A lions attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

A lions attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarkNick
08-30-07, 06:23 PM Just trying to get my head around something to do with a lion attacking a person.

Now they have improved grab which comes into effect when they bite.

On a full attack they can attack with 2 claws then a bite. If they hit with the bite they can do an opposed grapple check. If this succeeds this means they automatically do rake damage? As in 2 rakes?

My next question is because they have established a hold does this mean they are effectively in grapple?
How does it work on the next round - does it just mean the lion can keep raking automatically without a grapple check - or can they say make a bite, 2 claws and rake while in grapple?

One last question - can a lion make a bite as a primary attack, and use it's claws a secondary (particulalry if the lion was a shape changed druid...)?

oh, one more thing. How does the damage bonus work on secondary natural attacks? I noticed a lion does 1d4+5 with claws which makes sense as their strenth is +5, but only 1d8+2 with the bite and 1d4+2 with the rake. Does this mean they only get half strength bonus to damage on secondary attacks?
mvincent
08-30-07, 06:50 PM If they hit with the bite they can do an opposed grapple check. If this succeeds this means they automatically do rake damage? As in 2 rakes?They do not automatically hit, nor does the rake damage take effect that round. From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake):
"Rake
A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."

because they have established a hold does this mean they are effectively in grapple? Yes.

How does it work on the next round - does it just mean the lion can keep raking automatically without a grapple check - or can they say make a bite, 2 claws and rake while in grapple?It would get a claw (at -4) and two rake attacks (no penalty). From the 3.5 FAQ:
"How many attacks does a creature with multiple
natural weapons get while it’s grappling? How many
grapple checks can it make in a round?
Under normal circumstances, a creature can can attack with
only one of its natural weapons while grappling (and it takes a
–4 penalty on such attacks; PH 156). A grappling dire bear can
attack with either a claw or its bite.
The rake special attack gives the creature “two additional
claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe” (and
which don’t take the normal –4 penalty to such attacks; MM
314).
A creature that chooses to make grapple checks in place of
attacks—that is, to damage its opponent, escape from the
grapple, move, pin its opponent, or use its opponent’s
weapon—is allowed one grapple check for every attack that its
base attack bonus would allow (even if it doesn’t normally
make multiple attacks in this manner). These attacks deal
damage as an unarmed strike made by a creature of that size
(1d3 for Medium, 1d4 for Large, 1d6 for Huge, and so forth,
plus its Strength modifier).
A creature with BAB +0 to +5 may make one grapple
check in place of an attack, BAB +6 to +10 two, BAB +11 to
+15 three, and BAB +16 to +20 four. The dire bear, for
example, may make two grapple checks in place of attacks,
thanks to its base attack bonus of +9: one using its full BAB
and the second using its BAB –5."
DarkNick
08-30-07, 06:55 PM Cheers dude. That makes sense

So, this means that the round after establishing a hold the lion can then make one -4 attack with it's bite, and two rake attacks at full attack bonus.
mvincent
08-30-07, 07:17 PM the round after establishing a hold the lion can then make one -4 attack with it's biteYes.
Sildatorak
08-30-07, 10:30 PM Note that the lion should probably put the bite as the last attack in its routine because of that "one weapon in a grapple" rule.
Khadmus
09-02-07, 09:12 PM One last question - can a lion make a bite as a primary attack, and use it's claws a secondary (particulalry if the lion was a shape changed druid...)?

oh, one more thing. How does the damage bonus work on secondary natural attacks? I noticed a lion does 1d4+5 with claws which makes sense as their strenth is +5, but only 1d8+2 with the bite and 1d4+2 with the rake. Does this mean they only get half strength bonus to damage on secondary attacks?

The bite must stay as a secondary attack.
Secondary natural attacks only get half strength bonus.

I might get off my lazy butt and find the RAW that support it...later.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkNick 08-30-07, 06:23 PM	Just trying to get my head around something to do with a lion attacking a person. Now they have improved grab which comes into effect when they bite. On a full attack they can attack with 2 claws then a bite. If they hit with the bite they can do an opposed grapple check. If this succeeds this means they automatically do rake damage? As in 2 rakes? My next question is because they have established a hold does this mean they are effectively in grapple? How does it work on the next round - does it just mean the lion can keep raking automatically without a grapple check - or can they say make a bite, 2 claws and rake while in grapple? One last question - can a lion make a bite as a primary attack, and use it's claws a secondary (particulalry if the lion was a shape changed druid...)? oh, one more thing. How does the damage bonus work on secondary natural attacks? I noticed a lion does 1d4+5 with claws which makes sense as their strenth is +5, but only 1d8+2 with the bite and 1d4+2 with the rake. Does this mean they only get half strength bonus to damage on secondary attacks?
mvincent 08-30-07, 06:50 PM	If they hit with the bite they can do an opposed grapple check. If this succeeds this means they automatically do rake damage? As in 2 rakes?They do not automatically hit, nor does the rake damage take effect that round. From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake): "Rake A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn." because they have established a hold does this mean they are effectively in grapple? Yes. How does it work on the next round - does it just mean the lion can keep raking automatically without a grapple check - or can they say make a bite, 2 claws and rake while in grapple?It would get a claw (at -4) and two rake attacks (no penalty). From the 3.5 FAQ: "How many attacks does a creature with multiple natural weapons get while it’s grappling? How many grapple checks can it make in a round? Under normal circumstances, a creature can can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling (and it takes a –4 penalty on such attacks; PH 156). A grappling dire bear can attack with either a claw or its bite. The rake special attack gives the creature “two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe” (and which don’t take the normal –4 penalty to such attacks; MM 314). A creature that chooses to make grapple checks in place of attacks—that is, to damage its opponent, escape from the grapple, move, pin its opponent, or use its opponent’s weapon—is allowed one grapple check for every attack that its base attack bonus would allow (even if it doesn’t normally make multiple attacks in this manner). These attacks deal damage as an unarmed strike made by a creature of that size (1d3 for Medium, 1d4 for Large, 1d6 for Huge, and so forth, plus its Strength modifier). A creature with BAB +0 to +5 may make one grapple check in place of an attack, BAB +6 to +10 two, BAB +11 to +15 three, and BAB +16 to +20 four. The dire bear, for example, may make two grapple checks in place of attacks, thanks to its base attack bonus of +9: one using its full BAB and the second using its BAB –5."
DarkNick 08-30-07, 06:55 PM	Cheers dude. That makes sense So, this means that the round after establishing a hold the lion can then make one -4 attack with it's bite, and two rake attacks at full attack bonus.
mvincent 08-30-07, 07:17 PM	the round after establishing a hold the lion can then make one -4 attack with it's biteYes.
Sildatorak 08-30-07, 10:30 PM	Note that the lion should probably put the bite as the last attack in its routine because of that "one weapon in a grapple" rule.
Khadmus 09-02-07, 09:12 PM	One last question - can a lion make a bite as a primary attack, and use it's claws a secondary (particulalry if the lion was a shape changed druid...)? oh, one more thing. How does the damage bonus work on secondary natural attacks? I noticed a lion does 1d4+5 with claws which makes sense as their strenth is +5, but only 1d8+2 with the bite and 1d4+2 with the rake. Does this mean they only get half strength bonus to damage on secondary attacks? The bite must stay as a secondary attack. Secondary natural attacks only get half strength bonus. I might get off my lazy butt and find the RAW that support it...later.