"Power Storing" abuse? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Power Storing" abuse? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jow253
07-11-07, 07:03 PM "Power Storing" is a +1 psionic weapon enhancement from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It allows "a single targeted power of up to 5 power points" to be stored in the enchanted weapon as a standard action. If the wielder strikes a creature and does damage, he can have the weapon "immediately manifest the power on that creature as a swift action if [he] desires."

There are a large number of Psion buffs (like wizard buffs) that would be extremely useful to other classes, but that are restricted to the self. Most of these include attack bonus, ac, empathy type buffs. In the descriptions of many of these, it reads "target: you."

Does that make it a targeted spell? If so, can it be put into a power storing weapon and given to an ally?

I allowed it in my game. Although it is a text-lawyering situation, it's not a horrendously overpowered exploitation. Not to mention, it didn't help the psion at all (except for the satisfaction of smacking the fighter in the back of the head all he wanted - "it's good for you"). It was a party favoring ability that fostered teamwork (and flowers), in stark contrast to nova builds.

energy retribution on the main fighter was always fun.

anyways, would you allow this?
Mock26
07-11-07, 07:12 PM I would take the description to mean that you store some sort of offensive power in the weapon and that is transferred to the target. It would only work for offensive powers that cause damage or "harm" the target in some way.
Colmarr
07-11-07, 10:11 PM I don't have access to the Psionic Handbook and can't comment on your summary of the special ability, but assuming you have summarised the ability correctly, I would rule that the tactic is not valid.

If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.

That quote is from the "Spell failure" section of the Magic chapter in the PHB. I'm not an expert on psionics (I've never used them) but I assume there is a similar quote in the psionics rules.

In this case, the power is being targetted at another PC. Regardless of whether you consider the power to be manifested by the psion or the weapon, the target of the power is not the caster, and the characteristics of the power (namely "Target: You") cannot be met.

Therefore, the casting fails and the power is lost from the weapon.

Edit: If you disagree with that ruling (and I admit that there might be flaws in it if the psionic rules don't include the quoted text), remember that the weapon must deal damage to manifest the power, and there are no rules in RAW for lessening your damage (only for changing it to non-lethal).
Mock26
07-11-07, 10:32 PM Edit: If you disagree with that ruling (and I admit that there might be flaws in it if the psionic rules don't include the quoted text), remember that the weapon must deal damage to manifest the power, and there are no rules in RAW for lessening your damage (only for changing it to non-lethal). But there are rules in the RAW for changing the rules. The DM could rule that you could poke someone lightly with a dagger and deal only 1 point of damage, or even to deal no damage even though it would be considered an attack and could transfer the psion "charge".
Colmarr
07-11-07, 10:34 PM True :)

The edit was more for the purposes of a DM who doesn't want to allow this use of the power but feels compelled to.

or even to deal no damage even though it would be considered an attack.

but don't forget that the power's text states that the attack must do damage to entitle the psion to manifest the power; which raises the question of DR and of course Spell Resistance (Power Resistance?) is also an issue.
Mock26
07-11-07, 10:37 PM True :)

The edit was more for the purposes of a DM who doesn't want to allow this use of the power but feels compelled to.

I kind of like the idea of a psion-warrior standing there with an innocent look on his face while holding a glowing great sword in hand, saying to someone, "No, really, it won't kill you when I stab you with my sword. Well, it probably won't will you. But, it will allow me to transfer some of my psionic powers to you. If you live."
Colmarr
07-11-07, 10:51 PM :D
DrMorganes
07-12-07, 06:42 PM "Power Storing" is a +1 psionic weapon enhancement from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It allows "a single targeted power of up to 5 power points" to be stored in the enchanted weapon as a standard action. If the wielder strikes a creature and does damage, he can have the weapon "immediately manifest the power on that creature as a swift action if [he] desires."

There are a large number of Psion buffs (like wizard buffs) that would be extremely useful to other classes, but that are restricted to the self. Most of these include attack bonus, ac, empathy type buffs. In the descriptions of many of these, it reads "target: you."

Does that make it a targeted spell? If so, can it be put into a power storing weapon and given to an ally?

I allowed it in my game. Although it is a text-lawyering situation, it's not a horrendously overpowered exploitation. Not to mention, it didn't help the psion at all (except for the satisfaction of smacking the fighter in the back of the head all he wanted - "it's good for you"). It was a party favoring ability that fostered teamwork (and flowers), in stark contrast to nova builds.

energy retribution on the main fighter was always fun.

anyways, would you allow this?

This works exactly like a spell storing weapon. You're limited targeted offensive spells only. "You" is never a valid target for such a spell or power. Since the attack must do damage, you must do enough damage to overcome (or otherwise bypass) applicable DR - otherwise you DIDN'T do any damage. From there, most Spell/Power Resistance would apply, as the effect is directly targeted to the creature with SR/PR.
jow253
07-12-07, 08:28 PM If DR was granted by something like adamantium armor, I think it would be safe to allow the PC to expose his neck or something uncovered by the armor to negate DR. Are players allowed to suppress their SR the same way they can voluntarily fail a will save? or are characters with SR hard to cure?

It's clear that the enhancement was meant to be used for offensive/status ailment spells, but it doesn't say that in the description (for spell storing or power storing). That seems more like an assumption.

I don't know about the argument for spell failure in the PHB. It seems more like you actually manifest the power into the weapon, then later the power "is manifest" a lot like from a wand.

The only restriction it puts on the power is that it must be 5pp or less and must be a targeted spell. I hate to be equivocative, but self buffs are targeted spells (even if the target is you, it says "target" in the spell description).

I like to stir things.
Myzery78
07-13-07, 09:37 PM This works exactly like a spell storing weapon. You're limited targeted offensive spells only. "You" is never a valid target for such a spell or power. Since the attack must do damage, you must do enough damage to overcome (or otherwise bypass) applicable DR - otherwise you DIDN'T do any damage. From there, most Spell/Power Resistance would apply, as the effect is directly targeted to the creature with SR/PR.

Actually a spell storing weapon does not have to be loaded with an offensive spell, so you can put a benificial spell into it and the same most likely applies to the psionic version. Also while you are required to deal damage, subdual damage counts so using this type of weapon for buffing purposes isnt so bad.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jow253 07-11-07, 07:03 PM	"Power Storing" is a +1 psionic weapon enhancement from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It allows "a single targeted power of up to 5 power points" to be stored in the enchanted weapon as a standard action. If the wielder strikes a creature and does damage, he can have the weapon "immediately manifest the power on that creature as a swift action if [he] desires." There are a large number of Psion buffs (like wizard buffs) that would be extremely useful to other classes, but that are restricted to the self. Most of these include attack bonus, ac, empathy type buffs. In the descriptions of many of these, it reads "target: you." Does that make it a targeted spell? If so, can it be put into a power storing weapon and given to an ally? I allowed it in my game. Although it is a text-lawyering situation, it's not a horrendously overpowered exploitation. Not to mention, it didn't help the psion at all (except for the satisfaction of smacking the fighter in the back of the head all he wanted - "it's good for you"). It was a party favoring ability that fostered teamwork (and flowers), in stark contrast to nova builds. energy retribution on the main fighter was always fun. anyways, would you allow this?
Mock26 07-11-07, 07:12 PM	I would take the description to mean that you store some sort of offensive power in the weapon and that is transferred to the target. It would only work for offensive powers that cause damage or "harm" the target in some way.
Colmarr 07-11-07, 10:11 PM	I don't have access to the Psionic Handbook and can't comment on your summary of the special ability, but assuming you have summarised the ability correctly, I would rule that the tactic is not valid. If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted. That quote is from the "Spell failure" section of the Magic chapter in the PHB. I'm not an expert on psionics (I've never used them) but I assume there is a similar quote in the psionics rules. In this case, the power is being targetted at another PC. Regardless of whether you consider the power to be manifested by the psion or the weapon, the target of the power is not the caster, and the characteristics of the power (namely "Target: You") cannot be met. Therefore, the casting fails and the power is lost from the weapon. Edit: If you disagree with that ruling (and I admit that there might be flaws in it if the psionic rules don't include the quoted text), remember that the weapon must deal damage to manifest the power, and there are no rules in RAW for lessening your damage (only for changing it to non-lethal).
Mock26 07-11-07, 10:32 PM	Edit: If you disagree with that ruling (and I admit that there might be flaws in it if the psionic rules don't include the quoted text), remember that the weapon must deal damage to manifest the power, and there are no rules in RAW for lessening your damage (only for changing it to non-lethal). But there are rules in the RAW for changing the rules. The DM could rule that you could poke someone lightly with a dagger and deal only 1 point of damage, or even to deal no damage even though it would be considered an attack and could transfer the psion "charge".
Colmarr 07-11-07, 10:34 PM	True :) The edit was more for the purposes of a DM who doesn't want to allow this use of the power but feels compelled to. or even to deal no damage even though it would be considered an attack. but don't forget that the power's text states that the attack must do damage to entitle the psion to manifest the power; which raises the question of DR and of course Spell Resistance (Power Resistance?) is also an issue.
Mock26 07-11-07, 10:37 PM	True :) The edit was more for the purposes of a DM who doesn't want to allow this use of the power but feels compelled to. I kind of like the idea of a psion-warrior standing there with an innocent look on his face while holding a glowing great sword in hand, saying to someone, "No, really, it won't kill you when I stab you with my sword. Well, it probably won't will you. But, it will allow me to transfer some of my psionic powers to you. If you live."
Colmarr 07-11-07, 10:51 PM	:D
DrMorganes 07-12-07, 06:42 PM	"Power Storing" is a +1 psionic weapon enhancement from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It allows "a single targeted power of up to 5 power points" to be stored in the enchanted weapon as a standard action. If the wielder strikes a creature and does damage, he can have the weapon "immediately manifest the power on that creature as a swift action if [he] desires." There are a large number of Psion buffs (like wizard buffs) that would be extremely useful to other classes, but that are restricted to the self. Most of these include attack bonus, ac, empathy type buffs. In the descriptions of many of these, it reads "target: you." Does that make it a targeted spell? If so, can it be put into a power storing weapon and given to an ally? I allowed it in my game. Although it is a text-lawyering situation, it's not a horrendously overpowered exploitation. Not to mention, it didn't help the psion at all (except for the satisfaction of smacking the fighter in the back of the head all he wanted - "it's good for you"). It was a party favoring ability that fostered teamwork (and flowers), in stark contrast to nova builds. energy retribution on the main fighter was always fun. anyways, would you allow this? This works exactly like a spell storing weapon. You're limited targeted offensive spells only. "You" is never a valid target for such a spell or power. Since the attack must do damage, you must do enough damage to overcome (or otherwise bypass) applicable DR - otherwise you DIDN'T do any damage. From there, most Spell/Power Resistance would apply, as the effect is directly targeted to the creature with SR/PR.
jow253 07-12-07, 08:28 PM	If DR was granted by something like adamantium armor, I think it would be safe to allow the PC to expose his neck or something uncovered by the armor to negate DR. Are players allowed to suppress their SR the same way they can voluntarily fail a will save? or are characters with SR hard to cure? It's clear that the enhancement was meant to be used for offensive/status ailment spells, but it doesn't say that in the description (for spell storing or power storing). That seems more like an assumption. I don't know about the argument for spell failure in the PHB. It seems more like you actually manifest the power into the weapon, then later the power "is manifest" a lot like from a wand. The only restriction it puts on the power is that it must be 5pp or less and must be a targeted spell. I hate to be equivocative, but self buffs are targeted spells (even if the target is you, it says "target" in the spell description). I like to stir things.
Myzery78 07-13-07, 09:37 PM	This works exactly like a spell storing weapon. You're limited targeted offensive spells only. "You" is never a valid target for such a spell or power. Since the attack must do damage, you must do enough damage to overcome (or otherwise bypass) applicable DR - otherwise you DIDN'T do any damage. From there, most Spell/Power Resistance would apply, as the effect is directly targeted to the creature with SR/PR. Actually a spell storing weapon does not have to be loaded with an offensive spell, so you can put a benificial spell into it and the same most likely applies to the psionic version. Also while you are required to deal damage, subdual damage counts so using this type of weapon for buffing purposes isnt so bad.