Animal companion mounts, the ride skill, and crack. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animal companion mounts, the ride skill, and crack. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
im_robertb
02-25-07, 11:55 PM Problem: The rules on mounted combat. They're scattered about, contradictory, vague, and a DM headache. One of my PCs, a gnome druid (level 3), rides around on his riding dog animal companion.

Now I know how to enforce the limit on action while your mount is moving. This is not my problem. My problem is the ride skill, and in particular, cover. A natural 1 on a skill check is not an automatic failure; thus, this character can succeed on a DC 10 check 100% of the time, and always guides with his knees and fights with his mount. Not a problem.

He effectively gains the benefits of feats like Shot on the Run sometimes. Moving forward 10 feet on his mount, making a ranged attack, moving back 10 feet. Should I impose the -4 penalty on ranged attacks for a moving mount, even though there's enough time in the round for the mount to move 10 feet, sit around for 3 seconds, and move another 10 feet?

The worst part is taking cover behind the mount. A DC 15 ride check lets you gain a +4 cover bonus to AC by hiding behind your mount. You can do this not only as a free action, but as a reaction, when it's not your turn. It really bothered me when a creature just barely hit his AC, and then he decided to use cover, citing that it can be done 'as a reaction'. Anyone else see the brokenation? Having Mounted Combat makes it annoying to kill the mount, and he'd just get a new one anyway.

Reading the FAQ says that the cover action should be done before the opponent makes his attack roll. I think it's still too good - a DC 15 skill check for +4 AC, once per round? I don't think so.

In the war of him trying to break the game to his advantage and my not letting him, I need help. Here's the fix I've devised:

The cover use of the Ride skill is being clarified/altered to work as follows: You must decide to use it –before- your enemies make their attack rolls, and once you have decided to use it, they may decide to attack your mount instead of you. It can be done as an immediate action (a free action that you can take when it is not your turn, and you can only take 1 immediate action per round – meaning you can only take cover behind your mount against 1 opponent per round.) Also, the rider must have at least 1 hand free to use the cover ability.

Make a DC 15 Ride check. In case of failure, make a DC 20 Ride check to which Armor Check Penalty applies to avoid falling off your mount and being prone. Success on the DC 15 check provides the rider with the following benefits and penalties against one opponent for the duration of its action:

1. The rider gains a +4 cover bonus to AC. The mount is denied its dexterity bonus to AC, since it is much more difficult to dodge while a rider is hanging off the side of it. Also, the feat Mounted Combat cannot be used while a rider is taking cover behind his mount - it doesn't make much sense to be simultaneously hiding behind your mount and controlling it to evade attacks.

2. Any attacks targeted at the rider that miss due to cover (basically, if it missed by 4 or less) can strike the mount. If the attack roll misses due to cover and is high enough to hit the mount’s (now flat-footed) AC, it hits the mount and deals damage.

Thoughts? Anyone know of a particular part of some book that I don't know about that actually explains, and explains well, the rules on mounted combat? (I've read the Rules of the Game articles, and cover is still massively broken)
weasel0
02-26-07, 12:08 AM You could rule that the total which misses by the +4 AC given by cover, if enough to hit the cover itself, does so. So he goes to hide behind his mount, the attacker will now hit the mount instead.
Someone
02-26-07, 01:08 AM A few points:

First, guide with knees is supposed to be easy- its like riding a bike. A bike with a mind of its own, while people are trying to hit you.

Second, he can't use his mount for Shot on the Run unless he has Shot on the Run. Strange as it might seem, he would still be limited to firing either before or after the mount moves (the rationalization being he doesn't have the timing).

If the player keeps using the mount for cover, you could rule that a miss by 4 or less could hit the mount instead. Or, opponents could start going for the mount first.
ciryx2k
02-26-07, 01:46 AM Also, if the mount gets hit: Instant handle animal check to keep the animal from freaking out because of the pain. Animals, even animal companions, are afraid of pain and instinctively run from it. Remember, while arcane casters have full control of their familiars, druids and rangers DO NOT have control over their animal companion. The companion is just that, an animal that the character has a bond of friendship with, but it's still an animal. In the case of an animal companion, I would allow the handle animal check to be reflexive due to the bond the two share.
Shatteredtower
02-26-07, 04:06 AM First, keep in mind that a rider can't gain cover against attacks coming from both sides at once. You might rule this works as long as the animal keeps spinning about, but this is a fairly unusual trick (which should count as pushing the mount) and is unlikely to be possible until the turn after your mount completed a charge or run action. You also have to decide whether or not someone that can safely tumble through the mount's space would be able to ignore the cover with a successful Tumble check, even if your PC was spinning his mount around.

Second, is a person hanging from the side of a mount truly mounted? If you feel this is not the case, you're within your rights to insist that the character can't attack from the mount's back until he has mounted again. This would make the issue of taking cover behind your mount a bit less certain up until the character had +19 on Ride checks (assuming no armor check penalty). The loss of a move action on a failed check might not seem like much, since the character will only be able to make a single attack from the back of a moving mount anyway, but it does make those rounds in which the mount must be pushed or the Ride check itself requires an action, and it's very inconvenient to mounted archers or anyone using a crossbow (even with the Rapid Reload feat). It's also not much fun if you were hoping to hold your position and make a full attack.

Third, enemies can ready actions to attack once the rider emerges from cover. This leaves the player with a bit of a problem, since if he wishes to both move away and retain his cover, he'll be unable to attack or cast spells while doing so. If he manages to regain his seat once he's safely out of reach of waiting attackers, he might argue that he's now free to take a standard action to either attack or cast a spell. That will depend on whether or not you consider the results of this action to apply until the start of your next turn. If so, there's no problem. If not, the character could drop to take cover, spur the mount to charge, rise to make a single attack with a lance, then drop to cover again while riding away. All the more reason for some of your enemies to ready actions against you or to target your mount.

Fourth, it is not that difficult to trip a riding dog, which in turn dismounts the rider. Bolas and whips are a real treat for this purpose, but they're not required. Nets are another option -- they can't be used to trip the target, but entangliing it does prevent attempts to charge (neutralizing Ride-By Attack) and may limit the mount's ability to flee. By the rules, the net would only secure the mount, not the rider, but this may be enough of a convenience.

Tripping, grappling, or entangling the rider are lesser options (especially since the rider may attempt a Ride check in lieu of a Strength or Dexterity check to remain mounted after a trip attempt), but they should also be considered. For one thing, the rider's inability to make attacks also rules out attacks of opportunity. It might not prohibit attempts to trip the one who tried to trip you, however; that seems to me more a consequence of a failed trip attempt, not an attack. (Other DMs may rule otherwise.)
Marcus Majarra
02-27-07, 11:53 PM Here are some answers:

1) The gnome druid is not enjoying any kind of Shot on the Run by virtue of his mount, since Shot on the Run involves moving of one's own volition. Effectively, he gets much better, as both he and his mount are entitled to their own actions, with the only limit being on the rider's melee attacks (which occurs only when the mount moves more than 5 feet). Thus, the gnome could very well make a full attack with a ranged weapon. The penalty on the attack roll depends on what kind of movement the mount is making. If his mount moves up to its speed only, the rider takes no penalty on his ranged attack rolls. If the mount makes a double move, there's a -4 penalty on the attack. If the mount is running, the penalty becomes -8. Attacks have to take place before, between, or after the mount's actions.

2) Using Ride to get cover from your mount is a good way to get a +4 bonus to AC, but keep in mind that the rider is no longer riding at that point, since he's dropped from the mount. It doesn't take an action and can be made in reaction to an opponent's attack. Nothing, however, indicates that you're entitled to know the result of the attack before deciding to use the mount for cover. The rider occuppies the nearest available space, but only after being subjected to the attack (even if the nearest available space is not a valid target for the attacker).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
im_robertb 02-25-07, 11:55 PM	Problem: The rules on mounted combat. They're scattered about, contradictory, vague, and a DM headache. One of my PCs, a gnome druid (level 3), rides around on his riding dog animal companion. Now I know how to enforce the limit on action while your mount is moving. This is not my problem. My problem is the ride skill, and in particular, cover. A natural 1 on a skill check is not an automatic failure; thus, this character can succeed on a DC 10 check 100% of the time, and always guides with his knees and fights with his mount. Not a problem. He effectively gains the benefits of feats like Shot on the Run sometimes. Moving forward 10 feet on his mount, making a ranged attack, moving back 10 feet. Should I impose the -4 penalty on ranged attacks for a moving mount, even though there's enough time in the round for the mount to move 10 feet, sit around for 3 seconds, and move another 10 feet? The worst part is taking cover behind the mount. A DC 15 ride check lets you gain a +4 cover bonus to AC by hiding behind your mount. You can do this not only as a free action, but as a reaction, when it's not your turn. It really bothered me when a creature just barely hit his AC, and then he decided to use cover, citing that it can be done 'as a reaction'. Anyone else see the brokenation? Having Mounted Combat makes it annoying to kill the mount, and he'd just get a new one anyway. Reading the FAQ says that the cover action should be done before the opponent makes his attack roll. I think it's still too good - a DC 15 skill check for +4 AC, once per round? I don't think so. In the war of him trying to break the game to his advantage and my not letting him, I need help. Here's the fix I've devised: The cover use of the Ride skill is being clarified/altered to work as follows: You must decide to use it –before- your enemies make their attack rolls, and once you have decided to use it, they may decide to attack your mount instead of you. It can be done as an immediate action (a free action that you can take when it is not your turn, and you can only take 1 immediate action per round – meaning you can only take cover behind your mount against 1 opponent per round.) Also, the rider must have at least 1 hand free to use the cover ability. Make a DC 15 Ride check. In case of failure, make a DC 20 Ride check to which Armor Check Penalty applies to avoid falling off your mount and being prone. Success on the DC 15 check provides the rider with the following benefits and penalties against one opponent for the duration of its action: 1. The rider gains a +4 cover bonus to AC. The mount is denied its dexterity bonus to AC, since it is much more difficult to dodge while a rider is hanging off the side of it. Also, the feat Mounted Combat cannot be used while a rider is taking cover behind his mount - it doesn't make much sense to be simultaneously hiding behind your mount and controlling it to evade attacks. 2. Any attacks targeted at the rider that miss due to cover (basically, if it missed by 4 or less) can strike the mount. If the attack roll misses due to cover and is high enough to hit the mount’s (now flat-footed) AC, it hits the mount and deals damage. Thoughts? Anyone know of a particular part of some book that I don't know about that actually explains, and explains well, the rules on mounted combat? (I've read the Rules of the Game articles, and cover is still massively broken)
weasel0 02-26-07, 12:08 AM	You could rule that the total which misses by the +4 AC given by cover, if enough to hit the cover itself, does so. So he goes to hide behind his mount, the attacker will now hit the mount instead.
Someone 02-26-07, 01:08 AM	A few points: First, guide with knees is supposed to be easy- its like riding a bike. A bike with a mind of its own, while people are trying to hit you. Second, he can't use his mount for Shot on the Run unless he has Shot on the Run. Strange as it might seem, he would still be limited to firing either before or after the mount moves (the rationalization being he doesn't have the timing). If the player keeps using the mount for cover, you could rule that a miss by 4 or less could hit the mount instead. Or, opponents could start going for the mount first.
ciryx2k 02-26-07, 01:46 AM	Also, if the mount gets hit: Instant handle animal check to keep the animal from freaking out because of the pain. Animals, even animal companions, are afraid of pain and instinctively run from it. Remember, while arcane casters have full control of their familiars, druids and rangers DO NOT have control over their animal companion. The companion is just that, an animal that the character has a bond of friendship with, but it's still an animal. In the case of an animal companion, I would allow the handle animal check to be reflexive due to the bond the two share.
Shatteredtower 02-26-07, 04:06 AM	First, keep in mind that a rider can't gain cover against attacks coming from both sides at once. You might rule this works as long as the animal keeps spinning about, but this is a fairly unusual trick (which should count as pushing the mount) and is unlikely to be possible until the turn after your mount completed a charge or run action. You also have to decide whether or not someone that can safely tumble through the mount's space would be able to ignore the cover with a successful Tumble check, even if your PC was spinning his mount around. Second, is a person hanging from the side of a mount truly mounted? If you feel this is not the case, you're within your rights to insist that the character can't attack from the mount's back until he has mounted again. This would make the issue of taking cover behind your mount a bit less certain up until the character had +19 on Ride checks (assuming no armor check penalty). The loss of a move action on a failed check might not seem like much, since the character will only be able to make a single attack from the back of a moving mount anyway, but it does make those rounds in which the mount must be pushed or the Ride check itself requires an action, and it's very inconvenient to mounted archers or anyone using a crossbow (even with the Rapid Reload feat). It's also not much fun if you were hoping to hold your position and make a full attack. Third, enemies can ready actions to attack once the rider emerges from cover. This leaves the player with a bit of a problem, since if he wishes to both move away and retain his cover, he'll be unable to attack or cast spells while doing so. If he manages to regain his seat once he's safely out of reach of waiting attackers, he might argue that he's now free to take a standard action to either attack or cast a spell. That will depend on whether or not you consider the results of this action to apply until the start of your next turn. If so, there's no problem. If not, the character could drop to take cover, spur the mount to charge, rise to make a single attack with a lance, then drop to cover again while riding away. All the more reason for some of your enemies to ready actions against you or to target your mount. Fourth, it is not that difficult to trip a riding dog, which in turn dismounts the rider. Bolas and whips are a real treat for this purpose, but they're not required. Nets are another option -- they can't be used to trip the target, but entangliing it does prevent attempts to charge (neutralizing Ride-By Attack) and may limit the mount's ability to flee. By the rules, the net would only secure the mount, not the rider, but this may be enough of a convenience. Tripping, grappling, or entangling the rider are lesser options (especially since the rider may attempt a Ride check in lieu of a Strength or Dexterity check to remain mounted after a trip attempt), but they should also be considered. For one thing, the rider's inability to make attacks also rules out attacks of opportunity. It might not prohibit attempts to trip the one who tried to trip you, however; that seems to me more a consequence of a failed trip attempt, not an attack. (Other DMs may rule otherwise.)
Marcus Majarra 02-27-07, 11:53 PM	Here are some answers: 1) The gnome druid is not enjoying any kind of Shot on the Run by virtue of his mount, since Shot on the Run involves moving of one's own volition. Effectively, he gets much better, as both he and his mount are entitled to their own actions, with the only limit being on the rider's melee attacks (which occurs only when the mount moves more than 5 feet). Thus, the gnome could very well make a full attack with a ranged weapon. The penalty on the attack roll depends on what kind of movement the mount is making. If his mount moves up to its speed only, the rider takes no penalty on his ranged attack rolls. If the mount makes a double move, there's a -4 penalty on the attack. If the mount is running, the penalty becomes -8. Attacks have to take place before, between, or after the mount's actions. 2) Using Ride to get cover from your mount is a good way to get a +4 bonus to AC, but keep in mind that the rider is no longer riding at that point, since he's dropped from the mount. It doesn't take an action and can be made in reaction to an opponent's attack. Nothing, however, indicates that you're entitled to know the result of the attack before deciding to use the mount for cover. The rider occuppies the nearest available space, but only after being subjected to the attack (even if the nearest available space is not a valid target for the attacker).