20V.S.20 who wins? [Archive] - Wizards Community

20V.S.20 who wins? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
nimblewright93
10-03-07, 04:44 PM if a player rolls a 20 hide check and the guard rolls a 20 search check who wins the PC or the Gaurd..... or does the kitchen table get ingulfed by a massive black hole because the gaurd finds the PC but DOESN'T find the PC all at once.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
10-03-07, 04:45 PM An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie.

Also, it's Spot not Search.
Kamin_Majere
10-03-07, 04:52 PM Rules for the win.

Also note you cannot critical sucess a skill check. A 20 on the dice simply lets you add that to the modifier it doesnt mean auto sucess anymore than taking 20 does
Infernostrider
10-03-07, 04:57 PM Also, it's Spot not Search.

depends on the context. if one just looks around casually, i'd call it spot. if you actively search the room (like cops do i guess) looking for a hidden character, i'd call it search (or maybe combined)
heffroncm
10-03-07, 05:13 PM It says specifically in the description of the Hide skill that it is opposed by Spot.
Bob Loblaw
10-03-07, 05:30 PM if a player rolls a 20 hide check and the guard rolls a 20 search check who wins the PC or the Gaurd..... or does the kitchen table get ingulfed by a massive black hole because the gaurd finds the PC but DOESN'T find the PC all at once.
The guard wins. The Hide check sets the DC for the Spot (or search or whatever check). All the guard needs to do is hit that DC just like with any other skill check.
Mock26
10-03-07, 06:35 PM The guard wins. Darn it all. I had 20 g.p. riding on the player's character. :(
Vharuck
10-03-07, 06:37 PM It says specifically in the description of the Hide skill that it is opposed by Spot.

The DMG also mentions that situations could arise where a check normally done with one skill would make sense if done with another. I'd say this is a good example. Spot is based on your trained visiual perception and adds your Wisdom since your awareness of the environment is beneficial. Search is based on your trained visual scrutiny and analysis and adds your Intelligence since you know how to look for, recognize, and process clues or tells.
Vharuck
10-03-07, 06:37 PM Darn it all. I had 20 g.p. riding on the player's character. :(

I'd say the poster above Bob was right, what with the SRD direct quote.
heffroncm
10-03-07, 07:25 PM The DMG also mentions that situations could arise where a check normally done with one skill would make sense if done with another. I'd say this is a good example. Spot is based on your trained visiual perception and adds your Wisdom since your awareness of the environment is beneficial. Search is based on your trained visual scrutiny and analysis and adds your Intelligence since you know how to look for, recognize, and process clues or tells.

In that case, it comes down to DM fiat which to use in which situation. I personally feel that Spot is always a better choice, unless the target is completely immobile for some reason.
Myzery78
10-03-07, 07:52 PM Unless there is something extraordinarily unusual going on, you use spot and not search. To hide a character needs cover or concealment, so if they're hiding behind a piece of furniture you use spot to see them. If you were using search, you wouldnt be able to search the square they are in until you were right next to them, at which point they wouldnt have cover, and so you wouldnt even need a check of any kind to find them. If on the other hand its a room with no lighting, and you only have shadow from outside they'd have concealment and again you would use spot to see them. Search only works for one square at a time so you could never locate them with it, all they would have to do is occasionally take a 5ft step. Also even if they remained immobile, search would still make no sense. You could double move through each square of the room until you bump in to something(a square you cant enter) and bam you found them.

Search never makes sense to find a character unless they are hidden in something, like a hollowed out object or behind a secret door, etc. Even then, you arent using the check to find them, you're using it to find the opening to what they are hidden in.
Suzu
10-03-07, 08:11 PM Einvaldurinn_mikli has already posted the answer. There is only one answer. It's in the rule. There is no possible reason for anyone bar the OP to continue posting in this thread.
Sildatorak
10-03-07, 08:12 PM What cops do when looking for a hidden person isn't so much searching as spending additional move actions to reattempt their spot checks.
nimblewright93
10-04-07, 04:07 PM Einvaldurinn_mikli has already posted the answer. There is only one answer. It's in the rule. There is no possible reason for anyone bar the OP to continue posting in this thread.

yes well people like to share there opinions so it's ok i like to see everyone's opinion

oh and I GET IT USE SPOT NOT SEARCH
Prince_of_Parkness
10-04-07, 04:49 PM I GET IT USE SPOT NOT SEARCH

What gave it away?
ShadowChemosh
10-04-07, 05:05 PM The guard wins. The Hide check sets the DC for the Spot (or search or whatever check). All the guard needs to do is hit that DC just like with any other skill check.
Close, but not right. Their is no DC as its a set of opposed checks.

Hide Skill
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm
Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you.

Spot Skill
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm
Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen.

Now lets check the rules for Opposed Roles. Listed pg64 of the PHB.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#opposedChecks
An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie.

So if the guard and the PC both have +0 to their opposed rolls and they both roll a 20 neither wins. You must roll again to determine who actually succeeds. If the guard had +1 to his roll and the PC had +0 and they both rolled 20s then the guard wins as his final total is 21. If the guard is +1 to his roll and the PC is +0 and the guard rolls a 19 and the player rolls a 20 the guard still wins as they both have final scores of 20, but the guard has a modifier of +1 compared to the players +0.
Bob Loblaw
10-04-07, 05:19 PM Close, but not right. Their is no DC as its a set of opposed checks.

Hide Skill
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm
Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you.

Spot Skill
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm
Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen.

Now lets check the rules for Opposed Roles. Listed pg64 of the PHB.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#opposedChecks
An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie.

So if the guard and the PC both have +0 to their opposed rolls and they both roll a 20 neither wins. You must roll again to determine who actually succeeds. If the guard had +1 to his roll and the PC had +0 and they both rolled 20s then the guard wins as his final total is 21. If the guard is +1 to his roll and the PC is +0 and the guard rolls a 19 and the player rolls a 20 the guard still wins as they both have final scores of 20, but the guard has a modifier of +1 compared to the players +0.

Someone had already correct me, thanks though. I forgot that I was using my houserule that made things move faster and easier. I see no need for the additional die rolls.
nimblewright93
10-04-07, 05:31 PM What gave it away?Oh i don't Know, Just a wild guess oh these post might have somthing to do with it.;)
Unless there is something extraordinarily unusual going on, you use spot and not search. To hide a character needs cover or concealment, so if they're hiding behind a piece of furniture you use spot to see them. If you were using search, you wouldnt be able to search the square they are in until you were right next to them, at which point they wouldnt have cover, and so you wouldnt even need a check of any kind to find them. If on the other hand its a room with no lighting, and you only have shadow from outside they'd have concealment and again you would use spot to see them. Search only works for one square at a time so you could never locate them with it, all they would have to do is occasionally take a 5ft step. Also even if they remained immobile, search would still make no sense. You could double move through each square of the room until you bump in to something(a square you cant enter) and bam you found them.

Search never makes sense to find a character unless they are hidden in something, like a hollowed out object or behind a secret door, etc. Even then, you arent using the check to find them, you're using it to find the opening to what they are hidden in.

Also, it's Spot not Search.

depends on the context. if one just looks around casually, i'd call it spot. if you actively search the room (like cops do i guess) looking for a hidden character, i'd call it search (or maybe combined)

It says specifically in the description of the Hide skill that it is opposed by Spot.

In that case, it comes down to DM fiat which to use in which situation. I personally feel that Spot is always a better choice, unless the target is completely immobile for some reason.
Krusk
10-04-07, 08:43 PM Are you applying all appropriate mods to the gaurds check? He probably gets a penalty based on distance, -1 per 10 ft. And was the gaurd throughly looking or was he distracted -5.

He might only be 10 ft from the hidden PC, but that is enough of an edge for the PC to get away with it.

In cases of a tie i generally rule in favor of the players, assuming there is some modifier that should be applied, that i am not, in their favor.
Ace_of_time
10-06-07, 07:06 PM Assuming we are talking about reg guards. the if they both roll the same on the die. The PC would win. Pcs often have more ranks and more pluses on their checks the most. If they both had same ranks and bonuses then the Guard would win.

Seach v/s spot depend. If he was hide in the room and the guard was searching the whole room for him then I would think it would be opposed by search. If he just looked in the roomthen it would be opposed by spot.
12Shark
10-06-07, 10:25 PM Search would be used if the person isn't spotted but is known to be in the room. Basically, 'I can't see where he is, but I know he's in there and I'm going to ransack the room for him'.

Example:

Rob the Rogue is being chased by George the Guard. Rob runs into a room, and discovers it is a dead end. Not having any magic at his disposal, he runs into a closet and closes the door, hiding inside.

George follows him into the room, and also knowing the rogue is hiding in the room, rolls his active spot. He fails, but he knows that Rob is inside, but he's not sure where, because Rob is a tricky one and could be anywhere from under the bed to hiding under the floorboards. So, he raids the room, searching all the squares someone could be hiding in. When he gets to the closet, while a spot check might have revealed that someone has gone through it, he is pretty much turning the room over and so throws the closet door open, revealing the coats in the closet. Now, he goes through the coats, and pushes them all to the side one by one, and discovers Rob the Rogue, hiding between two of them.
Ace_of_time
10-06-07, 11:22 PM That why I said it would depend on what was happening. Mostly it is spot, but not always.
Marcus Majarra
10-07-07, 02:33 PM Now, he goes through the coats, and pushes them all to the side one by one, and discovers Rob the Rogue, hiding between two of them.
This doesn't actually require a check. If the coat's giving the rogue the cover he needs to hide and the coat is removed, there's no more cover so he's not hiding any more.

This is the entire basis for why it doesn't make sense to roll opposed Search vs. Hide checks. While you're searching, you're basically removing cover.
nimblewright93
10-09-07, 07:31 PM Assuming we are talking about reg guards. the if they both roll the same on the die. The PC would win. Pcs often have more ranks and more pluses on their checks the most. If they both had same ranks and bonuses then the Guard would win.

Seach v/s spot depend. If he was hide in the room and the guard was searching the whole room for him then I would think it would be opposed by search. If he just looked in the roomthen it would be opposed by spot.

20=automatic win
Marcus Majarra
10-09-07, 10:37 PM 20=automatic win
This does not apply to skill checks.
Ace_of_time
10-10-07, 12:45 AM Only on save and attack rolls. If a rogue is searching for a trap DC50 and he is a 3rd level rogue rolling a 20 is not going to let him find the trap and nether will take 20 action. You have to have the ranks and bonuses to get the DC with the 20 or you get do/see/make it.
Jhulae
10-10-07, 02:17 AM Someone had already correct me, thanks though. I forgot that I was using my houserule that made things move faster and easier. I see no need for the additional die rolls.

Except there's no additional die rolls needed with the original rule *unless* both the hider and spotter have the exact same skill modifier.

I don't see how your house rule really speeds things up except in that one specific case. I do see how it can shaft over someone who's spent a lot of skill points on hide if they roll badly, however.
Bob Loblaw
10-10-07, 09:44 AM Except there's no additional die rolls needed with the original rule *unless* both the hider and spotter have the exact same skill modifier.

I don't see how your house rule really speeds things up except in that one specific case. I do see how it can shaft over someone who's spent a lot of skill points on hide if they roll badly, however.

My houserule means that I have one less rule to remember. One die roll sets the DC, the next tries to hit that DC. It seems more consistent to my group so we only need to remember the simple rule of having to hit the DC to succeed. The amount of skill points spent doesn't really matter to us. Sometimes people who are really good at something still screw it up. At worst, they are off by one point since the opposed check only needs to meet the DC so I wouldn't call it shafting. It works for our group and may not for every group.
Johngalt137
10-19-07, 01:06 AM if a player rolls a 20 hide check and the guard rolls a 20 search check who wins the PC or the Gaurd..... or does the kitchen table get ingulfed by a massive black hole because the gaurd finds the PC but DOESN'T find the PC all at once.

What are the modifiers on the hide and spot checks? You do know that a natural 20 is not an automatic success for skill checks.

There are two correct answers:

1. Whoever the DM thinks should win.

2. The Guard wins because the DC for the spot check is set by the hide check. The Guard successfully met the DC and therefore succeeds in his spot check. The important principle here is what action sets the DC.
Marcus Majarra
10-19-07, 03:25 AM There are two correct answers:

1. Whoever the DM thinks should win.

2. The Guard wins because the DC for the spot check is set by the hide check. The Guard successfully met the DC and therefore succeeds in his spot check. The important principle here is what action sets the DC.
1. While it is valid, I feel people should avoid suggesting this kind of answer. There's little point to posting in a DM Rules Counseling board if the default answer is "do whatever you like."

2. This is incorrect. When dealing with opposed rolls, no single roll sets the DC. Ties are resolved by comparing modifiers, and if both the result and modifiers are the same, tie-rollers re-roll to break the tie. This is the rule for all opposed rolls, including initiative checks, opposed ability checks, grapple checks, opposed attack rolls for disarm, and so on. Reference for this can be found in PHB64, under opposed checks. This is corroborated by further evidence on PHB136.
deathbane
10-23-07, 08:36 PM I got a somewhat related question. If it is spell resistance vs the roll to beat SR or a dispel magic check vs caster level and it is a tie who wins?
Archangel_Tyrael
10-23-07, 09:10 PM I got a somewhat related question. If it is spell resistance vs the roll to beat SR or a dispel magic check vs caster level and it is a tie who wins?

Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance)
"...equal to or exceeds..."

Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm)
"The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level."
Since it's a DC, simply landing on the check will allow you to beat it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nimblewright93 10-03-07, 04:44 PM	if a player rolls a 20 hide check and the guard rolls a 20 search check who wins the PC or the Gaurd..... or does the kitchen table get ingulfed by a massive black hole because the gaurd finds the PC but DOESN'T find the PC all at once.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-03-07, 04:45 PM	An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie. Also, it's Spot not Search.
Kamin_Majere 10-03-07, 04:52 PM	Rules for the win. Also note you cannot critical sucess a skill check. A 20 on the dice simply lets you add that to the modifier it doesnt mean auto sucess anymore than taking 20 does
Infernostrider 10-03-07, 04:57 PM	Also, it's Spot not Search. depends on the context. if one just looks around casually, i'd call it spot. if you actively search the room (like cops do i guess) looking for a hidden character, i'd call it search (or maybe combined)
heffroncm 10-03-07, 05:13 PM	It says specifically in the description of the Hide skill that it is opposed by Spot.
Bob Loblaw 10-03-07, 05:30 PM	if a player rolls a 20 hide check and the guard rolls a 20 search check who wins the PC or the Gaurd..... or does the kitchen table get ingulfed by a massive black hole because the gaurd finds the PC but DOESN'T find the PC all at once. The guard wins. The Hide check sets the DC for the Spot (or search or whatever check). All the guard needs to do is hit that DC just like with any other skill check.
Mock26 10-03-07, 06:35 PM	The guard wins. Darn it all. I had 20 g.p. riding on the player's character. :(
Vharuck 10-03-07, 06:37 PM	It says specifically in the description of the Hide skill that it is opposed by Spot. The DMG also mentions that situations could arise where a check normally done with one skill would make sense if done with another. I'd say this is a good example. Spot is based on your trained visiual perception and adds your Wisdom since your awareness of the environment is beneficial. Search is based on your trained visual scrutiny and analysis and adds your Intelligence since you know how to look for, recognize, and process clues or tells.
Vharuck 10-03-07, 06:37 PM	Darn it all. I had 20 g.p. riding on the player's character. :( I'd say the poster above Bob was right, what with the SRD direct quote.
heffroncm 10-03-07, 07:25 PM	The DMG also mentions that situations could arise where a check normally done with one skill would make sense if done with another. I'd say this is a good example. Spot is based on your trained visiual perception and adds your Wisdom since your awareness of the environment is beneficial. Search is based on your trained visual scrutiny and analysis and adds your Intelligence since you know how to look for, recognize, and process clues or tells. In that case, it comes down to DM fiat which to use in which situation. I personally feel that Spot is always a better choice, unless the target is completely immobile for some reason.
Myzery78 10-03-07, 07:52 PM	Unless there is something extraordinarily unusual going on, you use spot and not search. To hide a character needs cover or concealment, so if they're hiding behind a piece of furniture you use spot to see them. If you were using search, you wouldnt be able to search the square they are in until you were right next to them, at which point they wouldnt have cover, and so you wouldnt even need a check of any kind to find them. If on the other hand its a room with no lighting, and you only have shadow from outside they'd have concealment and again you would use spot to see them. Search only works for one square at a time so you could never locate them with it, all they would have to do is occasionally take a 5ft step. Also even if they remained immobile, search would still make no sense. You could double move through each square of the room until you bump in to something(a square you cant enter) and bam you found them. Search never makes sense to find a character unless they are hidden in something, like a hollowed out object or behind a secret door, etc. Even then, you arent using the check to find them, you're using it to find the opening to what they are hidden in.
Suzu 10-03-07, 08:11 PM	Einvaldurinn_mikli has already posted the answer. There is only one answer. It's in the rule. There is no possible reason for anyone bar the OP to continue posting in this thread.
Sildatorak 10-03-07, 08:12 PM	What cops do when looking for a hidden person isn't so much searching as spending additional move actions to reattempt their spot checks.
nimblewright93 10-04-07, 04:07 PM	Einvaldurinn_mikli has already posted the answer. There is only one answer. It's in the rule. There is no possible reason for anyone bar the OP to continue posting in this thread. yes well people like to share there opinions so it's ok i like to see everyone's opinion oh and I GET IT USE SPOT NOT SEARCH
Prince_of_Parkness 10-04-07, 04:49 PM	I GET IT USE SPOT NOT SEARCH What gave it away?
ShadowChemosh 10-04-07, 05:05 PM	The guard wins. The Hide check sets the DC for the Spot (or search or whatever check). All the guard needs to do is hit that DC just like with any other skill check. Close, but not right. Their is no DC as its a set of opposed checks. Hide Skill http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. Spot Skill http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Now lets check the rules for Opposed Roles. Listed pg64 of the PHB. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#opposedChecks An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie. So if the guard and the PC both have +0 to their opposed rolls and they both roll a 20 neither wins. You must roll again to determine who actually succeeds. If the guard had +1 to his roll and the PC had +0 and they both rolled 20s then the guard wins as his final total is 21. If the guard is +1 to his roll and the PC is +0 and the guard rolls a 19 and the player rolls a 20 the guard still wins as they both have final scores of 20, but the guard has a modifier of +1 compared to the players +0.
Bob Loblaw 10-04-07, 05:19 PM	Close, but not right. Their is no DC as its a set of opposed checks. Hide Skill http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. Spot Skill http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Now lets check the rules for Opposed Roles. Listed pg64 of the PHB. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#opposedChecks An opposed check is a check whose success or failure is determined by comparing the check result to another character’s check result. In an opposed check, the higher result succeeds, while the lower result fails. In case of a tie, the higher skill modifier wins. If these scores are the same, roll again to break the tie. So if the guard and the PC both have +0 to their opposed rolls and they both roll a 20 neither wins. You must roll again to determine who actually succeeds. If the guard had +1 to his roll and the PC had +0 and they both rolled 20s then the guard wins as his final total is 21. If the guard is +1 to his roll and the PC is +0 and the guard rolls a 19 and the player rolls a 20 the guard still wins as they both have final scores of 20, but the guard has a modifier of +1 compared to the players +0. Someone had already correct me, thanks though. I forgot that I was using my houserule that made things move faster and easier. I see no need for the additional die rolls.
nimblewright93 10-04-07, 05:31 PM	What gave it away?Oh i don't Know, Just a wild guess oh these post might have somthing to do with it.;) Unless there is something extraordinarily unusual going on, you use spot and not search. To hide a character needs cover or concealment, so if they're hiding behind a piece of furniture you use spot to see them. If you were using search, you wouldnt be able to search the square they are in until you were right next to them, at which point they wouldnt have cover, and so you wouldnt even need a check of any kind to find them. If on the other hand its a room with no lighting, and you only have shadow from outside they'd have concealment and again you would use spot to see them. Search only works for one square at a time so you could never locate them with it, all they would have to do is occasionally take a 5ft step. Also even if they remained immobile, search would still make no sense. You could double move through each square of the room until you bump in to something(a square you cant enter) and bam you found them. Search never makes sense to find a character unless they are hidden in something, like a hollowed out object or behind a secret door, etc. Even then, you arent using the check to find them, you're using it to find the opening to what they are hidden in. Also, it's Spot not Search. depends on the context. if one just looks around casually, i'd call it spot. if you actively search the room (like cops do i guess) looking for a hidden character, i'd call it search (or maybe combined) It says specifically in the description of the Hide skill that it is opposed by Spot. In that case, it comes down to DM fiat which to use in which situation. I personally feel that Spot is always a better choice, unless the target is completely immobile for some reason.
Krusk 10-04-07, 08:43 PM	Are you applying all appropriate mods to the gaurds check? He probably gets a penalty based on distance, -1 per 10 ft. And was the gaurd throughly looking or was he distracted -5. He might only be 10 ft from the hidden PC, but that is enough of an edge for the PC to get away with it. In cases of a tie i generally rule in favor of the players, assuming there is some modifier that should be applied, that i am not, in their favor.
Ace_of_time 10-06-07, 07:06 PM	Assuming we are talking about reg guards. the if they both roll the same on the die. The PC would win. Pcs often have more ranks and more pluses on their checks the most. If they both had same ranks and bonuses then the Guard would win. Seach v/s spot depend. If he was hide in the room and the guard was searching the whole room for him then I would think it would be opposed by search. If he just looked in the roomthen it would be opposed by spot.
12Shark 10-06-07, 10:25 PM	Search would be used if the person isn't spotted but is known to be in the room. Basically, 'I can't see where he is, but I know he's in there and I'm going to ransack the room for him'. Example: Rob the Rogue is being chased by George the Guard. Rob runs into a room, and discovers it is a dead end. Not having any magic at his disposal, he runs into a closet and closes the door, hiding inside. George follows him into the room, and also knowing the rogue is hiding in the room, rolls his active spot. He fails, but he knows that Rob is inside, but he's not sure where, because Rob is a tricky one and could be anywhere from under the bed to hiding under the floorboards. So, he raids the room, searching all the squares someone could be hiding in. When he gets to the closet, while a spot check might have revealed that someone has gone through it, he is pretty much turning the room over and so throws the closet door open, revealing the coats in the closet. Now, he goes through the coats, and pushes them all to the side one by one, and discovers Rob the Rogue, hiding between two of them.
Ace_of_time 10-06-07, 11:22 PM	That why I said it would depend on what was happening. Mostly it is spot, but not always.
Marcus Majarra 10-07-07, 02:33 PM	Now, he goes through the coats, and pushes them all to the side one by one, and discovers Rob the Rogue, hiding between two of them. This doesn't actually require a check. If the coat's giving the rogue the cover he needs to hide and the coat is removed, there's no more cover so he's not hiding any more. This is the entire basis for why it doesn't make sense to roll opposed Search vs. Hide checks. While you're searching, you're basically removing cover.
nimblewright93 10-09-07, 07:31 PM	Assuming we are talking about reg guards. the if they both roll the same on the die. The PC would win. Pcs often have more ranks and more pluses on their checks the most. If they both had same ranks and bonuses then the Guard would win. Seach v/s spot depend. If he was hide in the room and the guard was searching the whole room for him then I would think it would be opposed by search. If he just looked in the roomthen it would be opposed by spot. 20=automatic win
Marcus Majarra 10-09-07, 10:37 PM	20=automatic win This does not apply to skill checks.
Ace_of_time 10-10-07, 12:45 AM	Only on save and attack rolls. If a rogue is searching for a trap DC50 and he is a 3rd level rogue rolling a 20 is not going to let him find the trap and nether will take 20 action. You have to have the ranks and bonuses to get the DC with the 20 or you get do/see/make it.
Jhulae 10-10-07, 02:17 AM	Someone had already correct me, thanks though. I forgot that I was using my houserule that made things move faster and easier. I see no need for the additional die rolls. Except there's no additional die rolls needed with the original rule unless both the hider and spotter have the exact same skill modifier. I don't see how your house rule really speeds things up except in that one specific case. I do see how it can shaft over someone who's spent a lot of skill points on hide if they roll badly, however.
Bob Loblaw 10-10-07, 09:44 AM	Except there's no additional die rolls needed with the original rule unless both the hider and spotter have the exact same skill modifier. I don't see how your house rule really speeds things up except in that one specific case. I do see how it can shaft over someone who's spent a lot of skill points on hide if they roll badly, however. My houserule means that I have one less rule to remember. One die roll sets the DC, the next tries to hit that DC. It seems more consistent to my group so we only need to remember the simple rule of having to hit the DC to succeed. The amount of skill points spent doesn't really matter to us. Sometimes people who are really good at something still screw it up. At worst, they are off by one point since the opposed check only needs to meet the DC so I wouldn't call it shafting. It works for our group and may not for every group.
Johngalt137 10-19-07, 01:06 AM	if a player rolls a 20 hide check and the guard rolls a 20 search check who wins the PC or the Gaurd..... or does the kitchen table get ingulfed by a massive black hole because the gaurd finds the PC but DOESN'T find the PC all at once. What are the modifiers on the hide and spot checks? You do know that a natural 20 is not an automatic success for skill checks. There are two correct answers: 1. Whoever the DM thinks should win. 2. The Guard wins because the DC for the spot check is set by the hide check. The Guard successfully met the DC and therefore succeeds in his spot check. The important principle here is what action sets the DC.
Marcus Majarra 10-19-07, 03:25 AM	There are two correct answers: 1. Whoever the DM thinks should win. 2. The Guard wins because the DC for the spot check is set by the hide check. The Guard successfully met the DC and therefore succeeds in his spot check. The important principle here is what action sets the DC. 1. While it is valid, I feel people should avoid suggesting this kind of answer. There's little point to posting in a DM Rules Counseling board if the default answer is "do whatever you like." 2. This is incorrect. When dealing with opposed rolls, no single roll sets the DC. Ties are resolved by comparing modifiers, and if both the result and modifiers are the same, tie-rollers re-roll to break the tie. This is the rule for all opposed rolls, including initiative checks, opposed ability checks, grapple checks, opposed attack rolls for disarm, and so on. Reference for this can be found in PHB64, under opposed checks. This is corroborated by further evidence on PHB136.
deathbane 10-23-07, 08:36 PM	I got a somewhat related question. If it is spell resistance vs the roll to beat SR or a dispel magic check vs caster level and it is a tie who wins?
Archangel_Tyrael 10-23-07, 09:10 PM	I got a somewhat related question. If it is spell resistance vs the roll to beat SR or a dispel magic check vs caster level and it is a tie who wins? Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance) "...equal to or exceeds..." Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) "The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level." Since it's a DC, simply landing on the check will allow you to beat it.