Afflicted Lycanthropy Question. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Afflicted Lycanthropy Question. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shuuya
08-21-07, 08:39 AM I'm currently running a campaign and one of the characters has, unknowingly, contracted lycanthropy. So unless he cures himself in the next 3 days it'll become harder for him to remove. Obviously I can't ask the players about the problem but I'm puzzled from a rules perspective of how to treat this.
The MM says to treat Afflicted Lycanthropes as having LA +2 so I can't just say "Bang you're now a lycanthrope" because the player would gain 2 levels essentially. Additionally taking two of his class levels to replace them with the lycanthrope template seems quite cheap and the least desirable balancing course of action.
Is there a way of splitting up the lycanthrope template into two levels so that the character can gain the full benefit in a balancing way, so as he advances he takes two levels in "lycanthrope?" I think this would be the best course of action but I'm still unsure of how to do it, but I'll also have to discuss it with the player once the incubation period is over and if he doesn't guess he has a disease and tries to remove it. If it helps he's only a 7th level cleric at the moment.
Can anyone help?
eamon
08-21-07, 11:34 AM I guess the simplest would be to halt his level progression until he reaches sufficient XP to level at his new progression - so right now he gains a temporary advantage.

However, are you remembering to add the animals HD as well? For example, assuming he's been bitten by a werewolf, then not only does he "officially" have a LA +2 and 7 cleric levels, he also has 2 animal HD! (Look at the sample lycanthropes to see how this impacts things like hitpoints, because it's a
different from normal).

So a 7th level cleric werewolf is ECL 11, and CR 9.
omnicrondelicious
08-21-07, 11:50 AM There was an old series of articles on the D&D website that described how to break up lycanthropy into a 3-level template class. You can't find it directly on the wizards site anymore since their archives seemed to have vanished but you can get to it via a google search for:

site:www.wizards.com savage progressions lycanthropy

.o.
eamon
08-21-07, 11:55 AM To continue my example:

We have a 7th level cleric who's an afflicted werewolf. He's ECL 11. To gain a level and become ECL 12 he'd normally need 66000 XP! (whereas a normal character of ECL 7 needs only 28000XP to gain 8th.)

In practice, this realistically might mean that the character will never level again, and by the time it does, becoming ECL 12, he'll be in a party of 12th level characters, and he'll have a mere 8 class levels: he'll be completely outclassed.

Part of the problem is that ECL and LA are very conservative and meant to be difficult to "break". That means, that a twinked out fighter shouldn't have a huge advantage if he's using a werewolf template. Your poor player however, esp. if he's not a melee dude, won't be.

You have a choice: do you want this transition to penalize the character? If so, simply use the normal ECL rules. You could "slowly" apply the lycanthrope template, but after the first full moon and the first involuntary transition, that stretches believability. After that first full moon, I'd just let him have the full template, but not let him level until he had enough XP to gain 12th level. Notice that as an ECL 11 character, his XP-gain is going to be painstakingly slow....

Your other option: Maintain player balance. The CR adjustment is essentially balanced, power wise, but it's abusable. If you want a character that can continue to adventure with his compatriots and with lycanthropy without being underpowered, you should probably drop the level adjustment to +1 or even to 0 (and if the animal has a lot of HD, you'll need to be creative). The nice thing is, you don't need to tell the player in advance. Just wing it! If the rest of the party if 9th level, and you have the feeling that the character is roughly balanced, just decide then that the LA is +0 (and the 2 animal HD means thus ECL +2). If he's still too powerful, you wait a level... But if you want the player (assuming he cares at all about his character's power level) to actually keep this character, make sure you don't utterly nerf him, which a straightforward application of that huge XP gap is liable to do. It's a little boring not to level for ages too ;-).

Make sure you read the nastiness about the Control Shape skill in the MM (quite high DC's for a 7th level character who's forcibly untrained!), and consider that even in fully humanoid form the character will gain +2 natural armor and +2 Wis, scent, and low-light vision... Those are hints you can use to give the player :D.

It's a neat situation, have fun with it! :cool:
Shuuya
08-21-07, 03:09 PM Thanks alot eamon!
It really helped out. I'll probably keep it on hold until the lycanthropy is close to taking effect, or next session since the characters are stuck in a situation where they can't get access to a high enough level remove disease.
I'll discuss just putting the template on and waiting until he reaches a higher level before he gets more class levels or he pretty much loses the character to the affliction since he's been bitten by a werewolf. Normally, I'd take control of the character but I know the player is pretty mature and enjoys roleplaying so if I discuss it there's every chance that he'll hide it from the others, or try to, and play a Chaotic Evil alignment (unless he manages to supress the alignment change for a looong time) quite conservatively.
It all depends on whether he can come up with a good "plan of action" fitting to his new alignment, rather than "I smash stuff." I trust him enough to stick to it and to lean more towards the Evil aspect than the Chaotic.
Should be interesting either way, I'll just have to prepare a plan of action incase he goes postal after convincing me he wouldn't, or get ready for a new villain in the storyline.
Shuuya
08-21-07, 03:20 PM Or I'll discuss the option of reducing the werewolf LA a little. The guy is a pretty decked out Cleric though, mostly focuses on battle and buffs so I'm not too sure about knocking the LA completely away since the other characters are quite far behind him, especially since I watched him roll near max hp each level so he has a good 15-20hp more than the fighter. That said I can't just "ignore" the lycanthropy and fudge it because it'd be unfaithful to the adventure and the players if I took away that threat. I'll just have to look at how his character would fare before and after the template compared to different characters at levels 8-12 and decide whereabouts equal he stands.
This is all presuming he actually wants to keep the character of course.
BruceLeeroy
08-22-07, 04:47 AM Check out the level adjustment buyback variants presented in unearthed arcana. They won't be helpful to your situation in the immediate, but in the long term they make templates like lycanthropy much more attractive.
Sildatorak
08-22-07, 07:57 AM Notice that as an ECL 11 character, his XP-gain is going to be painstakingly slow....This part of the xp rules is one that I would ignore if someone just had a template thrust upon them. IMO, the intention of this rule is to allow characters who have fallen behind to play at least a little catchup. In this case, it really penalizes the afflicted lycan because even though he will suddenly be ECL 11, he will have the xp of an ECL 7 character.

Also, regarding applying the template in steps stretching believability, it is all a matter of description. If, over the course of two or three full moons and levels, you talk about the curse growing stronger and the cleric feeling the lycanthropy-fueled desires pushing more and more strongly to the front of his mind, it will still feel like there is a change occurring that the mechanics are mirroring.
Shuuya
08-22-07, 02:56 PM Also, regarding applying the template in steps stretching believability, it is all a matter of description. If, over the course of two or three full moons and levels, you talk about the curse growing stronger and the cleric feeling the lycanthropy-fueled desires pushing more and more strongly to the front of his mind, it will still feel like there is a change occurring that the mechanics are mirroring.

This idea might be a good idea, it could mean I would use something similar to the Savage Progression rules on the website. I think I might reduce it to a two or three level progression overall by combining the wolf features with the template because he really has had it thrust upon him and penalising him harshly for failing one saving throw might be a bad idea. Plus there's no access to someone who's Caster Level 12th for the Remove Disease he needs right now, since the players are in Ravenloft.
Thanks for all the options, it's cleared things up alot. I'll write down all the options which are balanced and see which the player would prefer.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shuuya 08-21-07, 08:39 AM	I'm currently running a campaign and one of the characters has, unknowingly, contracted lycanthropy. So unless he cures himself in the next 3 days it'll become harder for him to remove. Obviously I can't ask the players about the problem but I'm puzzled from a rules perspective of how to treat this. The MM says to treat Afflicted Lycanthropes as having LA +2 so I can't just say "Bang you're now a lycanthrope" because the player would gain 2 levels essentially. Additionally taking two of his class levels to replace them with the lycanthrope template seems quite cheap and the least desirable balancing course of action. Is there a way of splitting up the lycanthrope template into two levels so that the character can gain the full benefit in a balancing way, so as he advances he takes two levels in "lycanthrope?" I think this would be the best course of action but I'm still unsure of how to do it, but I'll also have to discuss it with the player once the incubation period is over and if he doesn't guess he has a disease and tries to remove it. If it helps he's only a 7th level cleric at the moment. Can anyone help?
eamon 08-21-07, 11:34 AM	I guess the simplest would be to halt his level progression until he reaches sufficient XP to level at his new progression - so right now he gains a temporary advantage. However, are you remembering to add the animals HD as well? For example, assuming he's been bitten by a werewolf, then not only does he "officially" have a LA +2 and 7 cleric levels, he also has 2 animal HD! (Look at the sample lycanthropes to see how this impacts things like hitpoints, because it's a different from normal). So a 7th level cleric werewolf is ECL 11, and CR 9.
omnicrondelicious 08-21-07, 11:50 AM	There was an old series of articles on the D&D website that described how to break up lycanthropy into a 3-level template class. You can't find it directly on the wizards site anymore since their archives seemed to have vanished but you can get to it via a google search for: site:www.wizards.com savage progressions lycanthropy .o.
eamon 08-21-07, 11:55 AM	To continue my example: We have a 7th level cleric who's an afflicted werewolf. He's ECL 11. To gain a level and become ECL 12 he'd normally need 66000 XP! (whereas a normal character of ECL 7 needs only 28000XP to gain 8th.) In practice, this realistically might mean that the character will never level again, and by the time it does, becoming ECL 12, he'll be in a party of 12th level characters, and he'll have a mere 8 class levels: he'll be completely outclassed. Part of the problem is that ECL and LA are very conservative and meant to be difficult to "break". That means, that a twinked out fighter shouldn't have a huge advantage if he's using a werewolf template. Your poor player however, esp. if he's not a melee dude, won't be. You have a choice: do you want this transition to penalize the character? If so, simply use the normal ECL rules. You could "slowly" apply the lycanthrope template, but after the first full moon and the first involuntary transition, that stretches believability. After that first full moon, I'd just let him have the full template, but not let him level until he had enough XP to gain 12th level. Notice that as an ECL 11 character, his XP-gain is going to be painstakingly slow.... Your other option: Maintain player balance. The CR adjustment is essentially balanced, power wise, but it's abusable. If you want a character that can continue to adventure with his compatriots and with lycanthropy without being underpowered, you should probably drop the level adjustment to +1 or even to 0 (and if the animal has a lot of HD, you'll need to be creative). The nice thing is, you don't need to tell the player in advance. Just wing it! If the rest of the party if 9th level, and you have the feeling that the character is roughly balanced, just decide then that the LA is +0 (and the 2 animal HD means thus ECL +2). If he's still too powerful, you wait a level... But if you want the player (assuming he cares at all about his character's power level) to actually keep this character, make sure you don't utterly nerf him, which a straightforward application of that huge XP gap is liable to do. It's a little boring not to level for ages too ;-). Make sure you read the nastiness about the Control Shape skill in the MM (quite high DC's for a 7th level character who's forcibly untrained!), and consider that even in fully humanoid form the character will gain +2 natural armor and +2 Wis, scent, and low-light vision... Those are hints you can use to give the player :D. It's a neat situation, have fun with it! :cool:
Shuuya 08-21-07, 03:09 PM	Thanks alot eamon! It really helped out. I'll probably keep it on hold until the lycanthropy is close to taking effect, or next session since the characters are stuck in a situation where they can't get access to a high enough level remove disease. I'll discuss just putting the template on and waiting until he reaches a higher level before he gets more class levels or he pretty much loses the character to the affliction since he's been bitten by a werewolf. Normally, I'd take control of the character but I know the player is pretty mature and enjoys roleplaying so if I discuss it there's every chance that he'll hide it from the others, or try to, and play a Chaotic Evil alignment (unless he manages to supress the alignment change for a looong time) quite conservatively. It all depends on whether he can come up with a good "plan of action" fitting to his new alignment, rather than "I smash stuff." I trust him enough to stick to it and to lean more towards the Evil aspect than the Chaotic. Should be interesting either way, I'll just have to prepare a plan of action incase he goes postal after convincing me he wouldn't, or get ready for a new villain in the storyline.
Shuuya 08-21-07, 03:20 PM	Or I'll discuss the option of reducing the werewolf LA a little. The guy is a pretty decked out Cleric though, mostly focuses on battle and buffs so I'm not too sure about knocking the LA completely away since the other characters are quite far behind him, especially since I watched him roll near max hp each level so he has a good 15-20hp more than the fighter. That said I can't just "ignore" the lycanthropy and fudge it because it'd be unfaithful to the adventure and the players if I took away that threat. I'll just have to look at how his character would fare before and after the template compared to different characters at levels 8-12 and decide whereabouts equal he stands. This is all presuming he actually wants to keep the character of course.
BruceLeeroy 08-22-07, 04:47 AM	Check out the level adjustment buyback variants presented in unearthed arcana. They won't be helpful to your situation in the immediate, but in the long term they make templates like lycanthropy much more attractive.
Sildatorak 08-22-07, 07:57 AM	Notice that as an ECL 11 character, his XP-gain is going to be painstakingly slow....This part of the xp rules is one that I would ignore if someone just had a template thrust upon them. IMO, the intention of this rule is to allow characters who have fallen behind to play at least a little catchup. In this case, it really penalizes the afflicted lycan because even though he will suddenly be ECL 11, he will have the xp of an ECL 7 character. Also, regarding applying the template in steps stretching believability, it is all a matter of description. If, over the course of two or three full moons and levels, you talk about the curse growing stronger and the cleric feeling the lycanthropy-fueled desires pushing more and more strongly to the front of his mind, it will still feel like there is a change occurring that the mechanics are mirroring.
Shuuya 08-22-07, 02:56 PM	Also, regarding applying the template in steps stretching believability, it is all a matter of description. If, over the course of two or three full moons and levels, you talk about the curse growing stronger and the cleric feeling the lycanthropy-fueled desires pushing more and more strongly to the front of his mind, it will still feel like there is a change occurring that the mechanics are mirroring. This idea might be a good idea, it could mean I would use something similar to the Savage Progression rules on the website. I think I might reduce it to a two or three level progression overall by combining the wolf features with the template because he really has had it thrust upon him and penalising him harshly for failing one saving throw might be a bad idea. Plus there's no access to someone who's Caster Level 12th for the Remove Disease he needs right now, since the players are in Ravenloft. Thanks for all the options, it's cleared things up alot. I'll write down all the options which are balanced and see which the player would prefer.