Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pukunui 08-01-07, 08:30 PM	**SPOILER WARNING!! IF YOU'RE A PLAYER IN MY CAMPAIGN, STOP READING NOW!** Hi all, I'm just wondering whether I should be having acid attacks (e.g. from a black or green dragon's breath weapon) affect items worn and/or carried by characters. I know it's just a game and that the armor rules especially are quite abstract and simplified, but I can't help but feel like if a warrior is encased in full plate and he gets hit with a dragon's acidic breath weapon and takes damage, then surely his armor should be taking damage too, otherwise how would the character be taking damage? The armor should be getting lots of holes in it, potentially dissolving to the point that it's no longer protecting the character at all. Are there already rules for this (aside from the hardness and hit points of objects in the PHB)? Am I being too picky? Thoughts? Cheers, Jonny
PenderGrass 08-01-07, 08:44 PM	See your PHB under Magic in the Saving Throw section (or the SRD online)... Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deal. If an item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage. Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks Order1 Item 1st Shield 2nd Armor 3rd Magic helmet, hat, or headband 4th Item in hand (including weapon, wand, or the like) 5th Magic cloak 6th Stowed or sheathed weapon 7th Magic bracers 8th Magic clothing 9th Magic jewelry (including rings) 10th Anything else 1 In order of most likely to least likely to be affected. :dragon: ****
pukunui 08-01-07, 09:42 PM	So stuff like armor is only affected if the PC rolls a natural 1? How am I supposed to describe an acid attack on a guy covered in metal armor without saying that the acid burned holes in the armor (which you would think would make it less effective ...)? DM: "The dragon breathes acid on you. Somehow, the armor gets through your full plate without damaging it ... but it burns your skin nonetheless and you take 12 points of acid damage." Player: "Ooooook." :rolleyes: The reason I'm asking, btw, is because we're about to have an encounter with a black dragon, and one of the PCs is a paladin with masterwork full plate (so it's not magical).
Salla 08-01-07, 10:10 PM	First, HP aren't necessarily physical damage in the case of PCs. You could describe it as the Paladin exerting effort to avoid the acid spray, or his Holy Aura(tm) repelling it. Second, it could damage it without destroying it; warping the outer surface, perhaps a few small holes here and there, without simply eating away at it completely.
Mock26 08-01-07, 10:26 PM	H3SO4 is the chemical formula for the acid produced by a black dragon. One of the unique features of this type of acid is that it only affects living matter. :D
Kouk 08-02-07, 03:22 AM	Destroying player equipment for pretty much no reason is generally against the principles of fun-ness. Some effects destroy equipment, but most don't. If you want to toast someone's gear, use appropriate monsters like certain slimes and fiery creatures and Rust Monsters. The simplest way to explain why certain acids affect gear and certain acids don't, is to just say they are different kinds of acid. If the player says, "But how can it even get to my skin, I'm wearing FULL PLATE!" You can just say, "Well, it runs between the gaps in the armor plates, too bad."
pukunui 08-02-07, 03:25 AM	First, HP aren't necessarily physical damage in the case of PCs. You could describe it as the Paladin exerting effort to avoid the acid spray, or his Holy Aura(tm) repelling it. Second, it could damage it without destroying it; warping the outer surface, perhaps a few small holes here and there, without simply eating away at it completely.Good points. Thanks. H3SO4 is the chemical formula for the acid produced by a black dragon. One of the unique features of this type of acid is that it only affects living matter. :DHow do you know that? Does it actually say somewhere in a WotC book that a black dragon breathes sulfuric acid? EDIT: I realize that d&d art isn't always accurate, but this here is the image associated with the encounter in question in Red Hand of Doom: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rhod_gallery/95662.jpg
PenderGrass 08-02-07, 04:51 AM	I think Mock26 was joking around somewhat. pukunui, are you looking for something in RAW to allow you to have the more cinematic effect you want, or are you wanting some advice on how to house rule it? :dragon: ****
pukunui 08-02-07, 04:59 AM	pukunui, are you looking for something in RAW to allow you to have the more cinematic effect you want, or are you wanting some advice on how to house rule it?The former. I'm not trying to make it less fun for the players. Just trying to get my head around it ... that's all. If rolling a natural 1 is the only thing in RAW, so be it. I can live with that.
Salla 08-02-07, 12:27 PM	EDIT: I realize that d&d art isn't always accurate, but this here is the image associated with the encounter in question in Red Hand of Doom: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rhod_gallery/95662.jpg He obviously rolled a 1. :)
PenderGrass 08-02-07, 01:45 PM	The former. I'm not trying to make it less fun for the players. Just trying to get my head around it ... that's all. If rolling a natural 1 is the only thing in RAW, so be it. I can live with that. In that case, I would go with visual descriptions that do not actually have any real game mechanic consequences. Example Of Normal Saving Throw Failure: "The acid breath sprays forth, covering you in a flesh-burning wash that seeps through the seams of your armor. Although it does no real damage to your equipment, your armor and weapons are severely scorched and scarred. You realize, if the acid hits you any more square, it will surely start to destroy your equipment." You can kinda go from there. Just remember, you are the DM and if you want the armor to be scorched (heck, even burn holes in it), then go ahead. So long as you don't remove the actual AC bonus or functionality of the armor, you are totally fine. Beyond people commenting on your player's paladin's armor, there really is no actual consequence (outside possible role-playing). Heck, he may even want to continue to wear the "damaged" armor as a badge of honor. I say, go ahead and trash that armor and weapon in the most cinematic way possible. Otherwise, what is the point of fighting an acid-breathing dragon? :dragon: ****
Mock26 08-02-07, 02:01 PM	How do you know that? Does it actually say somewhere in a WotC book that a black dragon breathes sulfuric acid? Please note two things about my post. The first is that the formula for sulphuric acid is H2SO4 and not H3SO4. Second, I added in a smiley face. In fact, I don't even know if H3SO4 is an actual compound in the real world. But, it could be one in a fantasy world. On a serious note, though, you could simply alter the rules so that all equipment had to make a saving throw even if the player didn't roll a 1 on their save. This is definitely make the game a lot more hardcore and it might even seriously upset some of your players. But, it will definitely make the game more realistic, and if you and your players like gritty, deadly, realism, that is one way to go. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john. PS My other post was a joke!
PenderGrass 08-02-07, 02:05 PM	Please note two things about my post. The first is that the formula for sulphuric acid is H2SO4 and not H3SO4. Second, I added in a smiley face. In fact, I don't even know if H3SO4 is an actual compound in the real world. But, it could be one in a fantasy world. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john. PS My other post was a joke! pukunui: I sense motive. *clatter* DM: Hmmm. :dragon: ****
weasel0 08-02-07, 02:48 PM	Johnny was a scientist But Jonny is no more, For what he thought was H2O, Was H2SO4. I loved my HS science teacher.
pukunui 08-02-07, 04:05 PM	He obviously rolled a 1. :)LOL. In that case, I would go with visual descriptions that do not actually have any real game mechanic consequences. Example Of Normal Saving Throw Failure: "The acid breath sprays forth, covering you in a flesh-burning wash that seeps through the seams of your armor. Although it does no real damage to your equipment, your armor and weapons are severely scorched and scarred. You realize, if the acid hits you any more square, it will surely start to destroy your equipment." You can kinda go from there. Just remember, you are the DM and if you want the armor to be scorched (heck, even burn holes in it), then go ahead. So long as you don't remove the actual AC bonus or functionality of the armor, you are totally fine. Beyond people commenting on your player's paladin's armor, there really is no actual consequence (outside possible role-playing). Heck, he may even want to continue to wear the "damaged" armor as a badge of honor. I say, go ahead and trash that armor and weapon in the most cinematic way possible. Otherwise, what is the point of fighting an acid-breathing dragon? :dragon: ****Thanks. That's what I was thinking of doing ... but it got me thinking that if I was going to be describing the acid putting holes in the armor, then surely, realistically, it should impact on the effectiveness of said armor (more holes means more places that enemies can poke pointy things through to get at your soft bits ...) But then, as I acknowledged in my originaly post, I understand that this is a game, and therefore not very realistic - especially where the rules about armor are concerned. :rolleyes: Besides, I suppose I should really be consistent ... I'm pretty sure the paladin has already been chomped on by a number of things with very big teeth, such as a six-headed hydra, and I didn't have those holes impact on the effectiveness of his full plate. Maybe I can just say that the acid gets through to his flesh via those holes ... ha ha. Please note two things about my post. The first is that the formula for sulphuric acid is H2SO4 and not H3SO4. Second, I added in a smiley face. In fact, I don't even know if H3SO4 is an actual compound in the real world. But, it could be one in a fantasy world.LOL. Whoops. My brain just automatically saw the formula for sulfuric acid. Sigh ... pukunui: I sense motive. *clatter* DM: Hmmm.Too true. Too true. Johnny was a scientist But Jonny is no more, For what he thought was H2O, Was H2SO4.LOL. I love that little ditty. I loved my high school science teacher, too. I even worked as his lab assistant during my first year of college. That was fun. I got to clean all the lab equipment with hydrochloric acid and I got to measure out all the little powders and things and do all sorts of fun stuff. Heh heh heh.
Mock26 08-02-07, 05:14 PM	Johnny was a scientist But Jonny is no more, For what he thought was H2O, Was H2SO4. I loved my HS science teacher. That is going on a t-shirt!
pukunui 08-02-07, 05:40 PM	That is going on a t-shirt! Had you not ever heard that one before? My HS science teacher taught us that one, too, but I think he used a different name. Timmy maybe?
weasel0 08-02-07, 05:44 PM	Who remembers the Dinosaurs live action show? Here Timmy. Hold this while I pour in this chemical.... Uh-oh.. Let me stand behind this blast sheild.... *BLAM*.. WE NEED A NEW TIMMY!" PS- Glad I could entertain. :D
pukunui 08-02-07, 05:58 PM	Who remembers the Dinosaurs live action show? Here Timmy. Hold this while I pour in this chemical.... Uh-oh.. Let me stand behind this blast sheild.... *BLAM*.. WE NEED A NEW TIMMY!" PS- Glad I could entertain. :D Ooo, ooo! I do! That was a great show. Kind of "if the Simpsons were dinosaurs" ... lol. It didn't do so well after they did the whole "dinosaurs at war in the trenches" thing.
eamon 08-02-07, 06:17 PM	You could also image that the acid is rather weak and that it does corrode the armor somewhat, but that it's just much more painful on bare skin.
pukunui 08-02-07, 06:21 PM	You could also image that the acid is rather weak and that it does corrode the armor somewhat, but that it's just much more painful on bare skin. Yeah, I might do something like that.
Anathema 08-02-07, 07:18 PM	I've always kinda presumed that armor destruction was part of the HP abstraction. I just avoid describing armor damage as a certain percentage of their armor. "Full Plate sizzling and smoking as parts of it dissolve and minute pits form on the surface" is the kind of description I'd use here. Magical armor I say repairs itself of any minor damage like this, and mundane armor's damage is minor enough I say it would be fixed by the 'mending' spell. That's just how I do it anyway. It's not abnormal to say "You get blasted with acid for 48 damage", but if you want to make logical sense of the abstraction then you're going to have to bend logic in other places to compensate.
pukunui 08-02-07, 07:32 PM	... but if you want to make logical sense of the abstraction then you're going to have to bend logic in other places to compensate.Yeah, I kind of figured that. Sigh ... :rolleyes: I was just having trouble getting my head around a guy encased in metal somehow getting hurt by acid. Having the acid not really affect the metal but seeping through to burn his skin will have to do ... :P ;)
Anathema 08-02-07, 07:34 PM	In the world we live in there are two questions considered by all mankind as ultimately timeless as they are ultimately unanswerable; "Why are we here?" and "What exactly do HP represent?". Good luck with your game ;)
Mock26 08-02-07, 07:41 PM	Yeah, I kind of figured that. Sigh ... :rolleyes: I was just having trouble getting my head around a guy encased in metal somehow getting hurt by acid. Having the acid not really affect the metal but seeping through to burn his skin will have to do ... :P ;) Like I said in an above quote, make it realistic. If your players new that their characters could lose their armor quite easily in certain encounters, they would definitely think twice about going into such encounters. After all, dragons are supposed to be the most powerful creatures in the land and should be difficult and deadly encounters. So, make them so. And if you don't want to go that route, you could simply apply the idea that saving throws have just as much to do with luck as they do with the physical and mental attributes of the characters. Personally, I take the realistic approach. When my group went up against a red dragon, they lost a lot of gear to the dragon's breath weapon. And, most of them died before the rest beat a hasty retreat. They are still recovering from that adventure, and they still actively talk about what they will be doing differently the next time they go after that dragon. But, this style of play isn't for everyone.
PenderGrass 08-02-07, 07:48 PM	When my group went up against a red dragon, they lost a lot of gear to the dragon's breath weapon. And, most of them died before the rest beat a hasty retreat. They are still recovering from that adventure, and they still actively talk about what they will be doing differently the next time they go after that dragon. I remember in THE TOWERING INFERNO that Dr. Evil's #2 used a damp bath towel to escape all that fire. Come to think of it, I believe he still burned to death. Never mind. Damp towels don't work too well. :dragon: ****
Morwen 08-02-07, 07:52 PM	If rolling a natural 1 is the only thing in RAW, so be it. I can live with that. It is, for most creatures. However, some creatures have acid attacks that specifically affect armor and weapons, such as Black Puddings (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#blackPudding).
pukunui 08-02-07, 07:56 PM	LOL. Good question ... I wanted to adopt the new Star Wars fatigue system to make fights more realistic (instead of the "You can function at 100% until all of a sudden you can't function at all" thing ...) but my players weren't keen on it. Like I said in an above quote, make it realistic. If your players new that their characters could lose their armor quite easily in certain encounters, they would definitely think twice about going into such encounters. After all, dragons are supposed to be the most powerful creatures in the land and should be difficult and deadly encounters. So, make them so.This is a cool idea ... although I was actually thinking that maybe armor would only be affected by older, more powerful dragons. The one they're going to be going up against soon is only Juvenile. I can see his acidic spittle not doing much to their armor. It's not potent enough yet. But if they were to go up against an old black dragon, then sure ... It breathes on them and their clothes dissolve all around them. I think one of the most potent scenes in the Dragonlance Chronicles is when the black dragon bursts up out of the old well and spits her acid all over Riverwind, reducing him to a mass of melted flesh and quivering organs. Freaky! And if you don't want to go that route, you could simply apply the idea that saving throws have just as much to do with luck as they do with the physical and mental attributes of the characters.Yeah, that's something I have trouble getting my head around too. How could a rogue possibly take no damage at all when exposed to a fireball at point blank range. Wouldn't the whole space all around him be full of fire? Where could he go to avoid it? But whatever ... I guess those are the sorts of things that you're not supposed to think about too much or else you start going :looloo: What I might do is ask my players for their opinion. They'll probably say "No way! Don't have it affect our stuff!" but it's better to ask than just impose stuff on them. After all, they're supposed to be having fun too, right? ;) Come to think of it, I believe he still burned to death. Never mind. Damp towels don't work too well.LOL
pukunui 08-02-07, 07:57 PM	It is, for most creatures. However, some creatures have acid attacks that specifically affect armor and weapons, such as Black Puddings (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#blackPudding). True. Thanks.
Mock26 08-02-07, 07:58 PM	I remember in THE TOWERING INFERNO that Dr. Evil's #2 used a damp bath towel to escape all that fire. Come to think of it, I believe he still burned to death. Never mind. Damp towels don't work too well. :dragon: **** Actually, if I remember correctly, he didn't burn to death. He fell out of the window. So, while he was on fire, he died from sudden stopping syndrome. (Or was that his girlfriendl who fell out of the winow? I don't remember exactly.) And, I disagree. Damp towels work very well. They just work very well for very short periods of time.
PenderGrass 08-02-07, 08:11 PM	Actually, if I remember correctly, he didn't burn to death. He fell out of the window. So, while he was on fire, he died from sudden stopping syndrome. (Or was that his girlfriendl who fell out of the winow? I don't remember exactly.) And, I disagree. Damp towels work very well. They just work very well for very short periods of time. I believe he died from being a cheating horny bastard. I think he was going to leave the hotel room a little earlier and the girlfriend asked him to stay and have more nookie. He opted to do so. When they got done with their secret nookie, they realized their predicament. If only he had used the damp towel before his cheating nookie he may have lived. See kids? See what happens when you cheat on your wife? You run into a blazing room with a damp towel on your head, catch fire, tumble around in agony for a few slow-mo moments, then crash through a window and die in a cheating, burning, glorious damp-towelled head splat. :dragon: ****
Mock26 08-02-07, 08:31 PM	I believe he died from being a cheating horny bastard. I think he was going to leave the hotel room a little earlier and the girlfriend asked him to stay and have more nookie. He opted to do so. When they got done with their secret nookie, they realized their predicament. If only he had used the damp towel before his cheating nookie he may have lived. See kids? See what happens when you cheat on your wife? You run into a blazing room with a damp towel on your head, catch fire, tumble around in agony for a few slow-mo moments, then crash through a window and die in a cheating, burning, glorious damp-towelled head splat. :dragon: **** Actually, I did some looking around and he didn't die of Sudden Stop Syndrome. That was the chick. He did crash through a glass balcony in the office, but he only fell about 8' to the floor below. But, that soaking wet towel prevented him from catching fire for at least 3 or 5 seconds!
PenderGrass 08-02-07, 08:42 PM	Actually, I did some looking around and he didn't die of Sudden Stop Syndrome. That was the chick. He did crash through a glass balcony in the office, but he only fell about 8' to the floor below. But, that soaking wet towel prevented him from catching fire for at least 3 or 5 seconds! I hope that unfaithful nookie was worth it. :dragon: ****
pukunui 08-02-07, 08:45 PM	I hope that unfaithful nookie was worth it. :dragon: **** LOL. Talk about a de-railed thread. But it's cool - I think I'm more or less finished with this topic anyway. And for the record, I have no idea what you guys are talking about. :P ;)
Mock26 08-02-07, 08:56 PM	I hope that unfaithful nookie was worth it. :dragon: **** You can see some screenshots over at this site: http://www.thetoweringinferno.info/ Just click on the Screenshots link. Of course, now you have me second guessing myself. Was she really his mistress? Or was he really single and they were just dating? Now I have to go pull out my DVD later tonight and watch the movie.
PenderGrass 08-02-07, 09:01 PM	Of course, now you have me second guessing myself. Was she really his mistress? Or was he really single and they were just dating? Now I have to go pull out my DVD later tonight and watch the movie. He was cheating on his wife. But, to get kind of back on subject, it would be funny as hell to see a group of heroic adventurers charge into a red dragon's lair with damp towels draped on their heads and then arguing with the DM that it should allow a +4 to save vs. fiery dragon breath. EDIT - Crud, I got Vaughn and Wagner mixed-up for a second there. :dragon: ****
Mock26 08-02-07, 09:04 PM	LOL. Talk about a de-railed thread. But it's cool - I think I'm more or less finished with this topic anyway. And for the record, I have no idea what you guys are talking about. :P ;) You've never seen the movie The Towering Inferno?!?!?! It is one of the all time classic "Disaster Flicks" from the 1970's! I highly recommend the movie to anyone who is a fan of cinema.
pukunui 08-02-07, 09:35 PM	You've never seen the movie The Towering Inferno?!?!?! It is one of the all time classic "Disaster Flicks" from the 1970's! I highly recommend the movie to anyone who is a fan of cinema. Nope. I suppose that's sad. But I don't know. Because I've never even heard of it before. ;)
Mock26 08-02-07, 09:41 PM	Nope. I suppose that's sad. But I don't know. Because I've never even heard of it before. ;) Well, if you like films and aren't "turned off" by older films, rent it some time and check it out. If I remember correctly, it was nominated for best film of 1975 (or was it 1976?) and actually one a couple of oscars (though not for best film).
Mock26 08-02-07, 09:42 PM	EDIT - Crud, I got Vaughn and Wagner mixed-up for a second there. :dragon: **** Woot! I win! Hurray for me! Hurray for meaningless movie knowledge! Woot! :D
pukunui 08-02-07, 09:43 PM	Well, if you like films and aren't "turned off" by older films, rent it some time and check it out. If I remember correctly, it was nominated for best film of 1975 (or was it 1976?) and actually one a couple of oscars (though not for best film). I do like films. I'm not turned off by older films. It's hard to find older films here in New Zealand though ... the video stores tend to just have the new releases. :P
Mock26 08-02-07, 09:46 PM	I do like films. I'm not turned off by older films. It's hard to find older films here in New Zealand though ... the video stores tend to just have the new releases. :P Oh, you're in New Zealand? Never mind then. The film would be upside down on the screen and that could be awkward to watch. Seriously, though, it is considered a "classic" film here in the States so you might be able to find it. As I said, I highly recommend it.
PenderGrass 08-03-07, 12:57 AM	Woot! I win! Hurray for me! Hurray for meaningless movie knowledge! Woot! :D Wagner still is involved with his secretary and his infidelity is what kills him (well, that and the script). You can verify by looking at IMDB. :P /chuckle :dragon: ****
Mock26 08-03-07, 01:31 AM	Wagner still is involved with his secretary and his infidelity is what kills him (well, that and the script). You can verify by looking at IMDB. :P /chuckle :dragon: **** I never questioned that she was his secretary. I was merely questioning whether or not he was married. Part of me thinks that maybe he wasn't, that he was dating his secretary. And, I'm not sure, but I think there is a scene where they talk about getting married. Either way, there are two good messages. Cheat on your wife and get burned alive. Dip into the office pool and get burned alive. Both are lessons to live by!
pukunui 08-03-07, 03:34 AM	Oh, you're in New Zealand?Yeah I know. What was I thinking leaving the City of Brotherly Love and moving down here to the City of Sails? I mean, I only traded having to drive for two and a half hours through the Armpit of America only to have to pay to sit on a thin strip of yellow sand for free access to some of the most gorgeous beaches in the world, most of them less than an hour away. :rolleyes: ;) But I do miss the local video store back in PA. They had a big selection of old movies. Never mind then. The film would be upside down on the screen and that could be awkward to watch.:pbbbtt:
PenderGrass 08-03-07, 12:26 PM	I never questioned that she was his secretary. I was merely questioning whether or not he was married. Part of me thinks that maybe he wasn't, that he was dating his secretary. And, I'm not sure, but I think there is a scene where they talk about getting married. Either way, there are two good messages. Cheat on your wife and get burned alive. Dip into the office pool and get burned alive. Both are lessons to live by! The correlation between infidelity and being burned in agonizing slow motion (i.e., the classic version of Hell) are just too much to not be correct. Premarital sex is so ho-hum. On the subject of gaming in New Zealand, pukunui, are there lots of gamers there? :dragon: ****
pukunui 08-03-07, 05:52 PM	On the subject of gaming in New Zealand, pukunui, are there lots of gamers there?Surprisingly, yes. There are only a few stores in Auckland that sell d&d books and they're all outrageously overpriced, though. I always get my stuff off amazon. Even with the shipping, it's still significantly cheaper.