Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Selfless_Id 04-25-07, 05:01 PM	Perhaps this belongs here. My friend is DMing for his brother and HIS friend(s). I am co-DMing. I will also be playing an NPC disguised as a PC for story purposes. He will be in the main party almost all of the time. This 'NPC', we're calling it, is a Silver Dragon (young -- 22-25 years old) and is being Alter Formed, most likely a drow, permanently for story purposes. Some issues have arrived that we need clearing up (its my job to get this guy ready to go but my friend has all the books and is at work so I would poring over the books to find an answer but I don't have quick access to the books -- only the online SRD). First off... What abilities of the Dragon are going to carry over? Will any carry over? Will none carry over? Are we going to end up with something like this: HP: 13d12+26 + 1d10+new con mod(drow)/class lvl Stats: Str: ? Dex: ? +2(drow) Con: ? -2(drow) Int: 16(dragon) +2(drow) Wis: 17(dragon) Cha: 16(dragon) +2(drow) AC: 10(base) + 12 (dragon) + new dex mod(drow) + armor BAB: 13 + class bonus Fortitude: 10 + class bonus + new con mod(drow) Reflex: 8 + class bonus + new dex mod(drow) Will: 11 + class bonus + old wis mod(dragon) Breath weapon 6d8(dragon) Immunity to acid and cold(dragon) Cloudwalking(dragon) Vulnerability to fire(dragon) Class skills + Bluff, Disguise, and Jump(dragon) You can see a few issues up there. First how are we to determine Str, Dex, and Con of a Drow? The Drow in the MM has Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12 (unmodified). Seeing as this is a PC NPC (weird I know) should we roll the stats? For BAB do we do the normal -5 to determine extra attacks? And I want to confirm that nothing of a Drow being carries over to the NPC except for the stat mods -- is that correct? I know this is gonna require you to pull out the trusty 3.5MM but bare with me please because I really need the help to figure this out before Saturday. Thanks.
tos_shai_hulud 04-25-07, 05:53 PM	Alternate form spells out what the dragon would keep and what he would lose. Lets take a look: A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature: The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well. The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature). The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form. The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution. The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores. Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components. The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise. Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped. So, first off, we know the dragon maintains his type and subtypes. His type will still be Dragon, even in drow form. His subtype will still be Cold, even in drow form. Next, we find that the dragon loses his natural armor, and gains any natural armor of the drow. The drow has none. Same with natural attacks. Drow have no extraordinary special attacks (except for drow poison, but the entry says he gains no special proficiency with it. It is simply something that drow are fond of). The spell-like abilities of a drow are not extraordinary, so the dragon does not gain them, either. He would keep his own spell-like abilities, but loses its breath weapon. He keeps all of his special qualities, so Darkvision 120 ft., low-light vision x4 (normal vision x2), blindsense 60 ft., Immunity to Cold, Vulnerablitiy to Fire, Dragon spell resistance (not drow spell resistance), Damage reduction (if any), Frightful Presence (if they have it), and sorcerous spellcasting. He would gain the abilities of a normal drow, not a warrior, as the Monster Manual shows. The normal drow would have stats of 10 unless boosted by an ability score modifier. This means the dragon would have a 10/12/8 for Str/Dex/Con. (Note that the dragon's hit points don't decrease due to lower constitution, but if he were to take 8 Con damage while in drow form, he would die.) So, from what you were saying, we would end up with the following: HD: 13d12+26+1d10+dragon con bonus (his class hit dice don't cause him to use the Con bonus from Drow. His HPs are based on his Dragon form, not his Drow form. Str: 10 Dex: 12 Con: 8 Int: either standard 16 or rolled+6 Wis: either standard 17 or rolled+6 Cha: either standard 16 or rolled+6 AC: 10(base)+1 Dex+armor (dragon natural armor is lost) BAB: 13+class bonus Fort: 8 (base) -1 (Drow Con) = 7 (add in class modifiers to base) Ref: 8 (base) +1 (Drow Dex) = 9 (add in class modifiers to base) Will: 8 (base) + 3 (dragon wisdom modifier still applies) = 11 (add in class modifiers to base) Immunity to sleep, paralysis, acid, and cold. Cloudwalking Vulnerability to fire. Anyway, for determining stats, you do not roll for drow stats, because alternate form always chooses the base drow, but if you like, you can choose to roll stats for the dragon. Its stat modifiers are: Str +6 Con +4 Int +6 Wis +6 Cha +6 The dragon has three attacks per round for a high base attack bonus (just as if it had levels in fighter). This dragon would fit in great with an 18th level party.
Selfless_Id 04-25-07, 08:23 PM	When it came to save throws I was looking at the tables not the base field. Sorry about that. Thanks for the detailed response. This'll be applicable for all Polymorphing issues in the future so again I thank you. Admittedly he's come off a bit strong. Specifically the HP area. He is an NPC with a specific agenda so we want him to be powerful. Perhaps some nerfing is in order though.
tos_shai_hulud 04-25-07, 08:44 PM	For an interesting nerf, he could simply play down his own abilities. He can voluntarily take a -10 to all attack rolls or something to make himself less effective. He could limit himself to a single attack per round. Making every saving throw might get boring for you, as well. Perhaps allowing some spells to affect you would be fun for the dragon. It helps him fit in. Perhaps even feigning unconsciousness now and again would help. If he has high bluff, the party would probably never know that his injuries were not more severe. Make up a drow fighter of a level that should be travelling with the party, determine hit points, and decide that is the hit point pool that he will be working with, rather than his full pool. When he gets lower than that, he feigns unconsciousness.
Magrus 04-25-07, 08:55 PM	The loss of flight, physical bonuses and breath weapon is definitely a hit to the power level of the NPC. However, that would be a powerful NPC no doubt about it. Why not go with a Very Young Silver instead? It's the youngest you can get to be medium size, and is only ECL 14 (10 HD). With losing the breath and flight permanently, and the hit to the ability scores and natural armor, the ECL should be dropped by 2 I would think. An ECL 12 permanently altered form dragon.
Selfless_Id 04-25-07, 09:27 PM	The only problem with very young is he would be infact very young. A 15 year old wont really fit with the way we're going with this. But you make a valid point. It could be extrapolated that his mentality would be different since he was raised with at least one other dragon or sorc. I like that playing down that you mentioned Tos. It would add a fun dynamic to him. I could see my friend and I bursting into laughter about specific situation, like some trap or something, where the NPC screws up intentionally. And that would allow him to step up when we get into a story fight like with our red Dragon Antagonist >> << >> shhhh...
Selfless_Id 04-25-07, 11:21 PM	I remembered something I needed to ask. What about feat prerequisits? Are they base on the Dragon's stats or the Drow STR, DEX, CON?
Lilinthra 04-25-07, 11:35 PM	I believe that you would take them as per the Dragon's stats, but some might not be applicable in Drow form. For example, Power Attack has a prerequisite of Str 13. Great for a dragon, not so great for the drow alternate form with Str 10 non-buffed. Same for Meta-breath feats, the dragon has the feat, he/she just can't use it while playing a drow.
Selfless_Id 04-25-07, 11:48 PM	Well the NPC will be forced to stay in the Drow form via a higher power for an extended period (perhaps years).
Selfless_Id 04-26-07, 01:11 PM	Alright so he'll get Feats for being level 13 right (plus any gain from leveling as a class)? (HD 13d12+23) What about stat bonuses every four levels?
tos_shai_hulud 04-26-07, 02:00 PM	Alright so he'll get Feats for being level 13 right (plus any gain from leveling as a class)? (HD 13d12+23) What about stat bonuses every four levels? Dragons gain age categories every three hit dice, invalidating the stat bonuses every four hit dice. If they receive stat bonuses from a class, those remain, carried over from one age category to the next. Because of that, you ignore the dragon's racial hit dice when determining when they receive stat bonuses. Yes, he gains feats based on his hit dice + class levels, so if you give him one level of fighter, he will have six feats (five normal feats and one bonus fighter feat). If you give him a second level of fighter, he will have eight feats (six normal feats and two bonus fighter feats).
Selfless_Id 04-27-07, 11:25 AM	"Feats: All dragons have one feat, plus additional feats based on Hit Dice just like any other creature. " So if he had a HD of 13d12 and 1 fighter lvl would he not have 1 feat (from being a Dragon), 5 feats from HD, and 1 feat from lvl 1 fighter progression? = 7 So if he had two fighter lvls -- 1(dragon) + 6(HD) + 2(fighter) = 9 Or is the first feat granted for being a dragon actually one of the HD feats?
tos_shai_hulud 04-27-07, 12:39 PM	Yes, that first feat is the feat that all creatures gain at first hit die. Additional feats are gained at every multiple of three hit dice.