5 foot steps during full attack actions [Archive] - Wizards Community

5 foot steps during full attack actions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lastknightleft
08-02-07, 10:36 AM Hi,

Me and another DM are disagreeing about this and we don't have our books with us.

A level one two weapon fighter takes a full attack she currently only threatens one goblin which she drops, can she take a five foot step and hit the next goblin.

I say no, I know you can take a 5 foot step between actions say if you were taking a move equivilent action such as drawing a weapon, but a full round action is just that and therefore you can only take one before or after the full attack.

He says yes that you can take it any time during the attack.

So who is right? I know that this will actually hurt the player but it is for consitancy, page # refrences would be a help also.
Bob Loblaw
08-02-07, 10:56 AM Hi,

Me and another DM are disagreeing about this and we don't have our books with us.

A level one two weapon fighter takes a full attack she currently only threatens one goblin which she drops, can she take a five foot step and hit the next goblin.

I say no, I know you can take a 5 foot step between actions say if you were taking a move equivilent action such as drawing a weapon, but a full round action is just that and therefore you can only take one before or after the full attack.

He says yes that you can take it any time during the attack.

So who is right? I know that this will actually hurt the player but it is for consitancy, page # refrences would be a help also.

You can take a 5-foot step at any point during your tun as long as you haven't moved yet. This includes at any point in the middle of a full attack.

From the SRD:
Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

I think this may also be in the FAQ.
lastknightleft
08-02-07, 11:36 AM well in the phb they used an example of someone taking it between a standard and another action. but I gues saying during clears that up.
Eater_Of_Souls
08-02-07, 11:55 AM See PHB page 143 for detals.
As it says you have to declare a full attack to gain more then 1 attack per round.
Only movement that can be made between, after or before a full attack is 5ft step. So a move equivalent action cannot be used to move any distance but other ("move") actions can be taken.
Full attack can be made to different targets if needed but they must be within reach (you can use your 5ft step to move closer between attacks but only once).

Note that the above is for all full-round actions in combat.

Supreme cleave (name?) I think was the name for the feat to move 5ft steps between targets as long as you could "cleave" your opponents, I think your friend had that mixed up.
Frugal
08-02-07, 01:52 PM Supreme cleave (name?) I think was the name for the feat to move 5ft steps between targets as long as you could "cleave" your opponents, I think your friend had that mixed up.

Supreme cleave still only limits you to the 1 5' step, cleave and great cleave don't allow any movement between the attack that drops one opponent and the free cleave attack.
Eater_Of_Souls
08-02-07, 02:04 PM Supreme cleave still only limits you to the 1 5' step, cleave and great cleave don't allow any movement between the attack that drops one opponent and the free cleave attack.

They must have fixed it then since I could swear it allowed endless amounts of 5ft steps as long as those being cleaved were 5ft apart.
Not that that really matters when it's rare to drop 2 creatures let alone 3 in one round.
Kouk
08-03-07, 11:46 PM Here is the literal text, this is on page 143 of the Combat chapter in the PHB, under Full Round Actions:

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
ciryx2k
08-05-07, 03:11 AM They must have fixed it then since I could swear it allowed endless amounts of 5ft steps as long as those being cleaved were 5ft apart.
Not that that really matters when it's rare to drop 2 creatures let alone 3 in one round.

Actually, they haven't "fixed" it. Supreme cleave still allows a 5-foot step between each cleave attempt.

As an example:

The fighter-type in question has supreme cleave (which is only given by 1 PrC that I know of now, can't remember the name, it's in Complete Warrior). He is facing a horde of goblins with a warchief WAY in the back. The regular goblins should pose no threat to him at his level, as supreme cleave is a very high level class ability, so he will probably one hit all of them unless he rolls a 1 on an attack roll. Lets say his attack progression is 16/11/6/1. For his first attack, he rolls and kills a goblin. Another is within reach, so he cleaves and kills the second. No other goblins are within 5 feet, but he takes a 5 foot step and can reach another, which he kills. Repeat this as you wish with a maximum of a 5 foot step between each attack. Let's say lady luck wants to favor statistics tonight and on the 20th cleave attempt, he rolls a 1... Auto-miss. Well, there went his +16 attack. Now he starts up his +11 stretch. Hit goblin, kill goblin, 5-foot step... hit goblin, kill goblin, 5-foot step. Finally another 1 shows up and his +11 turn is gone. I'm going to stop here because this is getting repetative, but you can see where I'm going with this.

Many people think supreme cleave is overpowered, but the only time it should come into play is when you are fighting things that you out-level to the point that you will get no XP for killing them anyway. If you attempt this on something your level, it won't be used often. It's really not all THAT powerful of an ability... it just has a coolness factor of 15,000%.
Frugal
08-05-07, 09:23 AM Actually, they haven't "fixed" it. Supreme cleave still allows a 5-foot step between each cleave attempt.

Nope:

Supreme Cleave: At 2nd level and higher, a frenzied berserker can take a 5-foot step between attacks when using the Cleave or Great Cleave feat. She is still limited to one such adjustment per round, so she cannot use this ability during a round in which she has already taken a 5-foot step.

(Emphasis mine)
ciryx2k
08-05-07, 02:25 PM Interesting, because:

Supreme Cleave (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, a knight protector can take a 5-foot step between attacks when using the Cleave or Great Cleave feat.

I have left nothing out of that description, it's the full thing. So I guess what we have is this:

When two different classes give different descriptions (omitting a sentance from a description does make it different) for the same ability, what happens? Do you go off the more restrictive for both? The least restrictive for both? Does each get the ability the way their particular class describes it?

I haven't checked, does anyone know if this has been covered in an errata or FAQ?

EDIT: P.S. - It also appears that the Knight Protector (the class I was referencing in my above post) is not the only class to get this ability. It seems two do, Frenzied Berserker and Knight Protector. Just thought I'd mention that.
calronmoonflower
08-05-07, 04:34 PM Interesting, because: I have left nothing out of that description, it's the full thing.

It still doesn't say that you get more than one 5-foot step.

Unless it does it doesn't override the rules for a 5-foot step.

In areas like this they usually put reminders so people don't assume that the ability overrides others rules that are related, but unmentioned.
Theogonist
08-08-07, 11:09 AM I'd also strongly suggest to use the actual feat description instead of the short description in the example character.

While English is not my first language I understand the text from p.56 as ...can take a 5 foot step. 'a' like in 'one'. If more steps are allowed shouldn't it read ...can take 5 foot steps...
Frugal
08-08-07, 12:07 PM I'd also strongly suggest to use the actual feat description instead of the short description in the example character.

While English is not my first language I understand the text from p.56 as ...can take a 5 foot step. 'a' like in 'one'. If more steps are allowed shouldn't it read ...can take 5 foot steps...

Unfortunately it's not a feat but a class feature, shared by 2 classes. This raises odd issues on how do you follow the normal "primary source" rules? I'd go by the more restrictive (and complete) version under frenzied berserker but I could see how if you don't know the feature's there as well and just read the Knight Protector class you'd run into some problems.
Theogonist
08-09-07, 11:59 AM Oh well that's what you get for jumping into a discussion without reading your sources first ;)

I agree it's quite confusing if you just read the description in the Knight Protector entry :(
Ace_of_time
08-10-07, 08:35 PM Supreme cleave still only limits you to the 1 5' step, cleave and great cleave don't allow any movement between the attack that drops one opponent and the free cleave attack.Whirlwind is better then cleave but cost more it also allows 5' step.
Frugal
08-11-07, 02:41 PM Whirlwind is better then cleave but cost more it also allows 5' step.

It depends. Assuming you're fighting a lot of easily dropped enemies supreme cleave will allow you to wipe out all those adjacent to you, then move 5' and then make a cleave attack into something else within reach, and keep going with cleave attacks (if you keep dropping). So assuming the easily dropped opponent, supreme cleave is better because you could theoretically drop more by taking the 5' step in the middle to reach new targets. Whirlwind attack is better in that you get 1 attack against anything within reach so that's arguably better for slightly sturdier opponents.
Nom
08-11-07, 08:20 PM Although the text isn't clear, it's generally accepted that you can take a 5 ft. step in the middle of whirlwind and thus bring additional targets into your reach.
Ace_of_time
08-11-07, 10:35 PM It depends. Assuming you're fighting a lot of easily dropped enemies supreme cleave will allow you to wipe out all those adjacent to you, then move 5' and then make a cleave attack into something else within reach, and keep going with cleave attacks (if you keep dropping). So assuming the easily dropped opponent, supreme cleave is better because you could theoretically drop more by taking the 5' step in the middle to reach new targets. Whirlwind attack is better in that you get 1 attack against anything within reach so that's arguably better for slightly sturdier opponents.

Why would it matter if they were easily drop. let say you have ten monster near you with in reach with a 5' step. Whirlwind would give you 1 attack no mater if they drop or not and cleave (all) only happen if they drop. Just based on what each feat does whirlwind is better.
Frugal
08-12-07, 11:56 AM Although the text isn't clear, it's generally accepted that you can take a 5 ft. step in the middle of whirlwind and thus bring additional targets into your reach.

It's completely mute on the issue, I've always read it that you declare the full attack action and that you're using whirlwind attack and how many attacks you get is determined at that point by your reach.
Frugal
08-12-07, 12:01 PM Why would it matter if they were easily drop. let say you have ten monster near you with in reach with a 5' step. Whirlwind would give you 1 attack no mater if they drop or not and cleave (all) only happen if they drop. Just beside on what each feat does whirlwind is better.

If they aren't easily dropped then 1 attack on each is definitely better, no argument there, since you can't reliably get the attacks with supreme cleave. If you rule that you can make a 5' step in the middle of whirlwind attack and keep going then it's definitely better. If you don't (I don't), then supreme cleave is better against easily dropped opponents. Take this example (sorry about the ascii art):
XXX
XXXX
XOXX
XXX

Where the X's are enemies and the O is the PC, if they're easily dropped (and this is 13 opponents so by EL guidelines should be) then he can probably drop all 8 around him, then 5' step and continue with his cleaves and drop the other 5 guys.

Edit: sorry formatting's screwed up, should be 8 around him and then another 5 up around the Northeast corner.
Ace_of_time
08-12-07, 10:43 PM Well the book says you give up your reg attacks you would get from a full attack instead get whirlwind bonus and on page 143 it says that the only movement that can be taken during a full attack action is a 5' step which can be taken before, between, or after your Attacks.
Frugal
08-13-07, 07:58 AM Well the book says you give up your reg attacks you would get from a full attack instead get whirlwind bonus and on page 143 it says that the only movement that can be taken during a full attack action is a 5' step which can be taken before, between, or after your Attacks.

Yes, but what I'm saying is that it says, "When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach." Now the question is, is who's eligible to be attacked determined when you declare the action (based on who's in reach at that time) or is it dynamically determined throughout your action should more people get within your reach (could be from you taking a 5' step or people moving in from a readied action, etc)? It doesn't say one way or the other.
Ace_of_time
08-13-07, 10:09 AM Yes, but what I'm saying is that it says, "When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach." Now the question is, is who's eligible to be attacked determined when you declare the action (based on who's in reach at that time) or is it dynamically determined throughout your action should more people get within your reach (could be from you taking a 5' step or people moving in from a readied action, etc)? It doesn't say one way or the other.

I would ask my player at that time if he would be using the 5' step and where he would be stepping to then decide how many attacks. In game the PC would get the attacks automaticly when he step forward 5'.
Salla
08-14-07, 08:00 PM Yes, but what I'm saying is that it says, "When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach." Now the question is, is who's eligible to be attacked determined when you declare the action (based on who's in reach at that time) or is it dynamically determined throughout your action should more people get within your reach (could be from you taking a 5' step or people moving in from a readied action, etc)? It doesn't say one way or the other.

If I'm reading this right ... say there's two groups of two enemies. You're adjacent to two of them, and a 5' step from being adjacent to the other two, and you have four attacks. It is perfectly legal to attack each of the two adjacent to you, take a 5' step, then attack the other two. it only matters who's in your reach when you make the attack (because you don't have to declare in advance who you're attacking with multiple attacks).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lastknightleft 08-02-07, 10:36 AM	Hi, Me and another DM are disagreeing about this and we don't have our books with us. A level one two weapon fighter takes a full attack she currently only threatens one goblin which she drops, can she take a five foot step and hit the next goblin. I say no, I know you can take a 5 foot step between actions say if you were taking a move equivilent action such as drawing a weapon, but a full round action is just that and therefore you can only take one before or after the full attack. He says yes that you can take it any time during the attack. So who is right? I know that this will actually hurt the player but it is for consitancy, page # refrences would be a help also.
Bob Loblaw 08-02-07, 10:56 AM	Hi, Me and another DM are disagreeing about this and we don't have our books with us. A level one two weapon fighter takes a full attack she currently only threatens one goblin which she drops, can she take a five foot step and hit the next goblin. I say no, I know you can take a 5 foot step between actions say if you were taking a move equivilent action such as drawing a weapon, but a full round action is just that and therefore you can only take one before or after the full attack. He says yes that you can take it any time during the attack. So who is right? I know that this will actually hurt the player but it is for consitancy, page # refrences would be a help also. You can take a 5-foot step at any point during your tun as long as you haven't moved yet. This includes at any point in the middle of a full attack. From the SRD: Take 5-Foot Step You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance. You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round. You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature. You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed. I think this may also be in the FAQ.
lastknightleft 08-02-07, 11:36 AM	well in the phb they used an example of someone taking it between a standard and another action. but I gues saying during clears that up.
Eater_Of_Souls 08-02-07, 11:55 AM	See PHB page 143 for detals. As it says you have to declare a full attack to gain more then 1 attack per round. Only movement that can be made between, after or before a full attack is 5ft step. So a move equivalent action cannot be used to move any distance but other ("move") actions can be taken. Full attack can be made to different targets if needed but they must be within reach (you can use your 5ft step to move closer between attacks but only once). Note that the above is for all full-round actions in combat. Supreme cleave (name?) I think was the name for the feat to move 5ft steps between targets as long as you could "cleave" your opponents, I think your friend had that mixed up.
Frugal 08-02-07, 01:52 PM	Supreme cleave (name?) I think was the name for the feat to move 5ft steps between targets as long as you could "cleave" your opponents, I think your friend had that mixed up. Supreme cleave still only limits you to the 1 5' step, cleave and great cleave don't allow any movement between the attack that drops one opponent and the free cleave attack.
Eater_Of_Souls 08-02-07, 02:04 PM	Supreme cleave still only limits you to the 1 5' step, cleave and great cleave don't allow any movement between the attack that drops one opponent and the free cleave attack. They must have fixed it then since I could swear it allowed endless amounts of 5ft steps as long as those being cleaved were 5ft apart. Not that that really matters when it's rare to drop 2 creatures let alone 3 in one round.
Kouk 08-03-07, 11:46 PM	Here is the literal text, this is on page 143 of the Combat chapter in the PHB, under Full Round Actions: Full Attack If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones. The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks. If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
ciryx2k 08-05-07, 03:11 AM	They must have fixed it then since I could swear it allowed endless amounts of 5ft steps as long as those being cleaved were 5ft apart. Not that that really matters when it's rare to drop 2 creatures let alone 3 in one round. Actually, they haven't "fixed" it. Supreme cleave still allows a 5-foot step between each cleave attempt. As an example: The fighter-type in question has supreme cleave (which is only given by 1 PrC that I know of now, can't remember the name, it's in Complete Warrior). He is facing a horde of goblins with a warchief WAY in the back. The regular goblins should pose no threat to him at his level, as supreme cleave is a very high level class ability, so he will probably one hit all of them unless he rolls a 1 on an attack roll. Lets say his attack progression is 16/11/6/1. For his first attack, he rolls and kills a goblin. Another is within reach, so he cleaves and kills the second. No other goblins are within 5 feet, but he takes a 5 foot step and can reach another, which he kills. Repeat this as you wish with a maximum of a 5 foot step between each attack. Let's say lady luck wants to favor statistics tonight and on the 20th cleave attempt, he rolls a 1... Auto-miss. Well, there went his +16 attack. Now he starts up his +11 stretch. Hit goblin, kill goblin, 5-foot step... hit goblin, kill goblin, 5-foot step. Finally another 1 shows up and his +11 turn is gone. I'm going to stop here because this is getting repetative, but you can see where I'm going with this. Many people think supreme cleave is overpowered, but the only time it should come into play is when you are fighting things that you out-level to the point that you will get no XP for killing them anyway. If you attempt this on something your level, it won't be used often. It's really not all THAT powerful of an ability... it just has a coolness factor of 15,000%.
Frugal 08-05-07, 09:23 AM	Actually, they haven't "fixed" it. Supreme cleave still allows a 5-foot step between each cleave attempt. Nope: Supreme Cleave: At 2nd level and higher, a frenzied berserker can take a 5-foot step between attacks when using the Cleave or Great Cleave feat. She is still limited to one such adjustment per round, so she cannot use this ability during a round in which she has already taken a 5-foot step. (Emphasis mine)
ciryx2k 08-05-07, 02:25 PM	Interesting, because: Supreme Cleave (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, a knight protector can take a 5-foot step between attacks when using the Cleave or Great Cleave feat. I have left nothing out of that description, it's the full thing. So I guess what we have is this: When two different classes give different descriptions (omitting a sentance from a description does make it different) for the same ability, what happens? Do you go off the more restrictive for both? The least restrictive for both? Does each get the ability the way their particular class describes it? I haven't checked, does anyone know if this has been covered in an errata or FAQ? EDIT: P.S. - It also appears that the Knight Protector (the class I was referencing in my above post) is not the only class to get this ability. It seems two do, Frenzied Berserker and Knight Protector. Just thought I'd mention that.
calronmoonflower 08-05-07, 04:34 PM	Interesting, because: I have left nothing out of that description, it's the full thing. It still doesn't say that you get more than one 5-foot step. Unless it does it doesn't override the rules for a 5-foot step. In areas like this they usually put reminders so people don't assume that the ability overrides others rules that are related, but unmentioned.
Theogonist 08-08-07, 11:09 AM	I'd also strongly suggest to use the actual feat description instead of the short description in the example character. While English is not my first language I understand the text from p.56 as ...can take a 5 foot step. 'a' like in 'one'. If more steps are allowed shouldn't it read ...can take 5 foot steps...
Frugal 08-08-07, 12:07 PM	I'd also strongly suggest to use the actual feat description instead of the short description in the example character. While English is not my first language I understand the text from p.56 as ...can take a 5 foot step. 'a' like in 'one'. If more steps are allowed shouldn't it read ...can take 5 foot steps... Unfortunately it's not a feat but a class feature, shared by 2 classes. This raises odd issues on how do you follow the normal "primary source" rules? I'd go by the more restrictive (and complete) version under frenzied berserker but I could see how if you don't know the feature's there as well and just read the Knight Protector class you'd run into some problems.
Theogonist 08-09-07, 11:59 AM	Oh well that's what you get for jumping into a discussion without reading your sources first ;) I agree it's quite confusing if you just read the description in the Knight Protector entry :(
Ace_of_time 08-10-07, 08:35 PM	Supreme cleave still only limits you to the 1 5' step, cleave and great cleave don't allow any movement between the attack that drops one opponent and the free cleave attack.Whirlwind is better then cleave but cost more it also allows 5' step.
Frugal 08-11-07, 02:41 PM	Whirlwind is better then cleave but cost more it also allows 5' step. It depends. Assuming you're fighting a lot of easily dropped enemies supreme cleave will allow you to wipe out all those adjacent to you, then move 5' and then make a cleave attack into something else within reach, and keep going with cleave attacks (if you keep dropping). So assuming the easily dropped opponent, supreme cleave is better because you could theoretically drop more by taking the 5' step in the middle to reach new targets. Whirlwind attack is better in that you get 1 attack against anything within reach so that's arguably better for slightly sturdier opponents.
Nom 08-11-07, 08:20 PM	Although the text isn't clear, it's generally accepted that you can take a 5 ft. step in the middle of whirlwind and thus bring additional targets into your reach.
Ace_of_time 08-11-07, 10:35 PM	It depends. Assuming you're fighting a lot of easily dropped enemies supreme cleave will allow you to wipe out all those adjacent to you, then move 5' and then make a cleave attack into something else within reach, and keep going with cleave attacks (if you keep dropping). So assuming the easily dropped opponent, supreme cleave is better because you could theoretically drop more by taking the 5' step in the middle to reach new targets. Whirlwind attack is better in that you get 1 attack against anything within reach so that's arguably better for slightly sturdier opponents. Why would it matter if they were easily drop. let say you have ten monster near you with in reach with a 5' step. Whirlwind would give you 1 attack no mater if they drop or not and cleave (all) only happen if they drop. Just based on what each feat does whirlwind is better.
Frugal 08-12-07, 11:56 AM	Although the text isn't clear, it's generally accepted that you can take a 5 ft. step in the middle of whirlwind and thus bring additional targets into your reach. It's completely mute on the issue, I've always read it that you declare the full attack action and that you're using whirlwind attack and how many attacks you get is determined at that point by your reach.
Frugal 08-12-07, 12:01 PM	Why would it matter if they were easily drop. let say you have ten monster near you with in reach with a 5' step. Whirlwind would give you 1 attack no mater if they drop or not and cleave (all) only happen if they drop. Just beside on what each feat does whirlwind is better. If they aren't easily dropped then 1 attack on each is definitely better, no argument there, since you can't reliably get the attacks with supreme cleave. If you rule that you can make a 5' step in the middle of whirlwind attack and keep going then it's definitely better. If you don't (I don't), then supreme cleave is better against easily dropped opponents. Take this example (sorry about the ascii art): XXX XXXX XOXX XXX Where the X's are enemies and the O is the PC, if they're easily dropped (and this is 13 opponents so by EL guidelines should be) then he can probably drop all 8 around him, then 5' step and continue with his cleaves and drop the other 5 guys. Edit: sorry formatting's screwed up, should be 8 around him and then another 5 up around the Northeast corner.
Ace_of_time 08-12-07, 10:43 PM	Well the book says you give up your reg attacks you would get from a full attack instead get whirlwind bonus and on page 143 it says that the only movement that can be taken during a full attack action is a 5' step which can be taken before, between, or after your Attacks.
Frugal 08-13-07, 07:58 AM	Well the book says you give up your reg attacks you would get from a full attack instead get whirlwind bonus and on page 143 it says that the only movement that can be taken during a full attack action is a 5' step which can be taken before, between, or after your Attacks. Yes, but what I'm saying is that it says, "When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach." Now the question is, is who's eligible to be attacked determined when you declare the action (based on who's in reach at that time) or is it dynamically determined throughout your action should more people get within your reach (could be from you taking a 5' step or people moving in from a readied action, etc)? It doesn't say one way or the other.
Ace_of_time 08-13-07, 10:09 AM	Yes, but what I'm saying is that it says, "When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach." Now the question is, is who's eligible to be attacked determined when you declare the action (based on who's in reach at that time) or is it dynamically determined throughout your action should more people get within your reach (could be from you taking a 5' step or people moving in from a readied action, etc)? It doesn't say one way or the other. I would ask my player at that time if he would be using the 5' step and where he would be stepping to then decide how many attacks. In game the PC would get the attacks automaticly when he step forward 5'.
Salla 08-14-07, 08:00 PM	Yes, but what I'm saying is that it says, "When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach." Now the question is, is who's eligible to be attacked determined when you declare the action (based on who's in reach at that time) or is it dynamically determined throughout your action should more people get within your reach (could be from you taking a 5' step or people moving in from a readied action, etc)? It doesn't say one way or the other. If I'm reading this right ... say there's two groups of two enemies. You're adjacent to two of them, and a 5' step from being adjacent to the other two, and you have four attacks. It is perfectly legal to attack each of the two adjacent to you, take a 5' step, then attack the other two. it only matters who's in your reach when you make the attack (because you don't have to declare in advance who you're attacking with multiple attacks).