5 foot move and spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

5 foot move and spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jacob22
09-11-07, 12:34 PM Sorry if it's been asked before but I can't find threads that answer my question. Is there anything to stop a caster from taking a 5 foot move back so that they almost never have to make a concentration check to cast a spell?
PhaedrusXY
09-11-07, 12:36 PM No. It is a standard tactic.

Of course, if their enemy has reach, a 5 foot step won't get them out of it.
foxtail
09-11-07, 12:52 PM Catching the caster while he's standing on difficult terrain would do it. Or make some difficult terrain of your own with a spell, or caltrops, or whatever else you can find. The knight class from the PH2 gets an ability that effectively makes threatened squares into difficult terrain, thus stopping the step.

Or...

*Reduce his speed to 5 or less.
*Try tanglefoot bags, especially against casting classes that don't have great Reflex saves.
*Maneuver (or bull rush) him against a wall.
*Surround him with your teammates; it's hilariously cruel to put an invisible rogue behind an enemy caster for just such an occasion.
*Take the Pursuit feat from the Ebrerron Campaign Setting, and step with him when he goes. I think there's a Bo9S martial maneuver that allows this, too.
Some_call_me_Tim
09-11-07, 04:42 PM The general response is to ready an action to either attack when he casts (you are allowed to take a 5-foot step as part of a readied action) or attack when he moves this allows you to attack whether he casts or not and then sets you up nicely for an AoO (or at least force him to cast defensively).

My preferred method is just kill the bugger before his turn. :P
zorgling25
09-13-07, 12:06 PM The general response is to ready an action to either attack when he casts (you are allowed to take a 5-foot step as part of a readied action) or attack when he moves this allows you to attack whether he casts or not and then sets you up nicely for an AoO (or at least force him to cast defensively).

You can't ready an action against 2 separate things. You can however say "I ready an attack for the caster performing an action", and then trip him before he can make his 5-ft step.
Some_call_me_Tim
09-13-07, 03:09 PM You can't ready an action against 2 separate things.That actually depends on the DM, but what I was trying to say is you could ready an action with the trigger "When he casts..." or alternatively you could ready an action with the trigger of "When he moves...." I was not trying to say with a composite trigger of "When he casts or moves..."
zorgling25
09-13-07, 04:44 PM That actually depends on the DM, but what I was trying to say is you could ready an action with the trigger "When he casts..." or alternatively you could ready an action with the trigger of "When he moves...." I was not trying to say with a composite trigger of "When he casts or moves..."

Ah, my mistake.
StevenO
09-13-07, 10:25 PM Actually using a ready attack can still prevent spellcasting provided you haven't moved yet. You ready an attack for when he casts a spell, the wizard takes the standard 5' step back and begins to cast a spell, your action is triggered and you can take YOUR 5' step up to the wizard and smack him before his spell can go off.
Colmarr
09-13-07, 10:47 PM You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

Unfortunately, the bolded text pretty much screws Ready as a counter-caster tactic.

Generally speaking, you've either already moved to reach the caster (first round), or taken at least a 5-ft step to keep up with his 5-ft stepping (later rounds). Ready is only really viable if you can get the caster to stay in 1 square for at least a round (usually by tripping or grappling).
Nom
09-14-07, 08:27 AM You can't ready an action against 2 separate things.Actually, nothing in the rules explicitly prevents this. DMG pg 25-26 does note that characters must ready a specific action and does encourage players to be specific about their trigger conditions, but does not in any way prevent a set of reasonably related trigger conditions that all trigger the same action.

Of course, the DM must judge what is reasonable, but I see nothing unreasonable about "attempts to move away or cast a spell". Both are readily discernable to the character and both are responded to by an attack.
Some_call_me_Tim
09-14-07, 01:53 PM Ready is only really viable if you can get the caster to stay in 1 square for at least a round (usually by tripping or grappling).True, you need to start adjacent to the caster for it to work, but it does happen, especially against casters using touch attacks.

I house rule that you can ready a 'partial charge' as your only action on your turn, which is a much more viable tactic to counter the 5-foot step/cast shuffle.

Of course, the DM must judge what is reasonable, but I see nothing unreasonable about "attempts to move away or cast a spell". Both are readily discernable to the character and both are responded to by an attack.I generally allow either multiple triggers on one target ("attack that mage if he casts or moves") or a single trigger on multiple targets ("attack the first enemy to cast"), but I find this is hardly universal. I see the single condition ruling at most tables.

Personally, I find a creative player (given enough time) can often phrase a 'single' condition to do what he wants anyway, so all the DM really accomplishes is slowing the game down.
eamon
09-17-07, 03:04 PM *Surround him with your teammates; it's hilariously cruel to put an invisible rogue behind an enemy caster for just such an occasion.

That sounds like a neat trick.

It does make me wonder what happens when you enter a square occupied by an invisible creature.

Hmm maybe this belongs on a separate thread....
weasel0
09-17-07, 08:55 PM Attack of Oppertunity and ejection to the last legal space the creature was in.
I'd then rule that that uses more movement than just a 5'step and triggers a new AoO from any other individuals that maybe currently threatening.
1 ton ghost
09-21-07, 12:05 AM it's a simple enough problem.

-someone suggested tanglefoot bags: easy AC, normally don't have a slashing weapon beyond dagger, and it's probably not even out, realistically there for at least 3 rnds
-force his hand by mobility: threaten him often, make him withdraw (this also keeps him from casting) to progressively $hit terrain, that way he can't 5ft into debris or difficult ground, or fog/darkness, or undergrowth, etc.
-grapple..."it's so perfect it's retarded."-peter griffin. no mage hardly ever has stood up to your tank or monk when he's being twisted into a pretzel. and of course the rogue is standing by to Sneak Attack the flat-footed poor soul to boot.
-stealth: work up on him discretely so he doesn't even know to 5ft out or Combat Cast. he draws an AoO, you attack, may foil the spell and you're still adjacent hopefully.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jacob22 09-11-07, 12:34 PM	Sorry if it's been asked before but I can't find threads that answer my question. Is there anything to stop a caster from taking a 5 foot move back so that they almost never have to make a concentration check to cast a spell?
PhaedrusXY 09-11-07, 12:36 PM	No. It is a standard tactic. Of course, if their enemy has reach, a 5 foot step won't get them out of it.
foxtail 09-11-07, 12:52 PM	Catching the caster while he's standing on difficult terrain would do it. Or make some difficult terrain of your own with a spell, or caltrops, or whatever else you can find. The knight class from the PH2 gets an ability that effectively makes threatened squares into difficult terrain, thus stopping the step. Or... Reduce his speed to 5 or less. Try tanglefoot bags, especially against casting classes that don't have great Reflex saves. Maneuver (or bull rush) him against a wall. Surround him with your teammates; it's hilariously cruel to put an invisible rogue behind an enemy caster for just such an occasion. *Take the Pursuit feat from the Ebrerron Campaign Setting, and step with him when he goes. I think there's a Bo9S martial maneuver that allows this, too.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-11-07, 04:42 PM	The general response is to ready an action to either attack when he casts (you are allowed to take a 5-foot step as part of a readied action) or attack when he moves this allows you to attack whether he casts or not and then sets you up nicely for an AoO (or at least force him to cast defensively). My preferred method is just kill the bugger before his turn. :P
zorgling25 09-13-07, 12:06 PM	The general response is to ready an action to either attack when he casts (you are allowed to take a 5-foot step as part of a readied action) or attack when he moves this allows you to attack whether he casts or not and then sets you up nicely for an AoO (or at least force him to cast defensively). You can't ready an action against 2 separate things. You can however say "I ready an attack for the caster performing an action", and then trip him before he can make his 5-ft step.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-13-07, 03:09 PM	You can't ready an action against 2 separate things.That actually depends on the DM, but what I was trying to say is you could ready an action with the trigger "When he casts..." or alternatively you could ready an action with the trigger of "When he moves...." I was not trying to say with a composite trigger of "When he casts or moves..."
zorgling25 09-13-07, 04:44 PM	That actually depends on the DM, but what I was trying to say is you could ready an action with the trigger "When he casts..." or alternatively you could ready an action with the trigger of "When he moves...." I was not trying to say with a composite trigger of "When he casts or moves..." Ah, my mistake.
StevenO 09-13-07, 10:25 PM	Actually using a ready attack can still prevent spellcasting provided you haven't moved yet. You ready an attack for when he casts a spell, the wizard takes the standard 5' step back and begins to cast a spell, your action is triggered and you can take YOUR 5' step up to the wizard and smack him before his spell can go off.
Colmarr 09-13-07, 10:47 PM	You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round. Unfortunately, the bolded text pretty much screws Ready as a counter-caster tactic. Generally speaking, you've either already moved to reach the caster (first round), or taken at least a 5-ft step to keep up with his 5-ft stepping (later rounds). Ready is only really viable if you can get the caster to stay in 1 square for at least a round (usually by tripping or grappling).
Nom 09-14-07, 08:27 AM	You can't ready an action against 2 separate things.Actually, nothing in the rules explicitly prevents this. DMG pg 25-26 does note that characters must ready a specific action and does encourage players to be specific about their trigger conditions, but does not in any way prevent a set of reasonably related trigger conditions that all trigger the same action. Of course, the DM must judge what is reasonable, but I see nothing unreasonable about "attempts to move away or cast a spell". Both are readily discernable to the character and both are responded to by an attack.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-14-07, 01:53 PM	Ready is only really viable if you can get the caster to stay in 1 square for at least a round (usually by tripping or grappling).True, you need to start adjacent to the caster for it to work, but it does happen, especially against casters using touch attacks. I house rule that you can ready a 'partial charge' as your only action on your turn, which is a much more viable tactic to counter the 5-foot step/cast shuffle. Of course, the DM must judge what is reasonable, but I see nothing unreasonable about "attempts to move away or cast a spell". Both are readily discernable to the character and both are responded to by an attack.I generally allow either multiple triggers on one target ("attack that mage if he casts or moves") or a single trigger on multiple targets ("attack the first enemy to cast"), but I find this is hardly universal. I see the single condition ruling at most tables. Personally, I find a creative player (given enough time) can often phrase a 'single' condition to do what he wants anyway, so all the DM really accomplishes is slowing the game down.
eamon 09-17-07, 03:04 PM	*Surround him with your teammates; it's hilariously cruel to put an invisible rogue behind an enemy caster for just such an occasion. That sounds like a neat trick. It does make me wonder what happens when you enter a square occupied by an invisible creature. Hmm maybe this belongs on a separate thread....
weasel0 09-17-07, 08:55 PM	Attack of Oppertunity and ejection to the last legal space the creature was in. I'd then rule that that uses more movement than just a 5'step and triggers a new AoO from any other individuals that maybe currently threatening.
1 ton ghost 09-21-07, 12:05 AM	it's a simple enough problem. -someone suggested tanglefoot bags: easy AC, normally don't have a slashing weapon beyond dagger, and it's probably not even out, realistically there for at least 3 rnds -force his hand by mobility: threaten him often, make him withdraw (this also keeps him from casting) to progressively $hit terrain, that way he can't 5ft into debris or difficult ground, or fog/darkness, or undergrowth, etc. -grapple..."it's so perfect it's retarded."-peter griffin. no mage hardly ever has stood up to your tank or monk when he's being twisted into a pretzel. and of course the rogue is standing by to Sneak Attack the flat-footed poor soul to boot. -stealth: work up on him discretely so he doesn't even know to 5ft out or Combat Cast. he draws an AoO, you attack, may foil the spell and you're still adjacent hopefully.