Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dravda 12-27-07, 08:01 PM	I have a few questions about the Fireball spell, mostly because of how often it's cast in my campaigns. Here goes. 1) Do you guys let the caster detonate a fireball exactly 20 feet away from a bad guy so as to hit the bad guy but not the hero who's in melee with him? 2) How do you go about aiming the fireball itself? Do you require a ranged touch attack against the square you want to aim it? If so, what is a square's AC? 3) Meteor Swarm functions a lot like Fireball, and it mentions that if you hit a creature with a ranged touch attack, the creature gets no save. I see no reason not to do the same with fireball, although I would say that it doesn't explode in the creature's square if you miss: if you miss, it keeps going until it hits something. 4) How do you "aim around" good guys/bad guys? Do you simply count them as soft cover to the target square's AC? Thanks in advance. -Count Dravda
calronmoonflower 12-27-07, 08:17 PM	1) Do you guys let the caster detonate a fireball exactly 20 feet away from a bad guy so as to hit the bad guy but not the hero who's in melee with him? Well by the Rules As Written it works just fine. You can even aim it 20 feet above their heads. 2) How do you go about aiming the fireball itself? Do you require a ranged touch attack against the square you want to aim it? If so, what is a square's AC? The spells description covers this. Unless you have a difficult shot you need no attack roll. 3) Meteor Swarm functions a lot like Fireball, and it mentions that if you hit a creature with a ranged touch attack, the creature gets no save. I see no reason not to do the same with fireball, although I would say that it doesn't explode in the creature's square if you miss: if you miss, it keeps going until it hits something. You can Rule 0 it if you want, but remember to call it a house rule and tell the players before implementation. 4) How do you "aim around" good guys/bad guys? Do you simply count them as soft cover to the target square's AC? If you both use soft cover and Rule 0 it to require an attack roll then it would.
PoweredBySoy 12-27-07, 08:35 PM	I would like to hear some suggestions on this as well. As the rules currently stand, I find them a little.... broken. "I aim the fireball so it lands exactly 19 feet behind the orc". If the enemy is in melee with a friendly PC, and you cast a explosive fireball, there should be at least some danger to the friendly. Perhaps house rule that a fireball spell (and the like) needs some sort of object to manifest itself onto - that you can't just perfectly position it in space. So a tree, column, a bystander (lol), or the enemy himself would be needed to "aim" a fireball. That way you wouldn't need an attack roll.
PenderGrass 12-27-07, 08:36 PM	3) Meteor Swarm functions a lot like Fireball, and it mentions that if you hit a creature with a ranged touch attack, the creature gets no save. I see no reason not to do the same with fireball, although I would say that it doesn't explode in the creature's square if you miss: if you miss, it keeps going until it hits something. The only thing I would point out here is that by allowing a fireball to have an attack roll, you open the door to many opportunities for it to work far differently than what its original purpose is - such as critical hits. This could very well make fireball a much more powerful type of spell. Remember, even though the DMG says it is fine to change the mechanics of the game, it is always wise to consider all the ramifications of each change before implementing them into your game. :dragon: *****
Mock26 12-27-07, 08:44 PM	This is one of the reasons why I always liked (and prefer) the old 2nd edition rules regarding fireball because it created a set amount of fire, not a set area filled with flames. The old fireball created 33,409 square feet of fire (that's a 20' radius sphere or roughly 33.5 10x10 cubes). I always made my players pick the point of detination and wouldn't let them just say, "I want it to just clip the enemy buy not my comrades." Outside and in very large spaces this isn't a problem, but in tight spaces it made the spell, in my opinion, a lot more interesting. I also think that the old version was much more realistic.
IAmTheScum 12-27-07, 09:42 PM	This is one of the reasons why I always liked (and prefer) the old 2nd edition rules regarding fireball because it created a set amount of fire, not a set area filled with flames. The old fireball created 33,409 square feet of fire (that's a 20' radius sphere or roughly 33.5 10x10 cubes). I always made my players pick the point of detination and wouldn't let them just say, "I want it to just clip the enemy buy not my comrades." Outside and in very large spaces this isn't a problem, but in tight spaces it made the spell, in my opinion, a lot more interesting. I also think that the old version was much more realistic. But who wants to calculate volume every time fireball is cast?
Man in the Funny Hat 12-27-07, 09:44 PM	1) Do you guys let the caster detonate a fireball exactly 20 feet away from a bad guy so as to hit the bad guy but not the hero who's in melee with him?Yep. That is how it's written. Check the books again and you'll see a nice template (don't remember if it's in PH or DMG). Center it where you want and it affects THOSE squares. 2) How do you go about aiming the fireball itself? Do you require a ranged touch attack against the square you want to aim it? If so, what is a square's AC?You pick the center of detonation and barring UNUSUAL circumstances that is where the spell detonates. Unless you are targetting a spot that does, in fact, have COVER from something, or if there is an unseen barrier between caster and point of detonation there is no reason whatsoever to "aim" it. So, with only a few exceptions it acts like any other spell would and requires no ADDITIONAL special rules for normal use. 3) Meteor Swarm functions a lot like Fireball, and it mentions that if you hit a creature with a ranged touch attack, the creature gets no save. I see no reason not to do the same with fireball, although I would say that it doesn't explode in the creature's square if you miss: if you miss, it keeps going until it hits something.Fireball detonates at the chosen location whether there is something there or not. And no, there is no reason to apply rules from OTHER spells to Fireball unless you like lots of funky house rules like that. 4) How do you "aim around" good guys/bad guys? Do you simply count them as soft cover to the target square's AC?Again, you don't "aim" the spell PERIOD. Fireball is ONLY a special case because it CAN detonate prematurely if there is, in fact, something that WILL make it detonate. If the caster can, in fact, SEE the destination then there is nothing for the caster to worry about no matter HOW many people are there. In 3rd Edition when your turn comes up people ARE where they ARE and you don't need to account for them moving around. Unless there is a completely blocking PHYSICAL or some magical IMPASSIBLE barrier the spell will simply detonate where indicated. Special rules exist for Fireball for fairly specific targetting purposes - getting it through narrow openings. If that rule were intended for general application on the battlefield then it would have been WRITTEN for general application on the battlefield in getting it around people and visible obstacles.
Mock26 12-27-07, 10:25 PM	But who wants to calculate volume every time fireball is cast? Once you know the volume generated by a fireball, and after you figure it out in relation to the space it has been cast in a couple of times, it becomes as easy as adding your BAB and your magic weapon bonuses to your die roll.
DarkRhystar 12-27-07, 11:06 PM	Do people really think Fireball is so overpowered that it needs to be nerfed by adding an attack roll or some other modification to it?
Salla 12-27-07, 11:23 PM	Do people really think Fireball is so overpowered that it needs to be nerfed by adding an attack roll or some other modification to it? Since Fireball kinda sucks ... let's hope not.
kuonji 12-28-07, 02:15 AM	Since Fireball kinda sucks ... let's hope not. Agreed.
Kouk 12-28-07, 07:29 AM	Do you have to "aim" a Hold Person spell? The target probably isn't standing perfectly still to begin with and he may have cover... but you don't have to aim it because it does not call for an attack roll. This is the same thing, the Fireball will go where you want it to go, that's all. Area Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below. Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection. You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell’s area, anything within that square is within the spell’s area. If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell. It is much easier to utilize area spells if you use the appropriate templates, which you can find pictures of in the back of the DMG. Steel Sqwire makes what I find to be an invaluable product for aiming spells, they make area of effect templates which are wire frames mimicking the ones in the DMG. Here is a picture of the radius templates which simulate the "Spheres" in action: http://paizo.com/image/product/catalog/IMPSQW/IMPSQW10090_500.jpeg The listed prices are kind of high, but if you shop around you can probably find them for half price. They also have Cone templates for horizontal and diagonal cones (unfortunately you have to buy them separately, but cones are not usually as common as spheres). I use the 20ft radius template about 5 times a session, it makes it much easier to adjudicate what gets affected by area spells like Fireball and Web. You could also make your own, but it is more difficult to put in place if it is solid cardboard. I have seen in the past posts where people do require that the caster of a Fireball "aim" at the grid intersection he wants, and if he misses then the caster rolls 1d8 to determine which square it actually lands in -- but keep in mind that a grid intersection typically has an AC of 5, you could easily shoot it into the air (there is a 3rd dimension in D&D though it is easy to forget) with practically no chance for cover to get in the way. At some point, probably about level 5 to 7, it won't even be worth the time to have the caster roll unless you want to use "1 is an auto miss" or something. Personally I don't think this is good because it specifically targets Fireballs, and no other area spell, simply because the DM gets tired of the Fireballs. There are tactics that intelligent NPCs would use to counter Fireballs, and so you could use them instead of trying to "punish" the Wizard for doing his role well.
Kouk 12-28-07, 07:42 AM	Fireballs giving your NPCs trouble? Here are some simple suggestions (I am not making fun of anyone here): Use enemies with Fire Resistance, natural or through spells and items. Use enemies with Spell Resistance, natural or through spells and items. Use enemies with high Reflex Saves, natural or through spells and items. Use enemies with Evasion as a feature, through class features or special races. Use enemies who do not "bunch up" and present easy targets. Use enemies who are "shorter" than your allies to prevent explosions overhead. Use enemies who mix themselves in with the party, for flanking or just to stymie area spells for risk of hurting allies. Use enemies who disable or kill the obvious spellcasters in the party. Use enemies with more hit points. Use enemies who Grapple with the party members, making Fireball use risk hurting allies. Use enemy casters who Counterspell, or have items which can do so. Fireball is really not that tremendous of a spell if used against a single target: 10d6 max for a level 3 spell on a single target, with SR and save for half is not optimal. Compare with Scorching Ray which at level 7 deals 8d6 with no save and is only level 2. At level 11 it is a level 2 spell which deals 12d6 with no save. If the Wizard is using Fireball against single targets, he is pretty much using his spells in suboptimal ways (though it may be necessary) and you don't need to nerf him further.
PoweredBySoy 12-28-07, 08:01 AM	Personally, it has nothing to do with feeling the fireball is overpowered, or that my PC's are beating up my NPC's too bad. I would want my PC's to do well and feel powerful. It's more the fact that a caster can perfectly control this explosive flame down to mear inches from hitting his friendlies. Not to mention this intended target and friendly in question are, realistically, jumping and moving around in combat - and not just static objects. I find thats kind of silly - almost like an exploit everytime the caster does it. I would not want to nerf fireball to fix this, or have to include any sort of attack roll for the caster. I would rather see an added danger to those in melee with the intended targets. For instance, if the target of a fireball spell is in melee with a PC, and the PC is just outside the target range, perhaps force the melee target to take half damage, with a reflex save for zero. I don't know....
Fireclave 12-28-07, 08:51 AM	It's more the fact that a caster can perfectly control this explosive flame down to mear inches from hitting his friendlies. Not to mention this intended target and friendly in question are, realistically, jumping and moving around in combat - and not just static objects. Also, the characters (not the players) controlling the phenomenal cosmic power courses through their bodies and emanates from their hands, are probably a lot more skilled and practiced at aiming said power than you give them credit. And while it's true that enemies and friendlies in combat are not static, neither is the caster. Just as you assume that all creatures are bobbing and weaving in the flow of combat, the caster is likewise non-static. The caster is bobbing and weaving as well, waiting for the right time and opening to aim and fire his spells. It seems like you want to add more realism to you game, but remember that D&D combat is an abstraction. Realism sometimes has to take a backseat to game mechanics and game balance. I would rather see an added danger to those in melee with the intended targets. For instance, if the target of a fireball spell is in melee with a PC, and the PC is just outside the target range, perhaps force the melee target to take half damage, with a reflex save for zero. This would be a very nerfy precedent for area spells in general, or did you only intend to single out Fireball? Either way, though I realize this is not your intention, it feels like you're trying to punish your players for using basic combat tactics. Also keep in mind that the Fireball spell is not an regular explosion. A regular explosion, such as from a gasoline explosion, creates pulse of pressure that can damage things beyond is initial, firery blast radius (either directly or indirectly by flinging debris). Fireball, to quote the spell, "detonates with a low roar" and "creates almost no pressure." It's more of a "Froomph" than a "Boom". There is no forceful blast that would harm anything immediately outside of it's area.
PoweredBySoy 12-28-07, 09:20 AM	Also, the characters (not the players) controlling the phenomenal cosmic power courses through their bodies and emanates from their hands, are probably a lot more skilled and practiced at aiming said power than you give them credit. Aahhh. I'm not sure what credit I should be giving these people, since I've never personally launched a fireball before. And while it's true that enemies and friendlies in combat are not static, neither is the caster. Just as you assume that all creatures are bobbing and weaving in the flow of combat, the caster is likewise non-static. The caster is bobbing and weaving as well, waiting for the right time and opening to aim and fire his spells. Well, going down this road, I guess I could argue that the caster also has to cast the spell with a verbal, somatic and material component (taking Fireball as an example). So as he's standing there waving his hands, speaking jibberish, and throwing sulfur into the air... these two combatants are swinging and dodging in their respective 5-foot squares. Pinning the effects of the fireball down to mere inches on a moving target still seems weak. This would be a very nerfy precedent for area spells in general, or did you only intend to single out Fireball? Either way, though I realize this is not your intention, it feels like you're trying to punish your players for using basic combat tactics. You make it sound like I've never played a PC before, or that I have some DMG vs PC mentality. That isn't it at all, and the same rules would apply for the NPC's as well. I actually think a rule like this would demand more tactics from the players. Saying "I place the fireball riiiiiiight here... so it hits this orc but not the Cleric he's fighting" is not tactics. Weighing benefits against possible consequences in the heat of battle carries more excitement, in my opinion. And of course I haven't thought this all the way through yet, but I would certainly apply the given house rule (whatever that may be) to all area of effect spells that don't require an attack roll. My goal is certainly not to nerf the spell itself. I'm not lowering the damage to enemies or instituting an attack roll. If anything, the fireball itself is more powerful now. I would just like to see the casters not be so cavalier about using these spells in such close proximity to their teammates.
Evil DM Mk3 12-28-07, 10:14 AM	1) Do you guys let the caster detonate a fireball exactly 20 feet away from a bad guy so as to hit the bad guy but not the hero who's in melee with him?That is ok. It is also why a villain and his minions should swarm around the PCs so the wizard has to waste a fireball on one or hit his mate. 2) How do you go about aiming the fireball itself? Do you require a ranged touch attack against the square you want to aim it? If so, what is a square's AC?It hits regardless, no and 10 in that order. 3) Meteor Swarm functions a lot like Fireball, and it mentions that if you hit a creature with a ranged touch attack, the creature gets no save. I see no reason not to do the same with fireball, although I would say that it doesn't explode in the creature's square if you miss: if you miss, it keeps going until it hits something.Not getting a reflex save is called being hit by a meteor. 4) How do you "aim around" good guys/bad guys? Do you simply count them as soft cover to the target square's AC? Not relevant. Thanks in advance. -Count Dravda You are welcome
Kouk 12-28-07, 10:41 AM	Personally, it has nothing to do with feeling the fireball is overpowered, or that my PC's are beating up my NPC's too bad. I would want my PC's to do well and feel powerful. It's more the fact that a caster can perfectly control this explosive flame down to mear inches from hitting his friendlies. Not to mention this intended target and friendly in question are, realistically, jumping and moving around in combat - and not just static objects. I find thats kind of silly - almost like an exploit everytime the caster does it. OK, you seem to have a bit of a mistaken impression of the aiming. The caster is not aiming at a creature who is moving, he is aiming at a grid intersection: "The point of origin of a (area) spell is always a grid intersection." from the quote I gave earlier from the Magic chapter about "Aiming a Spell" regarding Area spells. The point in space is not moving in all probability. Grid intersections have an AC of 5, as spelled out in Throw Splash Weapon rules in the Combat chapter. Also, you shouldn't think of a Fireball's radius as an actual sphere. In the game world, perhaps it is, but mechanically in 3.5 it is a jaggedy circle-like outline like in the picture I linked earlier. About enemies involved in melee combat: They are usually about 5 feet away from each other, dancing around in their squares. 5 feet is a pretty big margin for error that the caster can be assumed to be aware of. This is hardly a "surgical strike". Unless the opponents are actually Grappling (sharing the same square) there shouldn't be much of a chance of inadvertent friendly-fire (if they are Grappling then they are both in the same affected square). The default rules don't allow for a missed attack roll to "accidentally" hit an adjacent ally, or a stray arrow to hit the enemy behind the one you aimed at. The only noteworthy thing with any sort of precedence for "missing" being a real problem for hurting your friends is the Throw Splash Weapon mechanic really. These are professional adventurers; heroes who can slay dragons with their bare hands if they wanted to. They should have a fairly good sense of their capabilities. A baseball pitcher might miss his target occasionally, but rarely by more than 5 feet in a random direction I would think, and throwing the ball would be modeled as a Ranged (Touch) Attack. Aiming an Area spell is even easier than that, it doesn't even require an attack roll after all.
PenderGrass 12-28-07, 02:28 PM	Do people really think Fireball is so overpowered that it needs to be nerfed by adding an attack roll or some other modification to it? Nerf? Hardly. Adding an attack roll to fireball allows people to crit with it. Double the fireball damage? Not a nerf in my book. Not a nerf at all. :dragon: *****
Man in the Funny Hat 12-28-07, 02:39 PM	Adding an attack roll to fireball allows people to crit with it.Except that people generally do not combine those two effects. They simply add something like an attack roll or "accuracy" roll because they DO feel (without real basis IMO) that fireball is too powerful or problematic so they add greater difficulty and complication to it. Fireball in 1E was simply more complicated than it needed to be and ever since people have either continued to assume it is more complicated than it IS, or MADE it more complicated when it didn't need to be.
PenderGrass 12-28-07, 04:55 PM	Except that people generally do not combine those two effects. They simply add something like an attack roll or "accuracy" roll because they DO feel (without real basis IMO) that fireball is too powerful or problematic so they add greater difficulty and complication to it. Fireball in 1E was simply more complicated than it needed to be and ever since people have either continued to assume it is more complicated than it IS, or MADE it more complicated when it didn't need to be. I disagree. 1st edition had an easy-to-use fireball. Then again, I also could calculate THAC0 with no problem. Also, any DM that makes me throw a d20 to hit something had better be ready to explain how it isn't an attack roll. :dragon: *****
Legdiwena 01-02-08, 02:48 PM	You can also use Shape Spell to exclude allies from the blast.
FarSouth 01-06-08, 08:53 PM	Do you guys let the caster detonate a fireball exactly 20 feet away from a bad guy so as to hit the bad guy but not the hero who's in melee with him? In principle (and most often), yes - but it depends on the circumstances. If the physical layout is so tight that there is hardly any margin for errror, then I would tell the player that there is a possibility that they may accidentally catch their comrade in the blast. If they go ahead with it, I'd roll dice to determine whether this chance becomes a reality, and if so, the affected character would get an extra bonus on their save. Alternatively, to ensure that they don't hit their friend in such situations, they might have to aim the fireball in such a way that the target creature gets a bonus on its save. It's then up to the caster to decide how he wants to proceed. This happened in a session last night in fact. The caster went for the low risk option, and although he hit the monster it got a save bonus. How do you go about aiming the fireball itself? Do you require a ranged touch attack against the square you want to aim it? If so, what is a square's AC? I don't think there's any good reason to require anything extra, for the reasons stated by many others above. If you're worried about fireball being too powerful, you're better off rectifying it with (a) better protection/resistance for the party's opponents or (b) better tactics by their opponents that make the use of fireball less attractive - rather than changing this one spell.