23 AC, without armor...at level 3? [Archive] - Wizards Community

23 AC, without armor...at level 3? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
the_rooster
09-04-07, 01:56 PM So I'm running a campaign and one of my players died by rolling about 50 rolls less than 6 in a row.

Fast forward a week and he shows up with this halfling Monk/Swordsage creation.

Dex: 18
Wis: 18

Because of the monk and swordsage having AC bonuses based on their wisdom, this means his AC, unarmored, is 23...at level 3.

Now I THINK I remember seeing somewhere that a bonus from one source (his wisdom modifier, in this case) do not get applied more than once. But does this apply here?

I can't find any ruling saying he can't do it, and I'm fine with him doing it, but I want to make sure it's within the scope of the rules. Any help?

(BTW, pelase don't turn this into a debate over the 'overpowered-ness' of Nine swords)
weasel0
09-04-07, 02:01 PM I don't know bout RAW, but it's like saying that fighter/rogue benefit 2x from the same suit of studded leather because both classes lit you use light armor.

**Actually, I believe this falls under the "bonuses from the same source/of the same type don't stack."
the_rooster
09-04-07, 02:13 PM I don't know bout RAW, but it's like saying that fighter/rogue benefit 2x from the same suit of studded leather because both classes lit you use light armor.

**Actually, I believe this falls under the "bonuses from the same source/of the same type don't stack."

Except it's different abilities, and the bonuses are both unnamed. It would be more like 2 magic rings that both gave unnamed bonuses to hit.
wonlee76
09-04-07, 02:13 PM By RAW, Swordsage's Wis to AC ability kicks in when wearing light armor. Monk's Wis to AC ability kicks in when wearing no armor. So they are mutually exclusive.

By houserule: I know it was suggested in a FAQ or maybe ask the Sage that the Swordsage Wis to AC should work while unarmored. However, even if that was the case, what weasel says kicks in. Bonuses from the same/similar source should not stack. (ie. Unnamed bonus to AC equal to Wisdom Modifier).
the_rooster
09-04-07, 02:22 PM By RAW, Swordsage's Wis to AC ability kicks in when wearing light armor. Monk's Wis to AC ability kicks in when wearing no armor. So they are mutually exclusive.
I'll have to re-read it (book's not here), but I think it says something about "armor no heavier than light" or something to imply that no armor at all is acceptable.

Bonuses from the same/similar source should not stack. (ie. Unnamed bonus to AC equal to Wisdom Modifier).

Is there a rule for this? Or is it just a houserule?
Shadowhowler
09-04-07, 02:23 PM By RAW, Swordsage's Wis to AC ability kicks in when wearing light armor. Monk's Wis to AC ability kicks in when wearing no armor. So they are mutually exclusive.

By houserule: I know it was suggested in a FAQ or maybe ask the Sage that the Swordsage Wis to AC should work while unarmored. However, even if that was the case, what weasel says kicks in. Bonuses from the same/similar source should not stack. (ie. Unnamed bonus to AC equal to Wisdom Modifier).

What he said.

Yah, the Swordsage has been errata'ed so that he gains the wisdom bounes to AC in light or no armour. A Monk Gains the wisdom bounes to AC only without armour. However, the two wisdom bounes to AC are *NOT* stackable.

So your guy should be rocking a 18AC, 19 with dodge... 20 becuase he is small... and there are other feats and things he can do to improve it as well. Since he DOES have Swordsage, he could Ware a Mithral Chain Shirt and rock an AC of 23, 24 with dodge.

Anyway, hope that helps.
weasel0
09-04-07, 02:28 PM The bonuses are most definatly named. They're called Wisdom. You're analogy, while true, is inaccurate in this situation. What we would have here is 2 magic rings that give a str bonus which lead to a bonus to hit, but only one applies.

Now yes, in having the monk and swordsage, you can apply your wis+ in more than one situation(unarmored and lightly armored), but at unarmored you can't use both the monk's and the swordsage's wis+ to AC class features, you have to use one or the other.
heffroncm
09-04-07, 03:22 PM No, they are NOT named Wisdom Bonus. Swordsage ability text:

AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. However, you lose this bonus when you are immobilized or helpless.

Monk ability text:

AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

So, the problem still presents that the Swordsage bonus only applies while in Light Armor. There is NO official FAQ or Errata to contradict this, and CustServ has stated that it is up to the DM to rule it either way as they choose. I believe the generally accepted option is to allow it to apply when unarmored, you lose the Light Armor Proficiency of the class.
weasel0
09-04-07, 06:02 PM Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class
Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC

Modifier = bonus ... looks like that's named to me.

Now the This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). in the monk description is an unnamed bonus.

But, that nitpicking between the two of us aside, *insert own opinion here* common sense applied says that you can't use the same ability twice to do one thing a single time. And that's where I'll leave my stance.
calronmoonflower
09-04-07, 06:11 PM Yah, the Swordsage has been errata'ed so that he gains the wisdom bounes to AC in light or no armour. A Monk Gains the wisdom bounes to AC only without armour. However, the two wisdom bounes to AC are *NOT* stackable.

You mind pointing me to the source as I have never seen it. No errata has been released for the Book of Nine Swords as far as I can tell.

I did find this though

Q: Does the AC bonus of the swordsage (from Tome of Battle) stack with the AC bonus of the monk, even though they are both based on Wisdom modifier?

A: No. The swordsage’s AC bonus, allowing the swordsage to apply her Wisdom bonus to her armor class, mimics the ability of the monk’s AC bonus. Since these abilities share the same name and have the same effect, they will not stack (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060904a)
mlund
09-04-07, 07:01 PM There you go.

It is either the Name of the Bonus ("Dodge Bonus," "Sacred Bonus," "Morale Bonus") or the name of the source effect in the case of an unnamed bonus - in this case the "AC Bonus" special ability, which both classes have by the same name.

I really hate seeing people running around trying to say this or that does or doesn't stack because it "is just like XYZ." That's not what the rules say. I don't care how similar the two abilities (or penalties) act, they stack unless the rules say otherwise.

The rules say otherwise on two events:
- Same Bonus / Penalty Name
- Same Ability / Power / Effect Source on an Unnamed Bonus / Penalty

It amazes me how many people somehow think that either:

A.) Your Combat Expertise attack penalty counts against your Maximum Power Attack value.

OR

B.) Your Combat Expertise attack penalty and your Power Attack attack penalty don't stack.

They are both unnamed penalties from separate sources with different names. They have nothing to do with each other. They don't interact with each other in any way. They both apply fully and independently. If you want your BAB +5 Fighter to take -5 from Combat Expertise and -5 from Power Attack with your Rapier or Spiked Chain then you go and give that Huge Gelatinous Cube what its got coming to it.

- Marty Lund
calronmoonflower
09-04-07, 07:46 PM Missread something. Please ignore.
Roog
09-04-07, 08:31 PM You mind pointing me to the source as I have never seen it. No errata has been released for the Book of Nine Swords as far as I can tell.

Tome of Battle: CustServ Q&A (UPDATED Aug. 17) (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=683775)

Q Alright, so the Swordsage's AC Bonus ability states "Starting at 2nd level, you can add you Wisdom modifer as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are encumbered, and do not use a shield."

Does this mean that you can't use this ability when you are unarmored, ONLY in light armor? By RAW it does but... is it a mistake for errata, should I inform my DM that it works with no armor as well?

A The intent is that you get this benefit whether you are wearing light armor or are unarmored. I will pass this issue along to the appropriate departments for potential errata treatment. Of course your DM is allowed to rule however he/she wishes. Thank you for bringing this to our attention!
calronmoonflower
09-04-07, 09:40 PM Tome of Battle: CustServ Q&A (UPDATED Aug. 17) (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=683775)

I will pass this issue along to the appropriate departments for potential errata treatment.

So it is not really errata yet. :P

Customer Service is nefarious for frequently getting things wrong. You may remember hearing the saying "100% official and 50% right."

Of course they are right saying that you can rule 0 it anyway that you want, but currently this is not the Rules As Written.

Anyway thanks for pointing it out for me.
eamon
09-05-07, 02:34 PM I don't remember where it's stated that multiple bonuses dependent on the same ability score don't stack, but it makes a lot of sense. Is there actually such an explicit ruling?

Otherwise, why would a monk/ninja/swordsage's AC bonus not stack?

Note also that despite slightly differing prerequisites, the class ability is in both cases the same, and is called the same - AC bonus (EX). I'm sure it's not reasonable to stack the two, and I'd strongly advise against allowing it. If he's after more unarmored AC boosters, he could try a duelist, which uses INT...
pookha
09-05-07, 02:44 PM A good monk build should almost always have a hard time hitting his own armor class.
Shadowhowler
09-05-07, 03:41 PM So it is not really errata yet. :P

Customer Service is nefarious for frequently getting things wrong. You may remember hearing the saying "100% official and 50% right."

Of course they are right saying that you can rule 0 it anyway that you want, but currently this is not the Rules As Written.

Anyway thanks for pointing it out for me.

They may be rife with errors... but this one really is a no-brainer.

WHY would you get the bonus while wareing leather armour, but not get it when waring your normal clothes? It certainly makes a lot more sense to use the Swordsage's wisdom bouns as 'When waring no heavier then light armour' which would include no armour. Having it work in light armour but not in no armour makes no sense at all. At that point, you are reading to literaly and not thinking for yourself enough.

However, you are right in that no offical errata has been put out for 9 swords yet. That was my bad.
mlund
09-05-07, 07:07 PM If he's after more unarmored AC boosters, he could try a duelist, which uses INT...

Not just that it uses INT, but is has a different name "Canny Defense," and isn't a direct bonus to AC, but rather a bonus to your Dexterity Bonus to AC.

Also of note with the Duelist, it has a Grace (EX) just like the Swashbuckler. The Competence Bonuses to Reflex saves they grant don't stack, and wouldn't stack even if they were untyped.

- Marty Lund
heffroncm
09-05-07, 11:15 PM They may be rife with errors... but this one really is a no-brainer.

WHY would you get the bonus while wareing leather armour, but not get it when waring your normal clothes? It certainly makes a lot more sense to use the Swordsage's wisdom bouns as 'When waring no heavier then light armour' which would include no armour. Having it work in light armour but not in no armour makes no sense at all. At that point, you are reading to literaly and not thinking for yourself enough.

However, you are right in that no offical errata has been put out for 9 swords yet. That was my bad.

WIS to AC while wearing armor but not while unarmored doesn't make sense?

My character has an ingrained, intuitive understanding of how to move his body in such a way that the armor I am wearing absorbs more of an attack, thereby increasing my likeliness to remain unharmed. Such movements do not benefit me while not wearing my armor, as my soft squishiness doesn't have the same hard, inflexible surfaces as a suit of armor.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
eamon
09-06-07, 03:37 PM Well... "perfectly" reasonable is a stretchable definition, I suppose, but consider that the armor bonus counts for touch AC, and the general pattern that you're more dextrous the less armor you wear, I'm inclined to believe that an evasive ability that works in light armor implicitly works unarmored.

The description isn't talking about leaning into blows and knowing just how to absorb blows harmlessly with your armor, and nothing suggests that the armor is anything but a hindrance, and further, this would be quite the exceptional rule if you disallowed it when not wearing armor. So exceptional in fact, that I hope they'd explicitly point it out if armor was actually really a prerequisite. They didn't; instead customer service (who are just trying to help) claim that the ability works in no armor as well.

Although your interpretation is reasonable, the other interpretation is at least as reasonable, and it fits the standard pattern of abilities dependent on movement which don't function when wearing some armor types (namely armor type X or lighter), and it's what customer service claims.

What you're saying makes sense, but in light of all the other factors... I'm left thinking a sword sage has Wis to AC when unarmored.
heffroncm
09-06-07, 05:04 PM My only point, eamon, was that it wasn't a possibility that made "no sense at all." My group and I tend to play as RAW as possible, unless it would harm the game to do so, and this rule as written doesn't cause any problems. In fact, it's helpful in a way, as it fixes the monk or ninja ac bonus stacking issue.
Shadowhowler
09-07-07, 12:48 AM Well, I still think it makes NO sense to run it that way... and I have never been afraid to use comon sense over RAW, and will contenue to do so.

It just so happens that, this time, my comon sense judgement is backed up by the CustServ rulling.
Tedronai
09-07-07, 03:11 AM That and the fact that, under the description for how the ability might work given by heffroncm, the bonus COULD NOT apply against touch attacks, as that would represent actively allowing the attack to land (the fact that it lands on a particularly resilient point on the armour makes no difference in the case of a touch attack).
heffroncm
09-07-07, 11:12 AM As has been said, CustServ is pretty hit or miss. You can send them the same question from two different e-mails and end up with two different answers.

You're free to run your game any way you like, of course. I continue to disagree that there is no feasible way to look at a Wis bonus that only applies in armor.

If nothing else, it's a game with rules, not a reality simulator. Most of these rules don't make any sense. The average 10th level fighter will usually survive a 2-mile fall if you go strictly by the rules.
Ace_of_time
09-07-07, 08:41 PM Are you asking if you can add your wis mod in twice from two different classes? If so no you can't. Now you can stack the armor bonuses granted by class level like monk and scout as long as the come from different things.
eamon
09-08-07, 07:58 AM As has been said, CustServ is pretty hit or miss. You can send them the same question from two different e-mails and end up with two different answers.

If CustServ comes with an interpretation it's wise to consider it critically. Fine. You're suggesting that every interpretation coming from CustServ is worth. That's patently ridiculous. They might make a few mistakes, but certainly no more than others do - and they have the advantage of being part of a professional organization which includes the authors of the various bits of rule text and with a good deal of experience in D&D rules.

If you've considered CustServ's interpretation critically, then you should have a well-founded reason for rejecting it. Right now, your only argument is, "well, it's conceivable to come up with an alternative interpretation". Somebody asked CustServ the question precisely because the answer wasn't obvious. Of course it's conceivable to come up with some alternative interpretation!

CustServ gave a basic interpretation, saying that the Swordsage class ablity works when unarmored . Additionally, I just gave reasons why that interpretation makes more sense that the alternative; namely consistency with all other class abilities limited by armor, and logically with the concept of Touch AC which get's worse when you take off armor.

So can you conceivable rule otherwise? Sure, conceivably. Heck, what does CustServ say about this?

Of course your DM is allowed to rule however he/she wishes. Thank you for bringing this to our attention!

right.
eamon
09-08-07, 08:05 AM My only point, eamon, was that it wasn't a possibility that made "no sense at all." My group and I tend to play as RAW as possible, unless it would harm the game to do so, and this rule as written doesn't cause any problems. In fact, it's helpful in a way, as it fixes the monk or ninja ac bonus stacking issue.

I also play by RAW unless it harm the game to do so. I'm not disagreeing with the printed glyph's, I'm disagreeing with your interpretation of them - an interpretation which depends on the context of the entirety of the D&D rule set, and not just those few letters. And you can fix the stacking issues simply by not allowing multiple Wis to AC's to stack, since they're the essentially the same effect and thus shouldn't stack.
heffroncm
09-08-07, 10:43 AM I'm sorry we've ended up at such odds over this. I never intended it to become an argument of this nature. Our DM'ing styles differ, in that you houserule when it makes logical sense, and I only houserule in extreme circumstances that really, really need it. Considering that anyone can get Wis + 1 to AC while unarmored for 13,000 gp, I never saw this as an extreme circumstance. It can be argued that it doesn't make much sense, but from the standpoint of game mechanics and balance I do not beleive it needs any special fixing. That's all I've been trying to say.

As to the CustServ question, yes, I do question everything that they say. I've seen far too many contraditctions, and lately flat out refusals to make rules interpretations. When questioned about the ability to apply Power Attack damage to the vestige Otiax's melee touch attack, they said it can be done either way and is up to the DM, elaborating further that it is not their job to make rules decisions. I feel anything out of CustServ has to be treated as unofficial as any other houserule.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
the_rooster 09-04-07, 01:56 PM	So I'm running a campaign and one of my players died by rolling about 50 rolls less than 6 in a row. Fast forward a week and he shows up with this halfling Monk/Swordsage creation. Dex: 18 Wis: 18 Because of the monk and swordsage having AC bonuses based on their wisdom, this means his AC, unarmored, is 23...at level 3. Now I THINK I remember seeing somewhere that a bonus from one source (his wisdom modifier, in this case) do not get applied more than once. But does this apply here? I can't find any ruling saying he can't do it, and I'm fine with him doing it, but I want to make sure it's within the scope of the rules. Any help? (BTW, pelase don't turn this into a debate over the 'overpowered-ness' of Nine swords)
weasel0 09-04-07, 02:01 PM	I don't know bout RAW, but it's like saying that fighter/rogue benefit 2x from the same suit of studded leather because both classes lit you use light armor. **Actually, I believe this falls under the "bonuses from the same source/of the same type don't stack."
the_rooster 09-04-07, 02:13 PM	I don't know bout RAW, but it's like saying that fighter/rogue benefit 2x from the same suit of studded leather because both classes lit you use light armor. **Actually, I believe this falls under the "bonuses from the same source/of the same type don't stack." Except it's different abilities, and the bonuses are both unnamed. It would be more like 2 magic rings that both gave unnamed bonuses to hit.
wonlee76 09-04-07, 02:13 PM	By RAW, Swordsage's Wis to AC ability kicks in when wearing light armor. Monk's Wis to AC ability kicks in when wearing no armor. So they are mutually exclusive. By houserule: I know it was suggested in a FAQ or maybe ask the Sage that the Swordsage Wis to AC should work while unarmored. However, even if that was the case, what weasel says kicks in. Bonuses from the same/similar source should not stack. (ie. Unnamed bonus to AC equal to Wisdom Modifier).
the_rooster 09-04-07, 02:22 PM	By RAW, Swordsage's Wis to AC ability kicks in when wearing light armor. Monk's Wis to AC ability kicks in when wearing no armor. So they are mutually exclusive. I'll have to re-read it (book's not here), but I think it says something about "armor no heavier than light" or something to imply that no armor at all is acceptable. Bonuses from the same/similar source should not stack. (ie. Unnamed bonus to AC equal to Wisdom Modifier). Is there a rule for this? Or is it just a houserule?
Shadowhowler 09-04-07, 02:23 PM	By RAW, Swordsage's Wis to AC ability kicks in when wearing light armor. Monk's Wis to AC ability kicks in when wearing no armor. So they are mutually exclusive. By houserule: I know it was suggested in a FAQ or maybe ask the Sage that the Swordsage Wis to AC should work while unarmored. However, even if that was the case, what weasel says kicks in. Bonuses from the same/similar source should not stack. (ie. Unnamed bonus to AC equal to Wisdom Modifier). What he said. Yah, the Swordsage has been errata'ed so that he gains the wisdom bounes to AC in light or no armour. A Monk Gains the wisdom bounes to AC only without armour. However, the two wisdom bounes to AC are NOT stackable. So your guy should be rocking a 18AC, 19 with dodge... 20 becuase he is small... and there are other feats and things he can do to improve it as well. Since he DOES have Swordsage, he could Ware a Mithral Chain Shirt and rock an AC of 23, 24 with dodge. Anyway, hope that helps.
weasel0 09-04-07, 02:28 PM	The bonuses are most definatly named. They're called Wisdom. You're analogy, while true, is inaccurate in this situation. What we would have here is 2 magic rings that give a str bonus which lead to a bonus to hit, but only one applies. Now yes, in having the monk and swordsage, you can apply your wis+ in more than one situation(unarmored and lightly armored), but at unarmored you can't use both the monk's and the swordsage's wis+ to AC class features, you have to use one or the other.
heffroncm 09-04-07, 03:22 PM	No, they are NOT named Wisdom Bonus. Swordsage ability text: AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. However, you lose this bonus when you are immobilized or helpless. Monk ability text: AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. So, the problem still presents that the Swordsage bonus only applies while in Light Armor. There is NO official FAQ or Errata to contradict this, and CustServ has stated that it is up to the DM to rule it either way as they choose. I believe the generally accepted option is to allow it to apply when unarmored, you lose the Light Armor Proficiency of the class.
weasel0 09-04-07, 06:02 PM	Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC Modifier = bonus ... looks like that's named to me. Now the This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). in the monk description is an unnamed bonus. But, that nitpicking between the two of us aside, insert own opinion here common sense applied says that you can't use the same ability twice to do one thing a single time. And that's where I'll leave my stance.
calronmoonflower 09-04-07, 06:11 PM	Yah, the Swordsage has been errata'ed so that he gains the wisdom bounes to AC in light or no armour. A Monk Gains the wisdom bounes to AC only without armour. However, the two wisdom bounes to AC are NOT stackable. You mind pointing me to the source as I have never seen it. No errata has been released for the Book of Nine Swords as far as I can tell. I did find this though Q: Does the AC bonus of the swordsage (from Tome of Battle) stack with the AC bonus of the monk, even though they are both based on Wisdom modifier? A: No. The swordsage’s AC bonus, allowing the swordsage to apply her Wisdom bonus to her armor class, mimics the ability of the monk’s AC bonus. Since these abilities share the same name and have the same effect, they will not stack (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060904a)
mlund 09-04-07, 07:01 PM	There you go. It is either the Name of the Bonus ("Dodge Bonus," "Sacred Bonus," "Morale Bonus") or the name of the source effect in the case of an unnamed bonus - in this case the "AC Bonus" special ability, which both classes have by the same name. I really hate seeing people running around trying to say this or that does or doesn't stack because it "is just like XYZ." That's not what the rules say. I don't care how similar the two abilities (or penalties) act, they stack unless the rules say otherwise. The rules say otherwise on two events: - Same Bonus / Penalty Name - Same Ability / Power / Effect Source on an Unnamed Bonus / Penalty It amazes me how many people somehow think that either: A.) Your Combat Expertise attack penalty counts against your Maximum Power Attack value. OR B.) Your Combat Expertise attack penalty and your Power Attack attack penalty don't stack. They are both unnamed penalties from separate sources with different names. They have nothing to do with each other. They don't interact with each other in any way. They both apply fully and independently. If you want your BAB +5 Fighter to take -5 from Combat Expertise and -5 from Power Attack with your Rapier or Spiked Chain then you go and give that Huge Gelatinous Cube what its got coming to it. - Marty Lund
calronmoonflower 09-04-07, 07:46 PM	Missread something. Please ignore.
Roog 09-04-07, 08:31 PM	You mind pointing me to the source as I have never seen it. No errata has been released for the Book of Nine Swords as far as I can tell. Tome of Battle: CustServ Q&A (UPDATED Aug. 17) (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=683775) Q Alright, so the Swordsage's AC Bonus ability states "Starting at 2nd level, you can add you Wisdom modifer as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are encumbered, and do not use a shield." Does this mean that you can't use this ability when you are unarmored, ONLY in light armor? By RAW it does but... is it a mistake for errata, should I inform my DM that it works with no armor as well? A The intent is that you get this benefit whether you are wearing light armor or are unarmored. I will pass this issue along to the appropriate departments for potential errata treatment. Of course your DM is allowed to rule however he/she wishes. Thank you for bringing this to our attention!
calronmoonflower 09-04-07, 09:40 PM	Tome of Battle: CustServ Q&A (UPDATED Aug. 17) (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=683775) I will pass this issue along to the appropriate departments for potential errata treatment. So it is not really errata yet. :P Customer Service is nefarious for frequently getting things wrong. You may remember hearing the saying "100% official and 50% right." Of course they are right saying that you can rule 0 it anyway that you want, but currently this is not the Rules As Written. Anyway thanks for pointing it out for me.
eamon 09-05-07, 02:34 PM	I don't remember where it's stated that multiple bonuses dependent on the same ability score don't stack, but it makes a lot of sense. Is there actually such an explicit ruling? Otherwise, why would a monk/ninja/swordsage's AC bonus not stack? Note also that despite slightly differing prerequisites, the class ability is in both cases the same, and is called the same - AC bonus (EX). I'm sure it's not reasonable to stack the two, and I'd strongly advise against allowing it. If he's after more unarmored AC boosters, he could try a duelist, which uses INT...
pookha 09-05-07, 02:44 PM	A good monk build should almost always have a hard time hitting his own armor class.
Shadowhowler 09-05-07, 03:41 PM	So it is not really errata yet. :P Customer Service is nefarious for frequently getting things wrong. You may remember hearing the saying "100% official and 50% right." Of course they are right saying that you can rule 0 it anyway that you want, but currently this is not the Rules As Written. Anyway thanks for pointing it out for me. They may be rife with errors... but this one really is a no-brainer. WHY would you get the bonus while wareing leather armour, but not get it when waring your normal clothes? It certainly makes a lot more sense to use the Swordsage's wisdom bouns as 'When waring no heavier then light armour' which would include no armour. Having it work in light armour but not in no armour makes no sense at all. At that point, you are reading to literaly and not thinking for yourself enough. However, you are right in that no offical errata has been put out for 9 swords yet. That was my bad.
mlund 09-05-07, 07:07 PM	If he's after more unarmored AC boosters, he could try a duelist, which uses INT... Not just that it uses INT, but is has a different name "Canny Defense," and isn't a direct bonus to AC, but rather a bonus to your Dexterity Bonus to AC. Also of note with the Duelist, it has a Grace (EX) just like the Swashbuckler. The Competence Bonuses to Reflex saves they grant don't stack, and wouldn't stack even if they were untyped. - Marty Lund
heffroncm 09-05-07, 11:15 PM	They may be rife with errors... but this one really is a no-brainer. WHY would you get the bonus while wareing leather armour, but not get it when waring your normal clothes? It certainly makes a lot more sense to use the Swordsage's wisdom bouns as 'When waring no heavier then light armour' which would include no armour. Having it work in light armour but not in no armour makes no sense at all. At that point, you are reading to literaly and not thinking for yourself enough. However, you are right in that no offical errata has been put out for 9 swords yet. That was my bad. WIS to AC while wearing armor but not while unarmored doesn't make sense? My character has an ingrained, intuitive understanding of how to move his body in such a way that the armor I am wearing absorbs more of an attack, thereby increasing my likeliness to remain unharmed. Such movements do not benefit me while not wearing my armor, as my soft squishiness doesn't have the same hard, inflexible surfaces as a suit of armor. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
eamon 09-06-07, 03:37 PM	Well... "perfectly" reasonable is a stretchable definition, I suppose, but consider that the armor bonus counts for touch AC, and the general pattern that you're more dextrous the less armor you wear, I'm inclined to believe that an evasive ability that works in light armor implicitly works unarmored. The description isn't talking about leaning into blows and knowing just how to absorb blows harmlessly with your armor, and nothing suggests that the armor is anything but a hindrance, and further, this would be quite the exceptional rule if you disallowed it when not wearing armor. So exceptional in fact, that I hope they'd explicitly point it out if armor was actually really a prerequisite. They didn't; instead customer service (who are just trying to help) claim that the ability works in no armor as well. Although your interpretation is reasonable, the other interpretation is at least as reasonable, and it fits the standard pattern of abilities dependent on movement which don't function when wearing some armor types (namely armor type X or lighter), and it's what customer service claims. What you're saying makes sense, but in light of all the other factors... I'm left thinking a sword sage has Wis to AC when unarmored.
heffroncm 09-06-07, 05:04 PM	My only point, eamon, was that it wasn't a possibility that made "no sense at all." My group and I tend to play as RAW as possible, unless it would harm the game to do so, and this rule as written doesn't cause any problems. In fact, it's helpful in a way, as it fixes the monk or ninja ac bonus stacking issue.
Shadowhowler 09-07-07, 12:48 AM	Well, I still think it makes NO sense to run it that way... and I have never been afraid to use comon sense over RAW, and will contenue to do so. It just so happens that, this time, my comon sense judgement is backed up by the CustServ rulling.
Tedronai 09-07-07, 03:11 AM	That and the fact that, under the description for how the ability might work given by heffroncm, the bonus COULD NOT apply against touch attacks, as that would represent actively allowing the attack to land (the fact that it lands on a particularly resilient point on the armour makes no difference in the case of a touch attack).
heffroncm 09-07-07, 11:12 AM	As has been said, CustServ is pretty hit or miss. You can send them the same question from two different e-mails and end up with two different answers. You're free to run your game any way you like, of course. I continue to disagree that there is no feasible way to look at a Wis bonus that only applies in armor. If nothing else, it's a game with rules, not a reality simulator. Most of these rules don't make any sense. The average 10th level fighter will usually survive a 2-mile fall if you go strictly by the rules.
Ace_of_time 09-07-07, 08:41 PM	Are you asking if you can add your wis mod in twice from two different classes? If so no you can't. Now you can stack the armor bonuses granted by class level like monk and scout as long as the come from different things.
eamon 09-08-07, 07:58 AM	As has been said, CustServ is pretty hit or miss. You can send them the same question from two different e-mails and end up with two different answers. If CustServ comes with an interpretation it's wise to consider it critically. Fine. You're suggesting that every interpretation coming from CustServ is worth. That's patently ridiculous. They might make a few mistakes, but certainly no more than others do - and they have the advantage of being part of a professional organization which includes the authors of the various bits of rule text and with a good deal of experience in D&D rules. If you've considered CustServ's interpretation critically, then you should have a well-founded reason for rejecting it. Right now, your only argument is, "well, it's conceivable to come up with an alternative interpretation". Somebody asked CustServ the question precisely because the answer wasn't obvious. Of course it's conceivable to come up with some alternative interpretation! CustServ gave a basic interpretation, saying that the Swordsage class ablity works when unarmored . Additionally, I just gave reasons why that interpretation makes more sense that the alternative; namely consistency with all other class abilities limited by armor, and logically with the concept of Touch AC which get's worse when you take off armor. So can you conceivable rule otherwise? Sure, conceivably. Heck, what does CustServ say about this? Of course your DM is allowed to rule however he/she wishes. Thank you for bringing this to our attention! right.
eamon 09-08-07, 08:05 AM	My only point, eamon, was that it wasn't a possibility that made "no sense at all." My group and I tend to play as RAW as possible, unless it would harm the game to do so, and this rule as written doesn't cause any problems. In fact, it's helpful in a way, as it fixes the monk or ninja ac bonus stacking issue. I also play by RAW unless it harm the game to do so. I'm not disagreeing with the printed glyph's, I'm disagreeing with your interpretation of them - an interpretation which depends on the context of the entirety of the D&D rule set, and not just those few letters. And you can fix the stacking issues simply by not allowing multiple Wis to AC's to stack, since they're the essentially the same effect and thus shouldn't stack.
heffroncm 09-08-07, 10:43 AM	I'm sorry we've ended up at such odds over this. I never intended it to become an argument of this nature. Our DM'ing styles differ, in that you houserule when it makes logical sense, and I only houserule in extreme circumstances that really, really need it. Considering that anyone can get Wis + 1 to AC while unarmored for 13,000 gp, I never saw this as an extreme circumstance. It can be argued that it doesn't make much sense, but from the standpoint of game mechanics and balance I do not beleive it needs any special fixing. That's all I've been trying to say. As to the CustServ question, yes, I do question everything that they say. I've seen far too many contraditctions, and lately flat out refusals to make rules interpretations. When questioned about the ability to apply Power Attack damage to the vestige Otiax's melee touch attack, they said it can be done either way and is up to the DM, elaborating further that it is not their job to make rules decisions. I feel anything out of CustServ has to be treated as unofficial as any other houserule.