Fire] descriptor spells still function normally, etc.? It's like saying that spirit and mind don't exist at all on the Inner Planes, even though the Inner Planes *do* contain sentient beings, divine magic and even a few gods.
ripvanwormer 05-06-07, 07:08 PM	That's going a little far, isn't it? Not at all. If the four elements don't *exist* on the Outer Planes, how is it that elemental mages can still use their powers, On the Outer Planes, those spells create "pseudo-elements" from the substance of the Outer Planes. It's like saying that spirit and mind don't exist at all on the Inner Planes It would be like that if you assume everything is perfectly symmetrical. Since the multiverse is not perfectly symmetrical, you can assume one without assuming the other. The Inner Planes contain intelligent races and even gods and souls, but these are somewhat anomalous there. The Outer Planes lack even space and distance (they contain only the ideas of space and distance), so there is no room for true elements.
ArcTan 05-06-07, 11:56 PM	Not at all. On the Outer Planes, those spells create "pseudo-elements" from the substance of the Outer Planes. Okay, so can we hear a source for this, or is this your own fanon talking? It would be like that if you assume everything is perfectly symmetrical. Since the multiverse is not perfectly symmetrical, you can assume one without assuming the other. The Inner Planes contain intelligent races and even gods and souls, but these are somewhat anomalous there. The Outer Planes lack even space and distance (they contain only the ideas of space and distance), so there is no room for true elements. This was my impression about the Astral Plane but not the Outer Planes in general. I would figure that you actually can measure the distance between two buildings in Arcadia and come back later and it'd still be the same physical distance, in miles (as opposed to a fluctuating number based on the "speed of thought" in the Astral).
ripvanwormer 05-07-07, 11:47 AM	Okay, so can we hear a source for this, or is this your own fanon talking? That's based on the rule for summoning elementals on the Outer Planes, from the Planescape boxed set (which is where the word "pseudo-elemental" comes from). Also, it's necessary to keep the Outer Planes from being mere variant material planes. Also, my fanon rocks you. There needs to be something that makes an Outer Plane different from a Material Plane. The fact that Outer Planes are made of belief and Material Planes are made of elements is one of those things. This is the true significance of the "divinely morphic" trait - it represents a completely different mode of being. Anything less is, well, a travesty. The afterlife made of mere mortal clay, souls burned with gross physical flame? That's not an afterlife at all, not the exalted planes of the eternal spirit - it's just a silly alien planet where the natives have horns or wings. It goes against not just the D&D lore on those locations, but all the real-life mythological lore on the subject. To even consider for a moment that the Outer Planes are made of the same substances as the mortal realms is beyond banal, existing in some filthy sub-basement that wishes it could one day strive to achieve the heights that mere banality starts out at. This isn't one of those situations where I can say something like, "Oh, ha ha, let's agree to disagree, because we both have approaches to the subject that are equally valid." Nuh-uh. The cold, iron-clad fact of the matter is that your opinion is terrible and my opinion is the sole shining hope that can save you from drowning ignominiously in your own ignorance. It is vital for the sake of humanity that you be convinced of this. I would figure that you actually can measure the distance between two buildings in Arcadia and come back later and it'd still be the same physical distance, in miles (as opposed to a fluctuating number based on the "speed of thought" in the Astral). Oh, gods, no, quite the opposite. There are no "miles" in the Outer Planes (although 3e sources occasionally use those units, Planescape sources never did) - distances are measured in travel times, and they vary radically from visit to visit. For example, the town of Ironridge in the Outlands may be found anywhere between the fifth and eighth rings outward from the Spire. The travel time between any two adjacent sites in the Outlands is 3-18 days, no matter whether you're walking or taking a flying ship capable of moving to the outermost planet in your system in a day, the travel time is always equally long, and equally random. Things shift and change according to the tides of belief, and the same locations may appear radically different depending on who is looking at them. Travel times in other planes have more to do with your mental state than such mundane matters as how good the road is or whether you're on a horse or a locomotive. Those who do good deeds in Elysium end up where they intended to go, while those who do wicked deeds end up mired in briars and thorns. Those who betray their companions travel through Carceri more efficiently, and the only way to get where you want to go in the Gray Waste is to not care if you get there or not. This is because you're traveling through ideas, not physical places.
Beau 05-07-07, 02:57 PM	So are the outer planes similar to the matrix, with each outer plane having it's own set or programming rules......how about a prestige class that is a "meta-matrix" planar rule changer?
supernerd222 05-07-07, 03:23 PM	That's based on the rule for summoning elementals on the Outer Planes, from the Planescape boxed set (which is where the word "pseudo-elemental" comes from). I play 3.5. Using anything from planescape is cool, I do it all the time, but you have to remember that citing Planescape is exactly as official these days as THAC0. Which is to say not official. Therefore, there is no evidence under the current ruleset that the outer planes are some kind of imaginary LSD trip, as you seem to be suggesting. There needs to be something that makes an Outer Plane different from a Material Plane. Theres no gigantic donuts floating above infinitley tall antimatter towers ruled by an enigmatic and infinitley powerful matriarch in any material plane I've heard of. Anything less is, well, a travesty. The afterlife made of mere mortal clay, souls burned with gross physical flame? You have to remember that while the outer planes are an afterlife, in the sense that there are once-living petitioners there, they are not only an afterlife. In fact, an afterlife is only a small part of their function. They are the home of the dieties, and the dieties would likely be PO'd if you described their homes as "Where the dead guys go." They are a place where many non-dead people live. I'd say it would be a travesty to dismiss the outer planes as a simple afterlife. That's not an afterlife at all, Good call. This isn't one of those situations where I can say something like, "Oh, ha ha, let's agree to disagree, because we both have approaches to the subject that are equally valid." Nuh-uh. The cold, iron-clad fact of the matter is that your opinion is terrible and my opinion is the sole shining hope that can save you from drowning ignominiously in your own ignorance. It is vital for the sake of humanity that you be convinced of this. :mymy: Oh, gods, no, quite the opposite. There are no "miles" in the Outer Planes (although 3e sources occasionally use those units, Planescape sources never did) Planescape is not a 3.x campaign setting. Planescape is a relic that has a lot of good ideas for flavour, fluff, storylines, and the like, but can no longer be called RAW.
Witch 05-07-07, 03:31 PM	Rip, I just want to say that that post made my day. Aside from that, it also clarified a lot; thanks.
ripvanwormer 05-07-07, 04:12 PM	Which is to say not official. You can't dismiss game lore just because it wasn't published in the most recent edition. You mustn't, because pretending the present rules were created in a vacuum will always result in you being confused about what they mean and how they're intended to be implemented. It will result in threads like this one, where you wonder what's up with the MotP rules because you're unaware of their proper context. Context, as they say, is key. The Outer Planes are not "some kind of imaginary LSD trip." They're real, but they're made of the accumulated beliefs of all the planes, made solid and reified. They're also subjective and strange, shifting and surreal. Theres no gigantic donuts floating above infinitley tall antimatter towers ruled by an enigmatic and infinitley powerful matriarch in any material plane I've heard of. Those are just fashion accessories; they don't address the fundamental nuts and bolts, the ontological issues of what makes the planes what they are. Why, exactly, are the Outer Planes a place where there can be infinitely tall mountains which nonetheless have tops visible from the ground? The Material Plane has a number of gigantic donuts, incidently - for example, the world of Torus, which is a toroidal planet described in the Spelljammer accessor Practical Planetology. The plane is more varied than you seem to think, which means that what exactly it is has got to be a deeper question than what toys you've dropped into it. There are cube-shaped worlds like the cubes of Acheron, tree-shaped worlds like Yggdrasil, and yes, there are cosmically huge spires. There are fire worlds, air worlds, water worlds, and earth worlds. What makes these things different from their equivalents on the Inner and Outer Planes? That's an interesting question, and one deserving of an answer. Fortunately, an answer exists. As for infinitely powerful matriarchs, I'm not aware of any. The Lady of Pain's power is apparently godlike, but it's not known to be infinite. There's no reason to think she's more powerful than matriarchal greater goddesses who dwell on the Material Plane (like Gaea and Beory). You have to remember that while the outer planes are an afterlife, in the sense that there are once-living petitioners there, they are not only an afterlife. Indeed. Primarily, first and foremost, they're the physical manifestation of belief. This fact draws souls and gods to them, but neither souls nor gods are their primary reason for existing. At the same time, they are the afterlife, and everything I said holds. But the fact that they're the planes of belief is the real reason why everything I said is true - fire in the Outer Planes is the concept of fire, the Cat Lord is the concept of cats, the Spire is the idea of centers, the idea of infinity, and the idea of mountains wrapped into one. It's also a mystery, placed there by powers unknown, unclassifiable, the beliefs that engendered it among the greatest of secrets.
Alpha_Moose 05-07-07, 05:56 PM	Indeed. Primarily, first and foremost, they're the physical manifestation of belief. Ok, now this seems like something that is very original to D&D. The idea that thoughts, feelings, and beliefs actually change a physical world. I can't really think of RL mythologies were the gods' power fluctuated because of the amount of worshipers they had, or that the 'afterlife' will actually change size or shape depending on people's moods (as an oversimplification). So are the outer planes similar to the matrix, with each outer plane having it's own set or programming rules......how about a prestige class that is a "meta-matrix" planar rule changer? The Planar Shepard (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=709233) from Magic of Eberron is similar to that. It's easily one of the most broken PrC made (still a cool idea though).
Skeptical Clown 05-08-07, 10:11 AM	Anything less is, well, a travesty. The afterlife made of mere mortal clay, souls burned with gross physical flame? That's not an afterlife at all, not the exalted planes of the eternal spirit - it's just a silly alien planet where the natives have horns or wings. It goes against not just the D&D lore on those locations, but all the real-life mythological lore on the subject. In fact, it doesn't. The concept of afterlife predates the concept of spirit (or more appropriately a "soul" which is separate from the body) in many religions--including religions whose beliefs have shaped the "Great Wheel" cosmology. Elaborate funerary practices like mummification reflect this--a practice that assumes that the dead might need to make use of their bodies.
ArcTan 05-08-07, 10:11 PM	You can't dismiss game lore just because it wasn't published in the most recent edition. You mustn't, because pretending the present rules were created in a vacuum will always result in you being confused about what they mean and how they're intended to be implemented. It will result in threads like this one, where you wonder what's up with the MotP rules because you're unaware of their proper context. Context, as they say, is key. On the other hand, "pseudo-elementals" definitely don't exist anymore in 3.5 rules, and it's kind of easier and simpler to not run them. And I think it's just as easy for the flavor to simply say "The Outer Planes are defined by belief and ideas" without going into this nonsense about how while you're there you're not made of molecules but belief-ecules and so on, when that doesn't actually affect anything gamewise. (So, what, if I plane shift to the Outer Planes, is my body there still made out of real atoms, or is it now made out of belief-atoms? And if the latter, where did the real atoms of my body *go*? And if the former, how is it I can still breathe the air and eat the food even though my body's made out of "crude clay"?)
ArcTan 05-08-07, 10:13 PM	Anything less is, well, a travesty. The afterlife made of mere mortal clay, souls burned with gross physical flame? That's not an afterlife at all, not the exalted planes of the eternal spirit - it's just a silly alien planet where the natives have horns or wings. It goes against not just the D&D lore on those locations, but all the real-life mythological lore on the subject. To even consider for a moment that the Outer Planes are made of the same substances as the mortal realms is beyond banal, existing in some filthy sub-basement that wishes it could one day strive to achieve the heights that mere banality starts out at. This isn't one of those situations where I can say something like, "Oh, ha ha, let's agree to disagree, because we both have approaches to the subject that are equally valid." Nuh-uh. The cold, iron-clad fact of the matter is that your opinion is terrible and my opinion is the sole shining hope that can save you from drowning ignominiously in your own ignorance. It is vital for the sake of humanity that you be convinced of this. Uh huh. I'm not gonna bother to suss out exactly how sarcastic you're being here, but nonetheless, you're putting a lot more energy into defending something that really is just your interpretation of an obsolete rule from a particular campaign setting than I think is necessary.
supernerd222 05-10-07, 02:57 PM	Not to mention that normal interpreetation of current rules explicity states that the outer planes are no different than the material plane in terms of composition. Like in the "Inner Planes" chapter where it says that the inner planes are the forces that make up the rest of the universe.
ripvanwormer 05-12-07, 01:32 PM	In fact, it doesn't. The concept of afterlife predates the concept of spirit (or more appropriately a "soul" which is separate from the body) in many religions--including religions whose beliefs have shaped the "Great Wheel" cosmology. Elaborate funerary practices like mummification reflect this--a practice that assumes that the dead might need to make use of their bodies. While the ancient Egyptians thought the state of the body influenced the state of the soul, they didn't believe they were the same thing - that's why they invented the concepts of ba and ka. In fact, the concept of a soul is integral to any concept of an afterlife (other than bodily resurrection, or simply moldering, half-aware, in your literal tomb). Anyone with eyes can see a corpse isn't doing much of interest - speculating about a true afterlife requires the idea that something's going on beyond what you can see, something beyond the literal flesh. If you believe the dead exist in some place other than their tombs, you believe in a soul. You believe in something that is not made of the elements and flesh.
ripvanwormer 05-12-07, 01:39 PM	Not to mention that normal interpreetation of current rules explicity states that the outer planes are no different than the material plane in terms of composition. Like in the "Inner Planes" chapter where it says that the inner planes are the forces that make up the rest of the universe. A couple of points. 1. The universe is not the multiverse. 2. The first point bears repeating. The universe is the Material Plane. The multiverse, or the cosmology, is all the planes. 3. I care less about what the rules say than I think is a good idea.