A few Grapple related questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

A few Grapple related questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Voran
12-20-07, 04:46 AM I did a quick search of the forum and while there were some threads that had some of the same things I wanted to ask, some were really really old or didn't have all the things I wanted, so I'm starting a new one.

1. Close Quarter Fighting and Grapple.

Lets say you flubbed your first AoO and despite sticking that knife in the gut of that oncoming grappler, they still get you. Round 2 comes up:

Would it be fair to say your CQF feat lets you take another AoO on your grappler, if say you've got a light weapon or unarmed, that would apply to your new grappler check? (So you don't burn a standard action on sticking them again with your knife, instead saving that standard action for the 'get me out of here move'.)

Or does the only way to escape a grapple remain using that 1 standard action to make a (in this case) unmodified grapple check? Is CQF a one-shot feat that only works before a grapple takes affect? How do people play it.

2) Dragon Shamans. At a certain point in DS you become immune to your element type. So in a grapple, lets say you have CQF and decide the best way to deal with this pesky grappler is to drop your breath weapon...on yourself. If you're standing you basically 'spit down'. How would this play out for a grapple check? Would you apply the damage to your grapple check? Should a grappler get a reflex save vs your breath weapon if he's choosing to hang onto you? Would it be fair to say that if they want to avoid damage and take a save, succeed or fail, they voluntarily drop their grapple?

3)I'll have a couple more later, as I mull over this some more.
kuonji
12-20-07, 06:33 AM I did a quick search of the forum and while there were some threads that had some of the same things I wanted to ask, some were really really old or didn't have all the things I wanted, so I'm starting a new one.

1. Close Quarter Fighting and Grapple.

Lets say you flubbed your first AoO and despite sticking that knife in the gut of that oncoming grappler, they still get you. Round 2 comes up:

Would it be fair to say your CQF feat lets you take another AoO on your grappler, if say you've got a light weapon or unarmed, that would apply to your new grappler check? (So you don't burn a standard action on sticking them again with your knife, instead saving that standard action for the 'get me out of here move'.)

Or does the only way to escape a grapple remain using that 1 standard action to make a (in this case) unmodified grapple check? Is CQF a one-shot feat that only works before a grapple takes affect? How do people play it.

I don't know what CQF does, so I can't offer you help there. However, attempting to escape a grapple is an attack action, not a standard action. So if you have multiple attacks, or if you somehow get an AoO on your opponent, you could try to break the grapple multiple times or with the AoO. The exception to this is using Escape Artist to break a grapple, which is a standard action.

2) Dragon Shamans. At a certain point in DS you become immune to your element type. So in a grapple, lets say you have CQF and decide the best way to deal with this pesky grappler is to drop your breath weapon...on yourself. If you're standing you basically 'spit down'. How would this play out for a grapple check? Would you apply the damage to your grapple check? Should a grappler get a reflex save vs your breath weapon if he's choosing to hang onto you? Would it be fair to say that if they want to avoid damage and take a save, succeed or fail, they voluntarily drop their grapple?

3)I'll have a couple more later, as I mull over this some more.

I'd say you need to win an opposed grapple check to use your breath weapon, since you pretty much need to win an opposed grapple check to do anything in a grapple. As for the save, yes you get a save; that might sound weird but think of it this way: you and your opponent are locked up, you win a grapple check and use your breath weapon, he makes his save so perhaps he managed to get partly behind you to try and get you in a bear hug (or something like that, basically a grapple can involve a variety of maneuvering).

Edit: On second thought, perhaps you don't need to make the grapple check since breath weapons don't require attack rolls, however, I still say you'd get the save as normal.
Merestil Haye
12-20-07, 07:52 AM I did a quick search of the forum and while there were some threads that had some of the same things I wanted to ask, some were really really old or didn't have all the things I wanted, so I'm starting a new one.

1. Close Quarter Fighting and Grapple.

Lets say you flubbed your first AoO and despite sticking that knife in the gut of that oncoming grappler, they still get you. Round 2 comes up:

Would it be fair to say your CQF feat lets you take another AoO on your grappler, if say you've got a light weapon or unarmed, that would apply to your new grappler check? (So you don't burn a standard action on sticking them again with your knife, instead saving that standard action for the 'get me out of here move'.)

Or does the only way to escape a grapple remain using that 1 standard action to make a (in this case) unmodified grapple check? Is CQF a one-shot feat that only works before a grapple takes affect? How do people play it.CQF is a one-shot thing.

The original AoO is not provoked by the grapple check but by the touch attack that preceded the grapple check. If the attacker established the grapple anyway despite the AoO, he doesn't have to go through the touch attack rigamarole again, thus no AoO.

(This assumes that the attacker does have Improved Grapple; if he does not then he won't get to make the touch attack in this case.)

2) Dragon Shamans. At a certain point in DS you become immune to your element type. So in a grapple, lets say you have CQF and decide the best way to deal with this pesky grappler is to drop your breath weapon...on yourself. If you're standing you basically 'spit down'. How would this play out for a grapple check? Would you apply the damage to your grapple check? Should a grappler get a reflex save vs your breath weapon if he's choosing to hang onto you? Would it be fair to say that if they want to avoid damage and take a save, succeed or fail, they voluntarily drop their grapple?Quite apart from the fact that you don't get an AoO (see above), the DS breath weapon requires a standard action to use (it's a (Su) ability that does not specify a different activation time) so you cannot combine the breath weapon with grapple checks to escape a grapple.

Should the DS use his breath weapon in an attempt to damage the grappler(s) enough to persuade them let go (not a bad plan if there are multiple enemies) the grappler(s) get a Reflex save, because nothing about grappling says that the grapplers are denied a Reflex save. If the grapplers take damage, they take damage. It will not force them to drop the grapple. If an effect would force them to drop the grapple if they tried a save and failed, it would explicitly say so, either in the rules for the effect or the grapple rules.
weasel0
12-21-07, 01:17 AM ..... because nothing about grappling says that the grapplers are denied a Reflex save. .....

If you were to pin the opponent, they would be denied the reflex save in said grapple. It'd be the same thing as the Lv20 rogue being pinned in the dragons mouth being denied the reflex save. There's simply no place to go. YMMV
Merestil Haye
12-21-07, 06:37 AM If you were to pin the opponent, they would be denied the reflex save in said grapple. It'd be the same thing as the Lv20 rogue being pinned in the dragons mouth being denied the reflex save. There's simply no place to go. YMMVFalse.

A helpless creature is allowed a reflex save, because the helpless condition does not say anything about denying a Reflex save. The rules on the Helpless condition impose a handicap on the creature's reflex save; they do not deny one. This is well established.

A pinned creature is considered helpless, so the rules for helpless creatures apply to it.

A creature pinned in a dragon's mouth retains their Reflex save, unless the dragon has the Snatch feat. In that case they are denied Reflex saves against the dragon's breath weapon, and nothing else, because the text of the Snatch feat explicitly denies a reflex save against the breath weapon.

If a condition says nothing about denying a benefit, it does not deny it. It's really that simple.
weasel0
12-21-07, 01:15 PM False.

Annnnnd .... you're right.... I knew I'd seen it, just thought it was "normal." A little less terse would be appreciated though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Voran 12-20-07, 04:46 AM	I did a quick search of the forum and while there were some threads that had some of the same things I wanted to ask, some were really really old or didn't have all the things I wanted, so I'm starting a new one. 1. Close Quarter Fighting and Grapple. Lets say you flubbed your first AoO and despite sticking that knife in the gut of that oncoming grappler, they still get you. Round 2 comes up: Would it be fair to say your CQF feat lets you take another AoO on your grappler, if say you've got a light weapon or unarmed, that would apply to your new grappler check? (So you don't burn a standard action on sticking them again with your knife, instead saving that standard action for the 'get me out of here move'.) Or does the only way to escape a grapple remain using that 1 standard action to make a (in this case) unmodified grapple check? Is CQF a one-shot feat that only works before a grapple takes affect? How do people play it. 2) Dragon Shamans. At a certain point in DS you become immune to your element type. So in a grapple, lets say you have CQF and decide the best way to deal with this pesky grappler is to drop your breath weapon...on yourself. If you're standing you basically 'spit down'. How would this play out for a grapple check? Would you apply the damage to your grapple check? Should a grappler get a reflex save vs your breath weapon if he's choosing to hang onto you? Would it be fair to say that if they want to avoid damage and take a save, succeed or fail, they voluntarily drop their grapple? 3)I'll have a couple more later, as I mull over this some more.
kuonji 12-20-07, 06:33 AM	I did a quick search of the forum and while there were some threads that had some of the same things I wanted to ask, some were really really old or didn't have all the things I wanted, so I'm starting a new one. 1. Close Quarter Fighting and Grapple. Lets say you flubbed your first AoO and despite sticking that knife in the gut of that oncoming grappler, they still get you. Round 2 comes up: Would it be fair to say your CQF feat lets you take another AoO on your grappler, if say you've got a light weapon or unarmed, that would apply to your new grappler check? (So you don't burn a standard action on sticking them again with your knife, instead saving that standard action for the 'get me out of here move'.) Or does the only way to escape a grapple remain using that 1 standard action to make a (in this case) unmodified grapple check? Is CQF a one-shot feat that only works before a grapple takes affect? How do people play it. I don't know what CQF does, so I can't offer you help there. However, attempting to escape a grapple is an attack action, not a standard action. So if you have multiple attacks, or if you somehow get an AoO on your opponent, you could try to break the grapple multiple times or with the AoO. The exception to this is using Escape Artist to break a grapple, which is a standard action. 2) Dragon Shamans. At a certain point in DS you become immune to your element type. So in a grapple, lets say you have CQF and decide the best way to deal with this pesky grappler is to drop your breath weapon...on yourself. If you're standing you basically 'spit down'. How would this play out for a grapple check? Would you apply the damage to your grapple check? Should a grappler get a reflex save vs your breath weapon if he's choosing to hang onto you? Would it be fair to say that if they want to avoid damage and take a save, succeed or fail, they voluntarily drop their grapple? 3)I'll have a couple more later, as I mull over this some more. I'd say you need to win an opposed grapple check to use your breath weapon, since you pretty much need to win an opposed grapple check to do anything in a grapple. As for the save, yes you get a save; that might sound weird but think of it this way: you and your opponent are locked up, you win a grapple check and use your breath weapon, he makes his save so perhaps he managed to get partly behind you to try and get you in a bear hug (or something like that, basically a grapple can involve a variety of maneuvering). Edit: On second thought, perhaps you don't need to make the grapple check since breath weapons don't require attack rolls, however, I still say you'd get the save as normal.
Merestil Haye 12-20-07, 07:52 AM	I did a quick search of the forum and while there were some threads that had some of the same things I wanted to ask, some were really really old or didn't have all the things I wanted, so I'm starting a new one. 1. Close Quarter Fighting and Grapple. Lets say you flubbed your first AoO and despite sticking that knife in the gut of that oncoming grappler, they still get you. Round 2 comes up: Would it be fair to say your CQF feat lets you take another AoO on your grappler, if say you've got a light weapon or unarmed, that would apply to your new grappler check? (So you don't burn a standard action on sticking them again with your knife, instead saving that standard action for the 'get me out of here move'.) Or does the only way to escape a grapple remain using that 1 standard action to make a (in this case) unmodified grapple check? Is CQF a one-shot feat that only works before a grapple takes affect? How do people play it.CQF is a one-shot thing. The original AoO is not provoked by the grapple check but by the touch attack that preceded the grapple check. If the attacker established the grapple anyway despite the AoO, he doesn't have to go through the touch attack rigamarole again, thus no AoO. (This assumes that the attacker does have Improved Grapple; if he does not then he won't get to make the touch attack in this case.) 2) Dragon Shamans. At a certain point in DS you become immune to your element type. So in a grapple, lets say you have CQF and decide the best way to deal with this pesky grappler is to drop your breath weapon...on yourself. If you're standing you basically 'spit down'. How would this play out for a grapple check? Would you apply the damage to your grapple check? Should a grappler get a reflex save vs your breath weapon if he's choosing to hang onto you? Would it be fair to say that if they want to avoid damage and take a save, succeed or fail, they voluntarily drop their grapple?Quite apart from the fact that you don't get an AoO (see above), the DS breath weapon requires a standard action to use (it's a (Su) ability that does not specify a different activation time) so you cannot combine the breath weapon with grapple checks to escape a grapple. Should the DS use his breath weapon in an attempt to damage the grappler(s) enough to persuade them let go (not a bad plan if there are multiple enemies) the grappler(s) get a Reflex save, because nothing about grappling says that the grapplers are denied a Reflex save. If the grapplers take damage, they take damage. It will not force them to drop the grapple. If an effect would force them to drop the grapple if they tried a save and failed, it would explicitly say so, either in the rules for the effect or the grapple rules.
weasel0 12-21-07, 01:17 AM	..... because nothing about grappling says that the grapplers are denied a Reflex save. ..... If you were to pin the opponent, they would be denied the reflex save in said grapple. It'd be the same thing as the Lv20 rogue being pinned in the dragons mouth being denied the reflex save. There's simply no place to go. YMMV
Merestil Haye 12-21-07, 06:37 AM	If you were to pin the opponent, they would be denied the reflex save in said grapple. It'd be the same thing as the Lv20 rogue being pinned in the dragons mouth being denied the reflex save. There's simply no place to go. YMMVFalse. A helpless creature is allowed a reflex save, because the helpless condition does not say anything about denying a Reflex save. The rules on the Helpless condition impose a handicap on the creature's reflex save; they do not deny one. This is well established. A pinned creature is considered helpless, so the rules for helpless creatures apply to it. A creature pinned in a dragon's mouth retains their Reflex save, unless the dragon has the Snatch feat. In that case they are denied Reflex saves against the dragon's breath weapon, and nothing else, because the text of the Snatch feat explicitly denies a reflex save against the breath weapon. If a condition says nothing about denying a benefit, it does not deny it. It's really that simple.
weasel0 12-21-07, 01:15 PM	False. Annnnnd .... you're right.... I knew I'd seen it, just thought it was "normal." A little less terse would be appreciated though.