Wouldn't a Paladins Mount be an Outsider? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wouldn't a Paladins Mount be an Outsider? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
felinoel
03-04-07, 12:08 PM I mean, it is from another plane right?
Arturius1
03-04-07, 12:30 PM No necesarily. The mount is stored on another plane, but it can come from anywhere.
Evil DM Mk3
03-04-07, 12:53 PM It is an animal from another plane at best, but it is an animal.
Gray Richardson
03-04-07, 01:55 PM A paladin's mount is a normal animal. It is not celestial nor an outsider. It merely resides in a celestial plane, but I don't think it has the extraplanar subtype. As such, I do not think it can be banished or hedged out.

The mount is probably from a herd of terrestrial horses that have been brought to the celestial planes by the paladin's god to serve as mounts.

The ability that brings a mount to the material plane does not appear to be similar to any of the summon monster spells. A paladin's mount can be slain. If it is killed it does not return to the celestial realms unharmed, as in a summon monster spell. We are told that the effect of calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect. Because it actually brings the animal to the material plane (it's not a virtual monster as in a summoning spell) the magic might be more like a plane shift or gate effect, but with a temporary duration.
felinoel
03-04-07, 02:33 PM so it couldnt count as an outsider? :( now i gotta change my webcomic

A paladin's mount is a normal animal. It is not celestial nor an outsider. It merely resides in a celestial plane, but I don't think it has the extraplanar subtype. As such, I do not think it can be banished or hedged out.

The mount is probably from a herd of terrestrial horses that have been brought to the celestial planes by the paladin's god to serve as mounts.

The ability that brings a mount to the material plane does not appear to be similar to any of the summon monster spells. A paladin's mount can be slain. If it is killed it does not return to the celestial realms unharmed, as in a summon monster spell. We are told that the effect of calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect. Because it actually brings the animal to the material plane (it's not a virtual monster as in a summoning spell) the magic might be more like a plane shift or gate effect, but with a temporary duration.well the mount in question is a paladin of freedom's mount, so it wouldnt be from Celestia, it would be from Ysgard or something
ripvanwormer
03-04-07, 05:29 PM Not everything from another plane is an outsider. Celestial animals are just animals. There's a long list of non-outsider creatures from other planes: githzerai and githyanki; celestial, axiomatic, fiendish, anarchic, and elemental beasts; fhorges, khaastas, devourers, nightshades, maugs, inevitables... the list goes on and on.

Outsiders are, for the most part, spiritual creatures made of the same substance as the soul. They can come from any plane, including the Material Plane.

Beings from a plane other than the one they're on get the extraplanar subtype. They can be humanoids, outsiders, constructs, fey, undead, aberrations, animals, magical beasts, or any other creature type.
felinoel
03-04-07, 06:37 PM Not everything from another plane is an outsider. Celestial animals are just animals. There's a long list of non-outsider creatures from other planes: githzerai and githyanki; celestial, axiomatic, fiendish, anarchic, and elemental beasts; fhorges, khaastas, devourers, nightshades, maugs, inevitables... the list goes on and on.

Outsiders are, for the most part, spiritual creatures made of the same substance as the soul. They can come from any plane, including the Material Plane.

Beings from a plane other than the one they're on get the extraplanar subtype. They can be humanoids, outsiders, constructs, fey, undead, aberrations, animals, magical beasts, or any other creature type.oh? then my webcomic might only need a minor alteration, could you explain the extraplanar subtype then?
ripvanwormer
03-04-07, 07:04 PM Quote from the SRD:

Extraplanar Subtype

A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.
felinoel
03-04-07, 09:07 PM Quote from the SRD:wait a minute, but someone else said that the paladin's god takes the horse from the material realm to another plane suited for the paladin's alignment to wait until needed, so (in the case of a regular paladin's mount) Celestia would NOT be its native plane right? So it wouldnt be extraplanar in the material realm right?
ripvanwormer
03-05-07, 12:47 AM wait a minute, but someone else said that the paladin's god takes the horse from the material realm to another plane suited for the paladin's alignment to wait until needed, so (in the case of a regular paladin's mount) Celestia would NOT be its native plane right?

I don't know. The sample stats for a paladin's warhorse on page 45 of the Player's Handbook (v. 3.5) don't indicate the extraplanar subtype. Can we deduce from this that the horses are actually natives of the Material Plane? We probably can, if we assume this isn't a mistake.

To me, the idea that some random ordinary horse is abducted from the Material Plane and "stored" on another plane is very odd, and results in all sorts of uncomfortable questions. Who or what brings the horse to the Upper Planes? Does the horse have a choice in the matter? If the horse had a previous owner, is this owner compensated when his or her horse disappears? How are horses chosen for this purpose? What happens if the paladin dies? Why keep it in the Upper Planes at all?

Of course, that's not the only possible interpretation. The term "native plane" is never defined in D&D - does it mean the plane where the creature was born on or the plane where the creature's ancestors were born on? Or some other criterion? Would a tiefling born in the Abyss be considered extraplanar while on the Material Plane? Strictly according to the rules, no - tieflings are considered natives of the Material Plane, period, and the rules give no exception for those born elsewhere. However, there's enough wiggle room in the rules that a DM might rule differently.

So it's perfectly possible that a group of celestials or other planar beings brought a herd of Material Planar horses to Mount Celestia long ago and have been breeding them there to use as paladin mounts. Most likely, this herd would be in or near the First Monastery of the Planes-Militant in Solania, which is said to be the source of paladins' powers. Even after hundreds of generations, it's possible that they're still considered to be natives of the Material Plane.

I personally think that, if neglecting to give the horses the extraplanar subtype wasn't simply a mistake, this is probably what they had in mind. Because the horses don't have the celestial template or another template that would make them extraplanar, it's assumed that, like all horses, they're considered Material Plane natives. As with tieflings, horses are natives to the Material Plane because the Monster Manual says they are, not because of where they're born.

If you decide to rule otherwise and say that a species should be considered natives of whatever plane they're born on (or even whatever plane they spend the most time on - note that githyanki are almost always born on the Material Plane, but are still considered extraplanar there) - then it'd make the most sense to give paladin steeds the extraplanar subtype.
Gray Richardson
03-05-07, 02:32 AM My personal interpretation is that the horses are considered natives of the material plane. When they are on their celestial planes they do have the extraplanar subtype because they are not from there, although it may be that they are born there.

Your native plane is not determined by where you are born. Material Plane creatures that give birth among the planes still have a baby that is native to the Material Plane.

There is lore to support that a population of Material planar creatures that settles in the planes takes many generations to become native to the plane they settled in. For instance, I believe the Shades did not become native to the Shadow Plane until after they had lived in the Shadow Plane for hundreds of years. I could probably find some other examples if I searched.

Likely, if a paladin's mount was encountered on the celestial plane it resides on, it would have the extraplanar subtype there and could be hedged out or banished to the Material Plane from whence it hailed. Even if the horse was a second or third or fourth generation horse that had been born in that plane and had never before seen the Material Plane, it should still (in theory) be able to be banished to the Material Plane.

Now, if a paladin has an exotic mount, such as a celestial hippogriff, I am betting that celestial template would make it an outsider and it would therefore be native to some celestial plane and could thus be banished or hedged out from the Material.
ripvanwormer
03-05-07, 03:04 AM For instance, I believe the Shades did not become native to the Shadow Plane until after they had lived in the Shadow Plane for hundreds of years.

Is there an official 3.5 version of the shade?

Regardless, the interaction between the outsider, native outsider, and extraplanar types is really complicated and contentious, and I'm not sure I'd draw any "lore" conclusions from the mechanics thereof. The system is a mess, frankly.
felinoel
03-05-07, 12:27 PM My personal interpretation is that the horses are considered natives of the material plane. When they are on their celestial planes they do have the extraplanar subtype because they are not from there, although it may be that they are born there.

Your native plane is not determined by where you are born. Material Plane creatures that give birth among the planes still have a baby that is native to the Material Plane.

There is lore to support that a population of Material planar creatures that settles in the planes takes many generations to become native to the plane they settled in. For instance, I believe the Shades did not become native to the Shadow Plane until after they had lived in the Shadow Plane for hundreds of years. I could probably find some other examples if I searched.

Likely, if a paladin's mount was encountered on the celestial plane it resides on, it would have the extraplanar subtype there and could be hedged out or banished to the Material Plane from whence it hailed. Even if the horse was a second or third or fourth generation horse that had been born in that plane and had never before seen the Material Plane, it should still (in theory) be able to be banished to the Material Plane.

Now, if a paladin has an exotic mount, such as a celestial hippogriff, I am betting that celestial template would make it an outsider and it would therefore be native to some celestial plane and could thus be banished or hedged out from the Material.No we are not talking about if it is extraplanar on the plane of Celestia, we are talking about if it is on the material plane

Is there an official 3.5 version of the shade?

Regardless, the interaction between the outsider, native outsider, and extraplanar types is really complicated and contentious, and I'm not sure I'd draw any "lore" conclusions from the mechanics thereof. The system is a mess, frankly.fine then, i will just say that a certain person who is currently calling the mount an outsider be just closeminded and thinks it is an outsider just because it 'comes' from another plane
Gray Richardson
03-05-07, 01:33 PM No we are not talking about if it is extraplanar on the plane of Celestia, we are talking about if it is on the material planeI understand. The answer is that it does not have the extraplanar subtype on the Material Plane because it is native to the Material Plane. When it is found on the celestial planes it does have the extraplanar subtype there because it is not "from" there even though it may reside there.

A paladin's horse is not in any way an outsider because it does not have the outsider type in it's stats.
felinoel
03-05-07, 05:42 PM I understand. The answer is that it does not have the extraplanar subtype on the Material Plane because it is native to the Material Plane. When it is found on the celestial planes it does have the extraplanar subtype there because it is not "from" there even though it may reside there.

A paladin's horse is not in any way an outsider because it does not have the outsider type in it's stats.

but still to some closeminded people they might call it an outsider
ArcTan
03-05-07, 10:18 PM but still to some closeminded people they might call it an outsider

And they would be wrong. An Outsider means a being made of pure belief or principle or spirit, not just that a being comes from another plane.
Gray Richardson
03-05-07, 10:40 PM If, for the purposes of your story you need or wish to allow someone to believe or mistake a paladin's mount for an outsider, then by all means go ahead and do so. If you need the mount to actually be an outsider, then by all means make him one.

If it is important to the story, plot or campaign you are writing, you have the power and the obligation to adjust the rules as you see fit. ;)
felinoel
03-05-07, 11:58 PM If, for the purposes of your story you need or wish to allow someone to believe or mistake a paladin's mount for an outsider, then by all means go ahead and do so. If you need the mount to actually be an outsider, then by all means make him one.

If it is important to the story, plot or campaign you are writing, you have the power and the obligation to adjust the rules as you see fit. ;)which is indeed what is happening, someone thinks that the mount is an outsider but the mount is not one, which also the paladin states it isnt an outsider also

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
felinoel 03-04-07, 12:08 PM	I mean, it is from another plane right?
Arturius1 03-04-07, 12:30 PM	No necesarily. The mount is stored on another plane, but it can come from anywhere.
Evil DM Mk3 03-04-07, 12:53 PM	It is an animal from another plane at best, but it is an animal.
Gray Richardson 03-04-07, 01:55 PM	A paladin's mount is a normal animal. It is not celestial nor an outsider. It merely resides in a celestial plane, but I don't think it has the extraplanar subtype. As such, I do not think it can be banished or hedged out. The mount is probably from a herd of terrestrial horses that have been brought to the celestial planes by the paladin's god to serve as mounts. The ability that brings a mount to the material plane does not appear to be similar to any of the summon monster spells. A paladin's mount can be slain. If it is killed it does not return to the celestial realms unharmed, as in a summon monster spell. We are told that the effect of calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect. Because it actually brings the animal to the material plane (it's not a virtual monster as in a summoning spell) the magic might be more like a plane shift or gate effect, but with a temporary duration.
felinoel 03-04-07, 02:33 PM	so it couldnt count as an outsider? :( now i gotta change my webcomic A paladin's mount is a normal animal. It is not celestial nor an outsider. It merely resides in a celestial plane, but I don't think it has the extraplanar subtype. As such, I do not think it can be banished or hedged out. The mount is probably from a herd of terrestrial horses that have been brought to the celestial planes by the paladin's god to serve as mounts. The ability that brings a mount to the material plane does not appear to be similar to any of the summon monster spells. A paladin's mount can be slain. If it is killed it does not return to the celestial realms unharmed, as in a summon monster spell. We are told that the effect of calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect. Because it actually brings the animal to the material plane (it's not a virtual monster as in a summoning spell) the magic might be more like a plane shift or gate effect, but with a temporary duration.well the mount in question is a paladin of freedom's mount, so it wouldnt be from Celestia, it would be from Ysgard or something
ripvanwormer 03-04-07, 05:29 PM	Not everything from another plane is an outsider. Celestial animals are just animals. There's a long list of non-outsider creatures from other planes: githzerai and githyanki; celestial, axiomatic, fiendish, anarchic, and elemental beasts; fhorges, khaastas, devourers, nightshades, maugs, inevitables... the list goes on and on. Outsiders are, for the most part, spiritual creatures made of the same substance as the soul. They can come from any plane, including the Material Plane. Beings from a plane other than the one they're on get the extraplanar subtype. They can be humanoids, outsiders, constructs, fey, undead, aberrations, animals, magical beasts, or any other creature type.
felinoel 03-04-07, 06:37 PM	Not everything from another plane is an outsider. Celestial animals are just animals. There's a long list of non-outsider creatures from other planes: githzerai and githyanki; celestial, axiomatic, fiendish, anarchic, and elemental beasts; fhorges, khaastas, devourers, nightshades, maugs, inevitables... the list goes on and on. Outsiders are, for the most part, spiritual creatures made of the same substance as the soul. They can come from any plane, including the Material Plane. Beings from a plane other than the one they're on get the extraplanar subtype. They can be humanoids, outsiders, constructs, fey, undead, aberrations, animals, magical beasts, or any other creature type.oh? then my webcomic might only need a minor alteration, could you explain the extraplanar subtype then?
ripvanwormer 03-04-07, 07:04 PM	Quote from the SRD: Extraplanar Subtype A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.
felinoel 03-04-07, 09:07 PM	Quote from the SRD:wait a minute, but someone else said that the paladin's god takes the horse from the material realm to another plane suited for the paladin's alignment to wait until needed, so (in the case of a regular paladin's mount) Celestia would NOT be its native plane right? So it wouldnt be extraplanar in the material realm right?
ripvanwormer 03-05-07, 12:47 AM	wait a minute, but someone else said that the paladin's god takes the horse from the material realm to another plane suited for the paladin's alignment to wait until needed, so (in the case of a regular paladin's mount) Celestia would NOT be its native plane right? I don't know. The sample stats for a paladin's warhorse on page 45 of the Player's Handbook (v. 3.5) don't indicate the extraplanar subtype. Can we deduce from this that the horses are actually natives of the Material Plane? We probably can, if we assume this isn't a mistake. To me, the idea that some random ordinary horse is abducted from the Material Plane and "stored" on another plane is very odd, and results in all sorts of uncomfortable questions. Who or what brings the horse to the Upper Planes? Does the horse have a choice in the matter? If the horse had a previous owner, is this owner compensated when his or her horse disappears? How are horses chosen for this purpose? What happens if the paladin dies? Why keep it in the Upper Planes at all? Of course, that's not the only possible interpretation. The term "native plane" is never defined in D&D - does it mean the plane where the creature was born on or the plane where the creature's ancestors were born on? Or some other criterion? Would a tiefling born in the Abyss be considered extraplanar while on the Material Plane? Strictly according to the rules, no - tieflings are considered natives of the Material Plane, period, and the rules give no exception for those born elsewhere. However, there's enough wiggle room in the rules that a DM might rule differently. So it's perfectly possible that a group of celestials or other planar beings brought a herd of Material Planar horses to Mount Celestia long ago and have been breeding them there to use as paladin mounts. Most likely, this herd would be in or near the First Monastery of the Planes-Militant in Solania, which is said to be the source of paladins' powers. Even after hundreds of generations, it's possible that they're still considered to be natives of the Material Plane. I personally think that, if neglecting to give the horses the extraplanar subtype wasn't simply a mistake, this is probably what they had in mind. Because the horses don't have the celestial template or another template that would make them extraplanar, it's assumed that, like all horses, they're considered Material Plane natives. As with tieflings, horses are natives to the Material Plane because the Monster Manual says they are, not because of where they're born. If you decide to rule otherwise and say that a species should be considered natives of whatever plane they're born on (or even whatever plane they spend the most time on - note that githyanki are almost always born on the Material Plane, but are still considered extraplanar there) - then it'd make the most sense to give paladin steeds the extraplanar subtype.
Gray Richardson 03-05-07, 02:32 AM	My personal interpretation is that the horses are considered natives of the material plane. When they are on their celestial planes they do have the extraplanar subtype because they are not from there, although it may be that they are born there. Your native plane is not determined by where you are born. Material Plane creatures that give birth among the planes still have a baby that is native to the Material Plane. There is lore to support that a population of Material planar creatures that settles in the planes takes many generations to become native to the plane they settled in. For instance, I believe the Shades did not become native to the Shadow Plane until after they had lived in the Shadow Plane for hundreds of years. I could probably find some other examples if I searched. Likely, if a paladin's mount was encountered on the celestial plane it resides on, it would have the extraplanar subtype there and could be hedged out or banished to the Material Plane from whence it hailed. Even if the horse was a second or third or fourth generation horse that had been born in that plane and had never before seen the Material Plane, it should still (in theory) be able to be banished to the Material Plane. Now, if a paladin has an exotic mount, such as a celestial hippogriff, I am betting that celestial template would make it an outsider and it would therefore be native to some celestial plane and could thus be banished or hedged out from the Material.
ripvanwormer 03-05-07, 03:04 AM	For instance, I believe the Shades did not become native to the Shadow Plane until after they had lived in the Shadow Plane for hundreds of years. Is there an official 3.5 version of the shade? Regardless, the interaction between the outsider, native outsider, and extraplanar types is really complicated and contentious, and I'm not sure I'd draw any "lore" conclusions from the mechanics thereof. The system is a mess, frankly.
felinoel 03-05-07, 12:27 PM	My personal interpretation is that the horses are considered natives of the material plane. When they are on their celestial planes they do have the extraplanar subtype because they are not from there, although it may be that they are born there. Your native plane is not determined by where you are born. Material Plane creatures that give birth among the planes still have a baby that is native to the Material Plane. There is lore to support that a population of Material planar creatures that settles in the planes takes many generations to become native to the plane they settled in. For instance, I believe the Shades did not become native to the Shadow Plane until after they had lived in the Shadow Plane for hundreds of years. I could probably find some other examples if I searched. Likely, if a paladin's mount was encountered on the celestial plane it resides on, it would have the extraplanar subtype there and could be hedged out or banished to the Material Plane from whence it hailed. Even if the horse was a second or third or fourth generation horse that had been born in that plane and had never before seen the Material Plane, it should still (in theory) be able to be banished to the Material Plane. Now, if a paladin has an exotic mount, such as a celestial hippogriff, I am betting that celestial template would make it an outsider and it would therefore be native to some celestial plane and could thus be banished or hedged out from the Material.No we are not talking about if it is extraplanar on the plane of Celestia, we are talking about if it is on the material plane Is there an official 3.5 version of the shade? Regardless, the interaction between the outsider, native outsider, and extraplanar types is really complicated and contentious, and I'm not sure I'd draw any "lore" conclusions from the mechanics thereof. The system is a mess, frankly.fine then, i will just say that a certain person who is currently calling the mount an outsider be just closeminded and thinks it is an outsider just because it 'comes' from another plane
Gray Richardson 03-05-07, 01:33 PM	No we are not talking about if it is extraplanar on the plane of Celestia, we are talking about if it is on the material planeI understand. The answer is that it does not have the extraplanar subtype on the Material Plane because it is native to the Material Plane. When it is found on the celestial planes it does have the extraplanar subtype there because it is not "from" there even though it may reside there. A paladin's horse is not in any way an outsider because it does not have the outsider type in it's stats.
felinoel 03-05-07, 05:42 PM	I understand. The answer is that it does not have the extraplanar subtype on the Material Plane because it is native to the Material Plane. When it is found on the celestial planes it does have the extraplanar subtype there because it is not "from" there even though it may reside there. A paladin's horse is not in any way an outsider because it does not have the outsider type in it's stats. but still to some closeminded people they might call it an outsider
ArcTan 03-05-07, 10:18 PM	but still to some closeminded people they might call it an outsider And they would be wrong. An Outsider means a being made of pure belief or principle or spirit, not just that a being comes from another plane.
Gray Richardson 03-05-07, 10:40 PM	If, for the purposes of your story you need or wish to allow someone to believe or mistake a paladin's mount for an outsider, then by all means go ahead and do so. If you need the mount to actually be an outsider, then by all means make him one. If it is important to the story, plot or campaign you are writing, you have the power and the obligation to adjust the rules as you see fit. ;)
felinoel 03-05-07, 11:58 PM	If, for the purposes of your story you need or wish to allow someone to believe or mistake a paladin's mount for an outsider, then by all means go ahead and do so. If you need the mount to actually be an outsider, then by all means make him one. If it is important to the story, plot or campaign you are writing, you have the power and the obligation to adjust the rules as you see fit. ;)which is indeed what is happening, someone thinks that the mount is an outsider but the mount is not one, which also the paladin states it isnt an outsider also