A couple of questions here!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

A couple of questions here!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ZDB
10-16-07, 08:30 AM Well... i`ll try to make this quick

1) If a chaotic undead grabs an axiomatic weapon, it suffers the negative level penalty?
2) A weapon with the spell "vampiric touch" activated on hit it would equal how much enchantment??? +1,+2,+3? (Caster lvl 2)
3) How can a player increase it`s HP permanently (besides leveling) ??? (all options accepted)

Well thats it for now
Tnx everyone :P
Frugal
10-16-07, 09:54 AM Well... i`ll try to make this quick

1) If a chaotic undead grabs an axiomatic weapon, it suffers the negative level penalty?
2) A weapon with the spell "vampiric touch" activated on hit it would equal how much enchantment??? +1,+2,+3? (Caster lvl 2)
3) How can a player increase it`s HP permanently (besides leveling) ??? (all options accepted)

Well thats it for now
Tnx everyone :P

1, pretty sure anything suffers a negative level from an axiomatic weapon, I don't see anything to suggest that undead would be immune.

2, not sure

3, Boost CON (inherent bonus to CON would be permanent, or stat increase with levelling but that's levelling too), take toughness or the improved toughness feats.
LSMFT
10-16-07, 10:21 AM 1) If a chaotic undead grabs an axiomatic weapon, it suffers the negative level penalty?I would say they do. The negative level from wielding such a weapon is not the result of negative energy, and it sin't drain or anything like that.

2) A weapon with the spell "vampiric touch" activated on hit it would equal how much enchantment??? +1,+2,+3? (Caster lvl 2)Well, first of all, I'd think it would need to be caster-level 3 at a minimum, unless there is something out there that gets the spell in a level-one version.

1d6 negative energy damage is probably appropriate to a +1 enhancement, high end of that, and I could see someone saying +2. But it would give you a couple temp hp each hit. Not many though. Average 3.5, and no, they are from the same source so they wouldn't stack. No, it isnt the full damage from the sword. No, you can't crit for extra hit-points on this. (If you want stuff like that, it changes things radically.)

I would say this then is probably +2, solidly.

3) How can a player increase it`s HP permanently (besides leveling) ??? (all options accepted)Toughness and Improved Toughness are two feats that will up your hp. The Loremaster can get 3 as a Secret.

Other than that, I don't know of any that are permanent. Though, temp hit points can come from a variety of spells, and could probably be made into items for a continuous effect.
ZDB
10-16-07, 11:19 AM Yes for the negative level, the immunity wouldn`t count, because is not from energy drain actualli come from a supperior source, a "force of nature" so to speak, and also it doesnt drain the level, it bestows a negative level so it will affect the undead...

I`ll take the +2 for the Vamp. Touch...

Yeah both toughness feats work, but besides leveling and spells initems, is there any other option? or a spell that does that and can be made permanent in the character like... arcane sight?
goawayugh
10-16-07, 11:27 AM 1) Yes.
2) Probably +2. Keep in mind though that the temp hp will not stack. It should also probably be activated with a command work, similar to flaming.
3) Toughness, Improved Toughness, Slow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#slow) trait, I think there may have also been something in CW, not sure though.
LSMFT
10-16-07, 01:13 PM Yeah both toughness feats work, but besides leveling and spells initems, is there any other option? or a spell that does that and can be made permanent in the character like... arcane sight?As far as I know, spells grant temporary hp. Permanency couldn't work for temp hp in any meaningful way.

The easiest thing is to boost your Con, by the way.
Next, I'd look into an item that let's you cast false life a couple times per day. It would be expensive, but an Empowered false life at caster-level 10 will average like 23 temp hp per usage.

Next, you might want to look at ways to get fast healing over hp.
Followed by wats of resisting damage (DR) and then ways to not get hit in the first place, like AC and miss-chances.

Beyond that, there isn't too much I can think of.
What class/level are you? What are your hp that this is such a pressing concern?
ZDB
10-16-07, 02:14 PM Not me, i have a player who became a vampire, he was more 6 HD so he took the template from the monster manual and 6 HD + 8 LA = ECL 14 (the vampire does not gain any HD for this template), so when facing anything adequate for that ECL the difference beetween HP is INCREEEEEDIBLY BIG.

So that is reason of my question
goawayugh
10-16-07, 02:20 PM Not me, i have a player who became a vampire, he was more 6 HD so he took the template from the monster manual and 6 HD + 8 LA = ECL 14 (the vampire does not gain any HD for this template), so when facing anything adequate for that ECL the difference beetween HP is INCREEEEEDIBLY BIG.

So that is reason of my question

And now you know first hand why vampires are HORRIBLE choices for PC's. Your the DM? Good luck...
Frugal
10-16-07, 02:20 PM Not me, i have a player who became a vampire, he was more 6 HD so he took the template from the monster manual and 6 HD + 8 LA = ECL 14 (the vampire does not gain any HD for this template), so when facing anything adequate for that ECL the difference beetween HP is INCREEEEEDIBLY BIG.

So that is reason of my question

I'd say do some kind of savage progression (probably one exists) so that his vampire powers manifest themselves more slowly. Otherwise you end up with a bunch of 6th level characters stuck in EL 14 encounters or you go for EL 6 encounters and have the ECL 14 character dominating play.
LSMFT
10-16-07, 03:05 PM And now you know first hand why vampires are HORRIBLE choices for PC's.

I can't believe you said that it is so untrue.
He as of yet has no idea just how HORRIBLE a choice that was for a PC.
Skills, feats, BAB, spellcasting, crossing running water, adventuring during the day, it goes on and on. :D
Colmarr
10-17-07, 12:00 AM 1) If a chaotic undead grabs an axiomatic weapon, it suffers the negative level penalty?

Yes. Undead are not immune to "negative levels", but they are immune to "energy drain". Axiomatic weapons appear to inflict negative levels without technically inflicting energy drain and thus the undead would be affected.

2) A weapon with the spell "vampiric touch" activated on hit it would equal how much enchantment??? +1,+2,+3? (Caster lvl 2)

I'm not sure how to answer this as I'm not sure whether you mean "would it bypass v3.0 damage reduction" or "what is the equivalent enhancement rating on a use-activate Vampiric Touch spell on a weapon". If the former, the answer is "no". If the latter, I would say +2 (as it's better than Fiery or Icy).

3) How can a player increase it`s HP permanently (besides leveling) ??? (all options accepted)

The Toughness and Improved Toughness feats come to mind.
ZDB
10-17-07, 10:40 AM What do you mean that vampires sucks for character choices?
Remember it is a game of fun, so if a player wants to play with a vampire why not? just be a good DM and create something he can also exploit.
Even if he wants to play with a rat it shouldnt be a horrible choice, is not a matter of stats and feats, its about having a good time, a couple of laughs, and a break with your friends.

I just want to provide a good gaming session for everyone, and he is happy playing this, and everyone else is having fun so there is no horrible in here
:P
Frugal
10-17-07, 11:01 AM What do you mean that vampires sucks for character choices?
Remember it is a game of fun, so if a player wants to play with a vampire why not? just be a good DM and create something he can also exploit.
Even if he wants to play with a rat it shouldnt be a horrible choice, is not a matter of stats and feats, its about having a good time, a couple of laughs, and a break with your friends.

I just want to provide a good gaming session for everyone, and he is happy playing this, and everyone else is having fun so there is no horrible in here
:P

The problem is that it's an incredibly steep level adjustment, and it's rightfully so due to the abilities he gains. But, and this is a huge but, that also means significantly lower HP, lower BAB for a fighter-type and completely screwed casting for any casting class. The problem is that the CR system assumes that you'll have HP, BAB and casting according to a normal character and the vampire player is just going to come up short in a lot of respects, while being able to completely dominate play in other ways.
goawayugh
10-17-07, 12:06 PM What do you mean that vampires sucks for character choices?
Remember it is a game of fun, so if a player wants to play with a vampire why not? just be a good DM and create something he can also exploit.
Even if he wants to play with a rat it shouldnt be a horrible choice, is not a matter of stats and feats, its about having a good time, a couple of laughs, and a break with your friends.

I just want to provide a good gaming session for everyone, and he is happy playing this, and everyone else is having fun so there is no horrible in here
:P

D&D is a game. Games are played to have fun. You are absolutely correct on that. But...

DM's perspective: Any encounter you design to be a challenge to the party will either be
a) devastating to the low hp, low Fort save, low BAB vampire
b) so easy for him that it isn't even a challenge
Is having such trouble balancing encounters fun for the DM?

PC's perspective: Any encounter the DM designs will either be
a) completely devastating to you
b) a piece of cake
Is either of those option really going to be fun to play against?

It is not that a vampire in specific is a horrible choice for a PC. It is that anything with that high a LA playing with others that have no LA is horrible to balance encounters.

Now a party of all the same LA would be perfectly fine. In fact, I would LOVE to run a game of all vampires (I'm never going to get to do that though, my PC's almost always play good characters). Imagine the encounters you could come up with for that!

No one's ragging on his choice of wanting to play a vampire, just that it creates MAJOR balance issues.
LSMFT
10-17-07, 04:11 PM I criticize them based on the fact that it is a group game. The one PC having fun isn’t the point where there are 4 other people playing with him, and a vampire is very inconvenient for the rest of the party:

Whatever role you are playing, fighting, casting, skills, you aren’t going to pull your weight. So we have to pick up the slack, and then we can’t adventure in the day and have to lug your coffin across every tiny stream.

For most parties in most campaigns, a vampire PC is more trouble than any one player should inflict on the group.

Just my opinion.
ZDB
10-17-07, 09:07 PM Now a party of all the same LA would be perfectly fine. In fact, I would LOVE to run a game of all vampires (I'm never going to get to do that though, my PC's almost always play good characters). Imagine the encounters you could come up with for that!

Well... that is though luck, you are completely rigth about the idead of a complete party of vampires, really cool stuff could arise from that!!!

But in my case this party is mostly composed of evil characters, and the vampire is taking the "scouting, assasin, hit-n`-run" style of play, wich is happily welcome by the PC`s .

And it has given a twist in the plot that seems to be working fine (for now)
The low HP is not the worst problem this character is facing (he would like to improve it but is not driving him nuts) the thing is that another character has been bitten by a werewolf (and where they are Werewoves are at war with vampires) so this could get nasty :P

So all i need now is to get a paladin joining the party and all hell breaks loose!!! JAJAJA :D
IdleAltruism
10-17-07, 09:36 PM Just to let you know there is a vampiric enhancement in the MiC, +2 bonus. It basically does what you're looking for. It also has several examples of spells usable x/day, its quite useful.
ZDB
10-19-07, 08:33 AM Where can i find this enhancement???
goawayugh
10-19-07, 09:10 AM Where can i find this enhancement???

MIC=Magic Item Compendium. I believe vampiric may also be in BoVD or A&EG.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZDB 10-16-07, 08:30 AM	Well... i`ll try to make this quick 1) If a chaotic undead grabs an axiomatic weapon, it suffers the negative level penalty? 2) A weapon with the spell "vampiric touch" activated on hit it would equal how much enchantment??? +1,+2,+3? (Caster lvl 2) 3) How can a player increase it`s HP permanently (besides leveling) ??? (all options accepted) Well thats it for now Tnx everyone :P
Frugal 10-16-07, 09:54 AM	Well... i`ll try to make this quick 1) If a chaotic undead grabs an axiomatic weapon, it suffers the negative level penalty? 2) A weapon with the spell "vampiric touch" activated on hit it would equal how much enchantment??? +1,+2,+3? (Caster lvl 2) 3) How can a player increase it`s HP permanently (besides leveling) ??? (all options accepted) Well thats it for now Tnx everyone :P 1, pretty sure anything suffers a negative level from an axiomatic weapon, I don't see anything to suggest that undead would be immune. 2, not sure 3, Boost CON (inherent bonus to CON would be permanent, or stat increase with levelling but that's levelling too), take toughness or the improved toughness feats.
LSMFT 10-16-07, 10:21 AM	1) If a chaotic undead grabs an axiomatic weapon, it suffers the negative level penalty?I would say they do. The negative level from wielding such a weapon is not the result of negative energy, and it sin't drain or anything like that. 2) A weapon with the spell "vampiric touch" activated on hit it would equal how much enchantment??? +1,+2,+3? (Caster lvl 2)Well, first of all, I'd think it would need to be caster-level 3 at a minimum, unless there is something out there that gets the spell in a level-one version. 1d6 negative energy damage is probably appropriate to a +1 enhancement, high end of that, and I could see someone saying +2. But it would give you a couple temp hp each hit. Not many though. Average 3.5, and no, they are from the same source so they wouldn't stack. No, it isnt the full damage from the sword. No, you can't crit for extra hit-points on this. (If you want stuff like that, it changes things radically.) I would say this then is probably +2, solidly. 3) How can a player increase it`s HP permanently (besides leveling) ??? (all options accepted)Toughness and Improved Toughness are two feats that will up your hp. The Loremaster can get 3 as a Secret. Other than that, I don't know of any that are permanent. Though, temp hit points can come from a variety of spells, and could probably be made into items for a continuous effect.
ZDB 10-16-07, 11:19 AM	Yes for the negative level, the immunity wouldn`t count, because is not from energy drain actualli come from a supperior source, a "force of nature" so to speak, and also it doesnt drain the level, it bestows a negative level so it will affect the undead... I`ll take the +2 for the Vamp. Touch... Yeah both toughness feats work, but besides leveling and spells initems, is there any other option? or a spell that does that and can be made permanent in the character like... arcane sight?
goawayugh 10-16-07, 11:27 AM	1) Yes. 2) Probably +2. Keep in mind though that the temp hp will not stack. It should also probably be activated with a command work, similar to flaming. 3) Toughness, Improved Toughness, Slow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#slow) trait, I think there may have also been something in CW, not sure though.
LSMFT 10-16-07, 01:13 PM	Yeah both toughness feats work, but besides leveling and spells initems, is there any other option? or a spell that does that and can be made permanent in the character like... arcane sight?As far as I know, spells grant temporary hp. Permanency couldn't work for temp hp in any meaningful way. The easiest thing is to boost your Con, by the way. Next, I'd look into an item that let's you cast false life a couple times per day. It would be expensive, but an Empowered false life at caster-level 10 will average like 23 temp hp per usage. Next, you might want to look at ways to get fast healing over hp. Followed by wats of resisting damage (DR) and then ways to not get hit in the first place, like AC and miss-chances. Beyond that, there isn't too much I can think of. What class/level are you? What are your hp that this is such a pressing concern?
ZDB 10-16-07, 02:14 PM	Not me, i have a player who became a vampire, he was more 6 HD so he took the template from the monster manual and 6 HD + 8 LA = ECL 14 (the vampire does not gain any HD for this template), so when facing anything adequate for that ECL the difference beetween HP is INCREEEEEDIBLY BIG. So that is reason of my question
goawayugh 10-16-07, 02:20 PM	Not me, i have a player who became a vampire, he was more 6 HD so he took the template from the monster manual and 6 HD + 8 LA = ECL 14 (the vampire does not gain any HD for this template), so when facing anything adequate for that ECL the difference beetween HP is INCREEEEEDIBLY BIG. So that is reason of my question And now you know first hand why vampires are HORRIBLE choices for PC's. Your the DM? Good luck...
Frugal 10-16-07, 02:20 PM	Not me, i have a player who became a vampire, he was more 6 HD so he took the template from the monster manual and 6 HD + 8 LA = ECL 14 (the vampire does not gain any HD for this template), so when facing anything adequate for that ECL the difference beetween HP is INCREEEEEDIBLY BIG. So that is reason of my question I'd say do some kind of savage progression (probably one exists) so that his vampire powers manifest themselves more slowly. Otherwise you end up with a bunch of 6th level characters stuck in EL 14 encounters or you go for EL 6 encounters and have the ECL 14 character dominating play.
LSMFT 10-16-07, 03:05 PM	And now you know first hand why vampires are HORRIBLE choices for PC's. I can't believe you said that it is so untrue. He as of yet has no idea just how HORRIBLE a choice that was for a PC. Skills, feats, BAB, spellcasting, crossing running water, adventuring during the day, it goes on and on. :D
Colmarr 10-17-07, 12:00 AM	1) If a chaotic undead grabs an axiomatic weapon, it suffers the negative level penalty? Yes. Undead are not immune to "negative levels", but they are immune to "energy drain". Axiomatic weapons appear to inflict negative levels without technically inflicting energy drain and thus the undead would be affected. 2) A weapon with the spell "vampiric touch" activated on hit it would equal how much enchantment??? +1,+2,+3? (Caster lvl 2) I'm not sure how to answer this as I'm not sure whether you mean "would it bypass v3.0 damage reduction" or "what is the equivalent enhancement rating on a use-activate Vampiric Touch spell on a weapon". If the former, the answer is "no". If the latter, I would say +2 (as it's better than Fiery or Icy). 3) How can a player increase it`s HP permanently (besides leveling) ??? (all options accepted) The Toughness and Improved Toughness feats come to mind.
ZDB 10-17-07, 10:40 AM	What do you mean that vampires sucks for character choices? Remember it is a game of fun, so if a player wants to play with a vampire why not? just be a good DM and create something he can also exploit. Even if he wants to play with a rat it shouldnt be a horrible choice, is not a matter of stats and feats, its about having a good time, a couple of laughs, and a break with your friends. I just want to provide a good gaming session for everyone, and he is happy playing this, and everyone else is having fun so there is no horrible in here :P
Frugal 10-17-07, 11:01 AM	What do you mean that vampires sucks for character choices? Remember it is a game of fun, so if a player wants to play with a vampire why not? just be a good DM and create something he can also exploit. Even if he wants to play with a rat it shouldnt be a horrible choice, is not a matter of stats and feats, its about having a good time, a couple of laughs, and a break with your friends. I just want to provide a good gaming session for everyone, and he is happy playing this, and everyone else is having fun so there is no horrible in here :P The problem is that it's an incredibly steep level adjustment, and it's rightfully so due to the abilities he gains. But, and this is a huge but, that also means significantly lower HP, lower BAB for a fighter-type and completely screwed casting for any casting class. The problem is that the CR system assumes that you'll have HP, BAB and casting according to a normal character and the vampire player is just going to come up short in a lot of respects, while being able to completely dominate play in other ways.
goawayugh 10-17-07, 12:06 PM	What do you mean that vampires sucks for character choices? Remember it is a game of fun, so if a player wants to play with a vampire why not? just be a good DM and create something he can also exploit. Even if he wants to play with a rat it shouldnt be a horrible choice, is not a matter of stats and feats, its about having a good time, a couple of laughs, and a break with your friends. I just want to provide a good gaming session for everyone, and he is happy playing this, and everyone else is having fun so there is no horrible in here :P D&D is a game. Games are played to have fun. You are absolutely correct on that. But... DM's perspective: Any encounter you design to be a challenge to the party will either be a) devastating to the low hp, low Fort save, low BAB vampire b) so easy for him that it isn't even a challenge Is having such trouble balancing encounters fun for the DM? PC's perspective: Any encounter the DM designs will either be a) completely devastating to you b) a piece of cake Is either of those option really going to be fun to play against? It is not that a vampire in specific is a horrible choice for a PC. It is that anything with that high a LA playing with others that have no LA is horrible to balance encounters. Now a party of all the same LA would be perfectly fine. In fact, I would LOVE to run a game of all vampires (I'm never going to get to do that though, my PC's almost always play good characters). Imagine the encounters you could come up with for that! No one's ragging on his choice of wanting to play a vampire, just that it creates MAJOR balance issues.
LSMFT 10-17-07, 04:11 PM	I criticize them based on the fact that it is a group game. The one PC having fun isn’t the point where there are 4 other people playing with him, and a vampire is very inconvenient for the rest of the party: Whatever role you are playing, fighting, casting, skills, you aren’t going to pull your weight. So we have to pick up the slack, and then we can’t adventure in the day and have to lug your coffin across every tiny stream. For most parties in most campaigns, a vampire PC is more trouble than any one player should inflict on the group. Just my opinion.
ZDB 10-17-07, 09:07 PM	Now a party of all the same LA would be perfectly fine. In fact, I would LOVE to run a game of all vampires (I'm never going to get to do that though, my PC's almost always play good characters). Imagine the encounters you could come up with for that! Well... that is though luck, you are completely rigth about the idead of a complete party of vampires, really cool stuff could arise from that!!! But in my case this party is mostly composed of evil characters, and the vampire is taking the "scouting, assasin, hit-n`-run" style of play, wich is happily welcome by the PC`s . And it has given a twist in the plot that seems to be working fine (for now) The low HP is not the worst problem this character is facing (he would like to improve it but is not driving him nuts) the thing is that another character has been bitten by a werewolf (and where they are Werewoves are at war with vampires) so this could get nasty :P So all i need now is to get a paladin joining the party and all hell breaks loose!!! JAJAJA :D
IdleAltruism 10-17-07, 09:36 PM	Just to let you know there is a vampiric enhancement in the MiC, +2 bonus. It basically does what you're looking for. It also has several examples of spells usable x/day, its quite useful.
ZDB 10-19-07, 08:33 AM	Where can i find this enhancement???
goawayugh 10-19-07, 09:10 AM	Where can i find this enhancement??? MIC=Magic Item Compendium. I believe vampiric may also be in BoVD or A&EG.