4 ponderings [Archive] - Wizards Community

4 ponderings [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Anaxim
08-11-07, 03:37 PM I am about to start an adventure to a group of 4 10th level.
I was pondering 4 things: Starting wealth, Encounters, EXP by ECL and group split EXP.

1: The starting wealth of chars should be what's written in DMG135, char wealth by level? Or some other variable?
2: What encounters are a status quo in most levels? For those who have Bioware's Neverwinter Nights: something like that?
3: In encounters, how do I set EXP? ECL to know the general challenge and by single monster as DMG38 states?
4: In regard to 3, A killed CR10 to a level 10 gives 3000 EXP, so 4 level 10 get 3000/4=750 EXP?

Thanks in advance for answers.
SillyRobot
08-11-07, 05:51 PM 1) The Wealth chart is a suggested amount that adventures from WoTC will take into consideration as the adventure is being created.

What the DM feels is appropriate is heavily influenced by the style of campaign he plans to run. That being said, it is a reasonable objective amount to assign.

2) I do not understand the question. Status quo (in D&D terms) usually refers to the sections of the game world presenting the same potential challenges to adventurers regardless of the current level of those adventurers. If the group fought giant spiders in the heavy spider forest at level 3, the forest will still have giant spiders when the party returns at level 7.

3) Experience is granted based upon the CR of individual creatures/challenges in an encounter. Each character receives a share of the experience generated based upon the number of character earning experience and the character's level in comparison to the CR of the challenge.

4) Yes. Each character would receive 750 xp in your example. If the party had 1 11th, 2 10th, and 1 9th level characters, the 2 10th levels would receive 750 xp, the 11th would receive one quarter of the reward an CR10 grants at 11th level and the 9th would receive one quarter of the reward granted by a CR10 to a 9th level.
Anaxim
08-11-07, 06:11 PM Thank you, helps a bunch.
About the second question: Would that same forest house encounters for 7th levels char when they return? Meaning the same sized spiders, but for 7th level encounters.
DrMorganes
08-11-07, 06:19 PM Certainly!

Perhaps at 7th Level the PCs must journey deeper into the heart of the ancient forest. As they do so they encounter creatures as ancient and strange as the forest itself.

If you're hung up on spiders, and have read Harry Potter, consider the spiders in the Forbidden Forest. They range in size from the Small Monstrous variety to much, much larger! If HP isn't your cup of tea (sic), consider the spiders of Mirkwood in The Hobbit.
SillyRobot
08-11-07, 06:20 PM Thank you, helps a bunch.
About the second question: Would that same forest house encounters for 7th levels char when they return? Meaning the same sized spiders, but for 7th level encounters.

That pretty much sums up the opposite of status-quo (otherwise known as tailored encounters).

Status quo world encounters generally only change if there is a fundamental change to the environment which affects the nature of possible encounters -- a natural disaster, a war, a planar incursion which affects the surrounding, whatever.

Once the party maps/understands the encounter that are likely in an area, that area remains generally stable.

If the group runs into CR 3 creatures in a section of forest at first level, they are reasonably certain to run into CR 3 creatures at 3rd level, 5th level, or 17th level should they keep returning to the area.
Anaxim
08-12-07, 04:40 PM Pondered up another thing: Monetary rewards from encounters - Lots of coinage or fitting items worth a fair amount of the gold by ECL table?
MarkB
08-12-07, 06:27 PM Pondered up another thing: Monetary rewards from encounters - Lots of coinage or fitting items worth a fair amount of the gold by ECL table?

Depends on your campaign world. The DMG random treasure tables are acknowledged to be clunky and unreliable for treasure generation by many people, including WotC, who produced a far better system in the Magic Item Compendium. If you intend to generate treasure randomly and have the MIC available, use those.

If you do end up using the DMG tables, they tend to generate ridiculous amounts of copper and silver coinage that's barely worth the trouble of hauling out of a dungeon. Try and keep these to a minimum - convert upwards to an equal monetary value in the form of gold or platinum, for the convenience of both you and your players.

Bear in mind that the default rules assume that characters will be able to exchange money for items (magical and non-magical) fairly freely at reasonably regular intervals. If this is not the case in your world, then slant your treasures more towards containing useful items rather than coins, art and gems.
Anaxim
08-12-07, 07:16 PM I am aware of that.
My campaign world is homebrew: The max you can find in stores, and those are expensive too, are level 14 magic items (going by MIC). Magic is scarce and so are magical beings.
This gives me a problem: I hate giving away tons of gold, but what do I give away instead? Sure, I can have that one Manticore have a bunch of rotting corpses with gear in her lair (Which solves the hoard on beasts question, it's not that it collects, it's just there from previous encounters.). But how about dragons? Contrary to all other Magical Beasts, dragons are far from nearly extinct, which is why they are a primary threat. How do I give a dragon a proper hoard fit to his treasure scale given that I cannot give him powerful magic item, since few can carry those? Usually the Wizards and Liches who make the uber items keep them to themselves...
When my party reaches 20th level, what kind of rewards would they get from Shadow/Ethereal dragons?
This is basicly my problem, rewarding for encounters with scarce magic.
Marcus Majarra
08-12-07, 08:07 PM 1: The starting wealth of chars should be what's written in DMG135, char wealth by level? Or some other variable?
The starting wealth should be at this value or pretty close to it. The reason wealth per level exists is to further ensure the balance of encounters. You see, a PC's ability is determined by a combination or race, classes, and equipment. The DMG indicates what kind of a threat CR and encounter levels represent when set against a party of any given level. If you start to adjust the wealth of the characters in a significant way, it's natural that the PCs ability to deal with encounters will vary (encounters will be easier for richer PCs, since they can afford more equipment; the reverse is also true).

2: What encounters are a status quo in most levels? For those who have Bioware's Neverwinter Nights: something like that?
The DMG boasts multiple charts for encounters you can set according to various levels of play. You can find them, among other places, on DMG79-82, and starting on DMG87. If you want status quo encounters (as defined on DMG48), you can simply select encounters from these charts that match the terrain, regardless of the level the party is. These encounters are fixed and will never change. If you want tailored encounters (those that follow the party level), you should roll on tables appropriate for the party's level or select encounters from the charts that are adequate with respect to the party level.

3: In encounters, how do I set EXP? ECL to know the general challenge and by single monster as DMG38 states?
ECL has nothing to do with challenge. ECL has to do with how strong a PC is. For example, if one PC of ECL 8 and three PCs of ECL 7 fight a CR9 creature, the first PC receives 25% of a CR9 reward for 8th-level characters, and each of the other PCs receives 25% of a CR9 reward for 7th-level characters. You determine each monster's CR and calculate experience for each creature individually.

4: In regard to 3, A killed CR10 to a level 10 gives 3000 EXP, so 4 level 10 get 3000/4=750 EXP?
That's correct, assuming all PCs are of the same level.

This gives me a problem: I hate giving away tons of gold, but what do I give away instead? Sure, I can have that one Manticore have a bunch of rotting corpses with gear in her lair (Which solves the hoard on beasts question, it's not that it collects, it's just there from previous encounters.). But how about dragons? Contrary to all other Magical Beasts, dragons are far from nearly extinct, which is why they are a primary threat. How do I give a dragon a proper hoard fit to his treasure scale given that I cannot give him powerful magic item, since few can carry those? Usually the Wizards and Liches who make the uber items keep them to themselves...
When my party reaches 20th level, what kind of rewards would they get from Shadow/Ethereal dragons?
This is basicly my problem, rewarding for encounters with scarce magic.
The thing is: high-level characters need to have their appropriate equipment to fight high-level opponents according to expected standards. At some point or another, they will need to use high-level items. In any case, the MIC has the answer for you. If you don't want to award a few high-level items, you can award a larger number of lower-level items. The chart for converting item levels to their equivalent in a bigger number of items is on MIC228.

For example, you can convert the typical item levels of a CR20 opponent to items of no more than 14th-level:

2 level 18 items become 4 level 15 items, which become 8 level 13 items.
1 level 17 item becomes 2 level 15 items, which become 4 level 13 items.
1 level 16 item becomes 2 level 14 items.
1 level 15 item becomes 2 level 13 items.
The level 14 item remains unchanged.

As such, a CR20 opponent can award three 14th-level items and fourteen 13th-level items.
MarkB
08-13-07, 03:09 AM I am aware of that.
My campaign world is homebrew: The max you can find in stores, and those are expensive too, are level 14 magic items (going by MIC). Magic is scarce and so are magical beings.
This gives me a problem: I hate giving away tons of gold, but what do I give away instead? Sure, I can have that one Manticore have a bunch of rotting corpses with gear in her lair (Which solves the hoard on beasts question, it's not that it collects, it's just there from previous encounters.). But how about dragons? Contrary to all other Magical Beasts, dragons are far from nearly extinct, which is why they are a primary threat. How do I give a dragon a proper hoard fit to his treasure scale given that I cannot give him powerful magic item, since few can carry those? Usually the Wizards and Liches who make the uber items keep them to themselves...
When my party reaches 20th level, what kind of rewards would they get from Shadow/Ethereal dragons?
This is basicly my problem, rewarding for encounters with scarce magic.
Well, one thing I'd point out is that dragons are natural sorcerers and usually magically adept, so they're as likely to be manufacturing high-level items as any wizard or lich.

Aside from that, go with Marcus Majarra's advice - if your PCs don't have at least fairly level-appropriate gear, you'll have a big headache choosing and adjusting opponents to suit them.
Anaxim
08-13-07, 08:39 AM First, my group does have level 14 items: +3 weapons and +4 armors, and learning from NWN, it's plenty. I survived on my +1 Fire Greataxe until level, when it was upgraded. In total, both weapons were +1 and +3 respectively.
About the dragon part, true. I do, however, doubt Dragons have any reason to amass scrolls and masterwork weapons to create an array of shinys for their hoard.
Further more, all DR/magic, except Dragons', has been eliminated. Thus, the use of magical weaponary has lesser importance.
Last, any magical item dating back more then several centuries has greater power, back when my setting was filled with magic. Thus all Relics, Artifacts and level 15+ magical items can be found within ruins from old time, or alternate planes, which are filled to the brim with magic.
If the players find their way to cities on either the Shadow or Ethereal planes, they can get more magical items of higher levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Anaxim 08-11-07, 03:37 PM	I am about to start an adventure to a group of 4 10th level. I was pondering 4 things: Starting wealth, Encounters, EXP by ECL and group split EXP. 1: The starting wealth of chars should be what's written in DMG135, char wealth by level? Or some other variable? 2: What encounters are a status quo in most levels? For those who have Bioware's Neverwinter Nights: something like that? 3: In encounters, how do I set EXP? ECL to know the general challenge and by single monster as DMG38 states? 4: In regard to 3, A killed CR10 to a level 10 gives 3000 EXP, so 4 level 10 get 3000/4=750 EXP? Thanks in advance for answers.
SillyRobot 08-11-07, 05:51 PM	1) The Wealth chart is a suggested amount that adventures from WoTC will take into consideration as the adventure is being created. What the DM feels is appropriate is heavily influenced by the style of campaign he plans to run. That being said, it is a reasonable objective amount to assign. 2) I do not understand the question. Status quo (in D&D terms) usually refers to the sections of the game world presenting the same potential challenges to adventurers regardless of the current level of those adventurers. If the group fought giant spiders in the heavy spider forest at level 3, the forest will still have giant spiders when the party returns at level 7. 3) Experience is granted based upon the CR of individual creatures/challenges in an encounter. Each character receives a share of the experience generated based upon the number of character earning experience and the character's level in comparison to the CR of the challenge. 4) Yes. Each character would receive 750 xp in your example. If the party had 1 11th, 2 10th, and 1 9th level characters, the 2 10th levels would receive 750 xp, the 11th would receive one quarter of the reward an CR10 grants at 11th level and the 9th would receive one quarter of the reward granted by a CR10 to a 9th level.
Anaxim 08-11-07, 06:11 PM	Thank you, helps a bunch. About the second question: Would that same forest house encounters for 7th levels char when they return? Meaning the same sized spiders, but for 7th level encounters.
DrMorganes 08-11-07, 06:19 PM	Certainly! Perhaps at 7th Level the PCs must journey deeper into the heart of the ancient forest. As they do so they encounter creatures as ancient and strange as the forest itself. If you're hung up on spiders, and have read Harry Potter, consider the spiders in the Forbidden Forest. They range in size from the Small Monstrous variety to much, much larger! If HP isn't your cup of tea (sic), consider the spiders of Mirkwood in The Hobbit.
SillyRobot 08-11-07, 06:20 PM	Thank you, helps a bunch. About the second question: Would that same forest house encounters for 7th levels char when they return? Meaning the same sized spiders, but for 7th level encounters. That pretty much sums up the opposite of status-quo (otherwise known as tailored encounters). Status quo world encounters generally only change if there is a fundamental change to the environment which affects the nature of possible encounters -- a natural disaster, a war, a planar incursion which affects the surrounding, whatever. Once the party maps/understands the encounter that are likely in an area, that area remains generally stable. If the group runs into CR 3 creatures in a section of forest at first level, they are reasonably certain to run into CR 3 creatures at 3rd level, 5th level, or 17th level should they keep returning to the area.
Anaxim 08-12-07, 04:40 PM	Pondered up another thing: Monetary rewards from encounters - Lots of coinage or fitting items worth a fair amount of the gold by ECL table?
MarkB 08-12-07, 06:27 PM	Pondered up another thing: Monetary rewards from encounters - Lots of coinage or fitting items worth a fair amount of the gold by ECL table? Depends on your campaign world. The DMG random treasure tables are acknowledged to be clunky and unreliable for treasure generation by many people, including WotC, who produced a far better system in the Magic Item Compendium. If you intend to generate treasure randomly and have the MIC available, use those. If you do end up using the DMG tables, they tend to generate ridiculous amounts of copper and silver coinage that's barely worth the trouble of hauling out of a dungeon. Try and keep these to a minimum - convert upwards to an equal monetary value in the form of gold or platinum, for the convenience of both you and your players. Bear in mind that the default rules assume that characters will be able to exchange money for items (magical and non-magical) fairly freely at reasonably regular intervals. If this is not the case in your world, then slant your treasures more towards containing useful items rather than coins, art and gems.
Anaxim 08-12-07, 07:16 PM	I am aware of that. My campaign world is homebrew: The max you can find in stores, and those are expensive too, are level 14 magic items (going by MIC). Magic is scarce and so are magical beings. This gives me a problem: I hate giving away tons of gold, but what do I give away instead? Sure, I can have that one Manticore have a bunch of rotting corpses with gear in her lair (Which solves the hoard on beasts question, it's not that it collects, it's just there from previous encounters.). But how about dragons? Contrary to all other Magical Beasts, dragons are far from nearly extinct, which is why they are a primary threat. How do I give a dragon a proper hoard fit to his treasure scale given that I cannot give him powerful magic item, since few can carry those? Usually the Wizards and Liches who make the uber items keep them to themselves... When my party reaches 20th level, what kind of rewards would they get from Shadow/Ethereal dragons? This is basicly my problem, rewarding for encounters with scarce magic.
Marcus Majarra 08-12-07, 08:07 PM	1: The starting wealth of chars should be what's written in DMG135, char wealth by level? Or some other variable? The starting wealth should be at this value or pretty close to it. The reason wealth per level exists is to further ensure the balance of encounters. You see, a PC's ability is determined by a combination or race, classes, and equipment. The DMG indicates what kind of a threat CR and encounter levels represent when set against a party of any given level. If you start to adjust the wealth of the characters in a significant way, it's natural that the PCs ability to deal with encounters will vary (encounters will be easier for richer PCs, since they can afford more equipment; the reverse is also true). 2: What encounters are a status quo in most levels? For those who have Bioware's Neverwinter Nights: something like that? The DMG boasts multiple charts for encounters you can set according to various levels of play. You can find them, among other places, on DMG79-82, and starting on DMG87. If you want status quo encounters (as defined on DMG48), you can simply select encounters from these charts that match the terrain, regardless of the level the party is. These encounters are fixed and will never change. If you want tailored encounters (those that follow the party level), you should roll on tables appropriate for the party's level or select encounters from the charts that are adequate with respect to the party level. 3: In encounters, how do I set EXP? ECL to know the general challenge and by single monster as DMG38 states? ECL has nothing to do with challenge. ECL has to do with how strong a PC is. For example, if one PC of ECL 8 and three PCs of ECL 7 fight a CR9 creature, the first PC receives 25% of a CR9 reward for 8th-level characters, and each of the other PCs receives 25% of a CR9 reward for 7th-level characters. You determine each monster's CR and calculate experience for each creature individually. 4: In regard to 3, A killed CR10 to a level 10 gives 3000 EXP, so 4 level 10 get 3000/4=750 EXP? That's correct, assuming all PCs are of the same level. This gives me a problem: I hate giving away tons of gold, but what do I give away instead? Sure, I can have that one Manticore have a bunch of rotting corpses with gear in her lair (Which solves the hoard on beasts question, it's not that it collects, it's just there from previous encounters.). But how about dragons? Contrary to all other Magical Beasts, dragons are far from nearly extinct, which is why they are a primary threat. How do I give a dragon a proper hoard fit to his treasure scale given that I cannot give him powerful magic item, since few can carry those? Usually the Wizards and Liches who make the uber items keep them to themselves... When my party reaches 20th level, what kind of rewards would they get from Shadow/Ethereal dragons? This is basicly my problem, rewarding for encounters with scarce magic. The thing is: high-level characters need to have their appropriate equipment to fight high-level opponents according to expected standards. At some point or another, they will need to use high-level items. In any case, the MIC has the answer for you. If you don't want to award a few high-level items, you can award a larger number of lower-level items. The chart for converting item levels to their equivalent in a bigger number of items is on MIC228. For example, you can convert the typical item levels of a CR20 opponent to items of no more than 14th-level: 2 level 18 items become 4 level 15 items, which become 8 level 13 items. 1 level 17 item becomes 2 level 15 items, which become 4 level 13 items. 1 level 16 item becomes 2 level 14 items. 1 level 15 item becomes 2 level 13 items. The level 14 item remains unchanged. As such, a CR20 opponent can award three 14th-level items and fourteen 13th-level items.
MarkB 08-13-07, 03:09 AM	I am aware of that. My campaign world is homebrew: The max you can find in stores, and those are expensive too, are level 14 magic items (going by MIC). Magic is scarce and so are magical beings. This gives me a problem: I hate giving away tons of gold, but what do I give away instead? Sure, I can have that one Manticore have a bunch of rotting corpses with gear in her lair (Which solves the hoard on beasts question, it's not that it collects, it's just there from previous encounters.). But how about dragons? Contrary to all other Magical Beasts, dragons are far from nearly extinct, which is why they are a primary threat. How do I give a dragon a proper hoard fit to his treasure scale given that I cannot give him powerful magic item, since few can carry those? Usually the Wizards and Liches who make the uber items keep them to themselves... When my party reaches 20th level, what kind of rewards would they get from Shadow/Ethereal dragons? This is basicly my problem, rewarding for encounters with scarce magic. Well, one thing I'd point out is that dragons are natural sorcerers and usually magically adept, so they're as likely to be manufacturing high-level items as any wizard or lich. Aside from that, go with Marcus Majarra's advice - if your PCs don't have at least fairly level-appropriate gear, you'll have a big headache choosing and adjusting opponents to suit them.
Anaxim 08-13-07, 08:39 AM	First, my group does have level 14 items: +3 weapons and +4 armors, and learning from NWN, it's plenty. I survived on my +1 Fire Greataxe until level, when it was upgraded. In total, both weapons were +1 and +3 respectively. About the dragon part, true. I do, however, doubt Dragons have any reason to amass scrolls and masterwork weapons to create an array of shinys for their hoard. Further more, all DR/magic, except Dragons', has been eliminated. Thus, the use of magical weaponary has lesser importance. Last, any magical item dating back more then several centuries has greater power, back when my setting was filled with magic. Thus all Relics, Artifacts and level 15+ magical items can be found within ruins from old time, or alternate planes, which are filled to the brim with magic. If the players find their way to cities on either the Shadow or Ethereal planes, they can get more magical items of higher levels.