Adjudicating invisibility [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adjudicating invisibility [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tichrimo
03-25-07, 07:17 PM RAW are pretty clear on one aspect -- if you can tell what square the invisibile creature is in, you can attack it with 50% miss chance.

The question is, how do you determine what square an invisible creature is in? I have four options; two I buy and two I need help with...

Hide vs. spot -- the invisible guy gets bonuses to his hide check (+40 if stationary, +20 if moving)... But if the spotter wins the opposed check, he still takes the 50% miss chance?
Listen vs. move silently -- again, harder to move silently while moving, but this one I buy still taking a 50% miss chance.
Pick a square and swing -- yeah, 50% miss chance makes sense, if the target is even in the square I picked.
Get attacked by the (improved) invisible guy -- do I know which square he attacked from? Otherwise, it becomes 'pick a square and swing', as above.

What say you all?
weasel0
03-25-07, 11:57 PM 1. Say you see some pebbles move in the square or you see a quick warp of space out of the corner of your eye. It isn't enough to "see" him, but enough to know "he's about here."
2. Completly valid.
3. Completly valid.
4. I would say yes. If you don't like that, rule is as sniping (-20 to hide check until next turn) vs. the person attacked.
5. Tracking. Rangers can use tracking(anyone for DC10 or lower) under Survival very well here. Any pets/familiars with scent will do well with this skill as well.
6. Any and every combination of the above. Skill checks are generically free actions unless the DM rules otherwise(as per RAW-I just looked it up last night in game casue we were trying to spot/attack an invis vampire)
JustinA
03-26-07, 12:35 AM Hide vs. spot -- the invisible guy gets bonuses to his hide check (+40 if stationary, +20 if moving)... But if the spotter wins the opposed check, he still takes the 50% miss chance?

Yes. The check allows you to pinpoint their location, but they are still concealed.

Listen vs. move silently -- again, harder to move silently while moving, but this one I buy still taking a 50% miss chance.

Ditto.

Pick a square and swing -- yeah, 50% miss chance makes sense, if the target is even in the square I picked.

Yup.

Get attacked by the (improved) invisible guy -- do I know which square he attacked from? Otherwise, it becomes 'pick a square and swing', as above.

You should use the sniping rules, even though those rules normally only apply to ranged attacks. From the SRD: "Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot."

The penalty for sniping exactly cancels out the bonus for being invisible, so it becomes a straight Hide vs. Spot check to figure out which square the attack came from.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net
jadehawk
03-26-07, 01:37 PM Note that just being invisible does not grant you a hide check. To hide while invisible you need a second mode of cover or concealment (like in shadows, behind a half wall, or with displacement for instance). If you do have a second source of hiding you may roll a hide check at +20 while moving or +40 while not.

If you are invisible but out in the open characters may roll a spot check against DC 20 to notice you and DC 40 to pinpoint your location. This check can only be made within 30 ft. However, you can notice a character's position otherwise by a listen check (though I think you need a feat to actually pinpoint or maybe beat the check by 10 or more), or if the character is giving away their position (like moving around in water or making tracks in snow).

Btw, I am getting most of this hide errata from the WotC Online Article Series: There, Not There
ryryguy
03-26-07, 01:44 PM This is all well covered by the SRD section on the invisibility ability:

SRD on invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility)

A couple of notable things from there:

In a Hide vs. Spot check, in addition to the bonuses you've already noted, there's an additional +20 DC to pinpoint the invisible creature's square:

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

There's a similar modifier for pinpointing an invisible creature using a listen check:

A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

There's another way to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature that you didn't list:

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.)

(Of course, since this requires an attack action, it's not likely that the "groper" will be able to attack immediately after successfully pinpointing the target, but he can at least call out the location to a comrade.)

Finally, there's no need to apply the sniping rule when you are attacked by an invisible creature:

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

Again, read that whole section of the SRD, it covers all your questions, and more.
Tichrimo
03-26-07, 08:06 PM Of all the references I checked, never considered the SRD.

<facepalm>

Thanks...
FriendoftheDork
03-28-07, 07:46 AM Note that just being invisible does not grant you a hide check. To hide while invisible you need a second mode of cover or concealment (like in shadows, behind a half wall, or with displacement for instance). If you do have a second source of hiding you may roll a hide check at +20 while moving or +40 while not.

If you are invisible but out in the open characters may roll a spot check against DC 20 to notice you and DC 40 to pinpoint your location. This check can only be made within 30 ft. However, you can notice a character's position otherwise by a listen check (though I think you need a feat to actually pinpoint or maybe beat the check by 10 or more), or if the character is giving away their position (like moving around in water or making tracks in snow).

Btw, I am getting most of this hide errata from the WotC Online Article Series: There, Not There

can anyone else confirm this? I've been giving hide checks to PCs with invisibility, when the (total) concealment from the invis was the only one. Have I been doing wrong?

And the "practically impossible" DC 40 pinpoint moving invsivble creature is quite possible for some characters and some monsters like fiends.

While +20 to pinpoint by listen can actually be pretty easy, depending on how silent the invis creature is. A man in full plate and heavy steel shield not moving silently is DC -3, or total DC 17 to pinpoint... not a major feat.

A battle is DC -5, thus it would only be DC 15 (+ range) to hear and pinpoint an invisible creature fighting more than 5' away from you vs someone else.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tichrimo 03-25-07, 07:17 PM	RAW are pretty clear on one aspect -- if you can tell what square the invisibile creature is in, you can attack it with 50% miss chance. The question is, how do you determine what square an invisible creature is in? I have four options; two I buy and two I need help with... Hide vs. spot -- the invisible guy gets bonuses to his hide check (+40 if stationary, +20 if moving)... But if the spotter wins the opposed check, he still takes the 50% miss chance? Listen vs. move silently -- again, harder to move silently while moving, but this one I buy still taking a 50% miss chance. Pick a square and swing -- yeah, 50% miss chance makes sense, if the target is even in the square I picked. Get attacked by the (improved) invisible guy -- do I know which square he attacked from? Otherwise, it becomes 'pick a square and swing', as above. What say you all?
weasel0 03-25-07, 11:57 PM	1. Say you see some pebbles move in the square or you see a quick warp of space out of the corner of your eye. It isn't enough to "see" him, but enough to know "he's about here." 2. Completly valid. 3. Completly valid. 4. I would say yes. If you don't like that, rule is as sniping (-20 to hide check until next turn) vs. the person attacked. 5. Tracking. Rangers can use tracking(anyone for DC10 or lower) under Survival very well here. Any pets/familiars with scent will do well with this skill as well. 6. Any and every combination of the above. Skill checks are generically free actions unless the DM rules otherwise(as per RAW-I just looked it up last night in game casue we were trying to spot/attack an invis vampire)
JustinA 03-26-07, 12:35 AM	Hide vs. spot -- the invisible guy gets bonuses to his hide check (+40 if stationary, +20 if moving)... But if the spotter wins the opposed check, he still takes the 50% miss chance? Yes. The check allows you to pinpoint their location, but they are still concealed. Listen vs. move silently -- again, harder to move silently while moving, but this one I buy still taking a 50% miss chance. Ditto. Pick a square and swing -- yeah, 50% miss chance makes sense, if the target is even in the square I picked. Yup. Get attacked by the (improved) invisible guy -- do I know which square he attacked from? Otherwise, it becomes 'pick a square and swing', as above. You should use the sniping rules, even though those rules normally only apply to ranged attacks. From the SRD: "Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot." The penalty for sniping exactly cancels out the bonus for being invisible, so it becomes a straight Hide vs. Spot check to figure out which square the attack came from. Justin Alexander http://www.thealexandrian.net
jadehawk 03-26-07, 01:37 PM	Note that just being invisible does not grant you a hide check. To hide while invisible you need a second mode of cover or concealment (like in shadows, behind a half wall, or with displacement for instance). If you do have a second source of hiding you may roll a hide check at +20 while moving or +40 while not. If you are invisible but out in the open characters may roll a spot check against DC 20 to notice you and DC 40 to pinpoint your location. This check can only be made within 30 ft. However, you can notice a character's position otherwise by a listen check (though I think you need a feat to actually pinpoint or maybe beat the check by 10 or more), or if the character is giving away their position (like moving around in water or making tracks in snow). Btw, I am getting most of this hide errata from the WotC Online Article Series: There, Not There
ryryguy 03-26-07, 01:44 PM	This is all well covered by the SRD section on the invisibility ability: SRD on invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) A couple of notable things from there: In a Hide vs. Spot check, in addition to the bonuses you've already noted, there's an additional +20 DC to pinpoint the invisible creature's square: A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There's a similar modifier for pinpointing an invisible creature using a listen check: A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location. There's another way to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature that you didn't list: A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.) (Of course, since this requires an attack action, it's not likely that the "groper" will be able to attack immediately after successfully pinpointing the target, but he can at least call out the location to a comrade.) Finally, there's no need to apply the sniping rule when you are attacked by an invisible creature: If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location. Again, read that whole section of the SRD, it covers all your questions, and more.
Tichrimo 03-26-07, 08:06 PM	Of all the references I checked, never considered the SRD. <facepalm> Thanks...
FriendoftheDork 03-28-07, 07:46 AM	Note that just being invisible does not grant you a hide check. To hide while invisible you need a second mode of cover or concealment (like in shadows, behind a half wall, or with displacement for instance). If you do have a second source of hiding you may roll a hide check at +20 while moving or +40 while not. If you are invisible but out in the open characters may roll a spot check against DC 20 to notice you and DC 40 to pinpoint your location. This check can only be made within 30 ft. However, you can notice a character's position otherwise by a listen check (though I think you need a feat to actually pinpoint or maybe beat the check by 10 or more), or if the character is giving away their position (like moving around in water or making tracks in snow). Btw, I am getting most of this hide errata from the WotC Online Article Series: There, Not There can anyone else confirm this? I've been giving hide checks to PCs with invisibility, when the (total) concealment from the invis was the only one. Have I been doing wrong? And the "practically impossible" DC 40 pinpoint moving invsivble creature is quite possible for some characters and some monsters like fiends. While +20 to pinpoint by listen can actually be pretty easy, depending on how silent the invis creature is. A man in full plate and heavy steel shield not moving silently is DC -3, or total DC 17 to pinpoint... not a major feat. A battle is DC -5, thus it would only be DC 15 (+ range) to hear and pinpoint an invisible creature fighting more than 5' away from you vs someone else.