AoO vs invisible opponents? [Archive] - Wizards Community

AoO vs invisible opponents? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FriendoftheDork
03-06-07, 09:18 AM I've come to the point in my game where this matters alot. Of course, there is no issue when the invisible character can be detected by see invis, blindsight, tremorsense.

And when the subject is not detected at all (spot, listen scent), there is of course no AoO.

Situations I wonder about:
1. Enemy has blindsense (auto detect but still 50% miss chance)

2. Enemy has scent and invisible char is within 5' (auto detect, miss chance applies)

3. Enemy makes a spot check DC 20+char hide check)

4. Enemy makes spot check as above, and succeeds by 10

5. As above, but succeeds by 20.

6. Enemy makes listen check, detects invisible character.

7. As above, but succeeds by 10 or 20.

So far, I've ruled that you CAN make an AoO if you sense that the target provokes you. Thus, if you hear someone moving out of your threatened square well enough to pinpoint them, you can make an AoO, but still with 50% miss chance.
ciryx2k
03-06-07, 11:26 AM 1. Enemy has blindsense (auto detect but still 50% miss chance)

I'd give the an AoO since they can "see" the person.

2. Enemy has scent and invisible char is within 5' (auto detect, miss chance applies)

Tough in this case. They can't "see" the person, but they can smell them. I'd do this on a case by case basis. Examples: Yes to AoO for moving from a threatened square. No to AoO for a trip attempt. Basically, if just smelling the person would let you know what's provoking the AoO then you get it. Smelling someone doesn't tell you their fixing to trip you.

3. Enemy makes a spot check DC 20+char hide check)

Nope, this basically just gives them a sense that you're there, something like seeing the dust on the floor disturbed in two foot shaped areas that are moving around. I'd so no AoOs at all.

4. Enemy makes spot check as above, and succeeds by 10

This one is a tough call because at this point, you're talking about superhuman spot checks. A decent stealth rogue is going to have a hide check of [CL+5] or there abouts, so a lvl 10 rogue with invisibility is going to have a +35 on that hide check. Let's just use 10 for an average, that's a DC 45 to just notice he's there and a 55 to beat that 10 that means someone with 35 ranks in spot would have to roll a 20 to do this, that would put the spotter having to be around level 30. I'd probably treat success by 10 as actually seeing the person and allow AoOs.
5. As above, but succeeds by 20.

Taking what I said above, beating a hide check by 20 would be insane, so again, AoOs fully allowed.

6. Enemy makes listen check, detects invisible character.

No AoOs due to inability to see the person and react properly.

7. As above, but succeeds by 10 or 20.

Well, invisibilty doesn't help sound, so hitting these is MUCH easier. I'd treat these two similar to scent I think. They can make some AoOs but not all. If it requires acting to arm movements and such, no. If they can here the person starting to move away, then yes.
calvinNhobbes
03-06-07, 11:56 AM Ah, the old "if a tree provokes an AOO in the forest and no one is there to attack does the tree really provoke".
It really depends on how you think about an AOO. Does the target do something specific that you recognize and you think, "Hey I should get to attack them". Or is it that you are always attacking them and when they provoke an AOO they have dropped their guard in some way.
I personally think it is best to think about it the later since results in fewer clashes between game rules and reality.
Example, if a wizard casts an silent, stilled spell with eschew materials, how do you "know" they are casting a spell and therefore entitled to an AOO. Realistically you don't. It makes more sense that you are constantly trying to swing at the wizard who is bobbing and weaving, but then stops to concentrate on the spell, allowing you the AOO.
The same applies to the invisible opponent. As long as you have narrowed down a square, you can swing at the invisible target. If the invisible target does something to drop their guard, you'll know when you hit something.

In conclusion, I believe they provoke as normal as long as you know which square they are in.
EDIT: Ignore that, Merestil Hayes found the ruling, although I think the analysis still stands for other cases like the given example.
Merestil Haye
03-06-07, 12:17 PM You get no AoO against an invisible opponent, no matter where they are or what they do.You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.Hope that settles the argument.
calvinNhobbes
03-06-07, 01:13 PM Thanks Merestil Haye,

I knew that was the case with cover, wasn't sure with concealment. Ignore the last part of my previous post. :embarrass
ryryguy
03-06-07, 04:52 PM Note, no AoO vs. total concealment. You can still take an AoO against a target with ordinary concealment.

Also, blindsight pretty much negates invisibility - an invisible target does not get any concealment at all against a character with blindsight. The character with blindsight does not have a miss chance and may make AoO's against the invisible target.

Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature...
calvinNhobbes
03-06-07, 06:26 PM Note, no AoO vs. total concealment. You can still take an AoO against a target with ordinary concealment.

Good point. I personally find it a little inconsistent that partial cover negates AOOs, but partial concealment does not.
FriendoftheDork
03-06-07, 06:29 PM OK thanks guys, this really clarifies everything. Although I think you make sense ciryx, the official ruling is clear, concise and simple to adjucate.

Thus blindsense, scent and tremorsense would not give you AoOs? Not sure if tremorsense makes you suffer miss chance, if it doesen't then invisibility is irrelevant.
Marcus Majarra
03-07-07, 01:38 AM If you cannot see your target (seeing requires to be able to see the character normally, low-light vision, darkvision, or blindsight, depending on conditions), you cannot make an AoO against the target. Total concealment is basically the result of not being able to see your opponent, which is why you're not entitled to AoOs against opponents with total concealment.

And no, neither scent, nor tremorsense, nor blindsense allow you to see your target. They merely allow you to locate it.
FriendoftheDork
03-07-07, 09:16 PM If you cannot see your target (seeing requires to be able to see the character normally, low-light vision, darkvision, or blindsight, depending on conditions), you cannot make an AoO against the target. Total concealment is basically the result of not being able to see your opponent, which is why you're not entitled to AoOs against opponents with total concealment.

And no, neither scent, nor tremorsense, nor blindsense allow you to see your target. They merely allow you to locate it.

k.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FriendoftheDork 03-06-07, 09:18 AM	I've come to the point in my game where this matters alot. Of course, there is no issue when the invisible character can be detected by see invis, blindsight, tremorsense. And when the subject is not detected at all (spot, listen scent), there is of course no AoO. Situations I wonder about: 1. Enemy has blindsense (auto detect but still 50% miss chance) 2. Enemy has scent and invisible char is within 5' (auto detect, miss chance applies) 3. Enemy makes a spot check DC 20+char hide check) 4. Enemy makes spot check as above, and succeeds by 10 5. As above, but succeeds by 20. 6. Enemy makes listen check, detects invisible character. 7. As above, but succeeds by 10 or 20. So far, I've ruled that you CAN make an AoO if you sense that the target provokes you. Thus, if you hear someone moving out of your threatened square well enough to pinpoint them, you can make an AoO, but still with 50% miss chance.
ciryx2k 03-06-07, 11:26 AM	1. Enemy has blindsense (auto detect but still 50% miss chance) I'd give the an AoO since they can "see" the person. 2. Enemy has scent and invisible char is within 5' (auto detect, miss chance applies) Tough in this case. They can't "see" the person, but they can smell them. I'd do this on a case by case basis. Examples: Yes to AoO for moving from a threatened square. No to AoO for a trip attempt. Basically, if just smelling the person would let you know what's provoking the AoO then you get it. Smelling someone doesn't tell you their fixing to trip you. 3. Enemy makes a spot check DC 20+char hide check) Nope, this basically just gives them a sense that you're there, something like seeing the dust on the floor disturbed in two foot shaped areas that are moving around. I'd so no AoOs at all. 4. Enemy makes spot check as above, and succeeds by 10 This one is a tough call because at this point, you're talking about superhuman spot checks. A decent stealth rogue is going to have a hide check of [CL+5] or there abouts, so a lvl 10 rogue with invisibility is going to have a +35 on that hide check. Let's just use 10 for an average, that's a DC 45 to just notice he's there and a 55 to beat that 10 that means someone with 35 ranks in spot would have to roll a 20 to do this, that would put the spotter having to be around level 30. I'd probably treat success by 10 as actually seeing the person and allow AoOs. 5. As above, but succeeds by 20. Taking what I said above, beating a hide check by 20 would be insane, so again, AoOs fully allowed. 6. Enemy makes listen check, detects invisible character. No AoOs due to inability to see the person and react properly. 7. As above, but succeeds by 10 or 20. Well, invisibilty doesn't help sound, so hitting these is MUCH easier. I'd treat these two similar to scent I think. They can make some AoOs but not all. If it requires acting to arm movements and such, no. If they can here the person starting to move away, then yes.
calvinNhobbes 03-06-07, 11:56 AM	Ah, the old "if a tree provokes an AOO in the forest and no one is there to attack does the tree really provoke". It really depends on how you think about an AOO. Does the target do something specific that you recognize and you think, "Hey I should get to attack them". Or is it that you are always attacking them and when they provoke an AOO they have dropped their guard in some way. I personally think it is best to think about it the later since results in fewer clashes between game rules and reality. Example, if a wizard casts an silent, stilled spell with eschew materials, how do you "know" they are casting a spell and therefore entitled to an AOO. Realistically you don't. It makes more sense that you are constantly trying to swing at the wizard who is bobbing and weaving, but then stops to concentrate on the spell, allowing you the AOO. The same applies to the invisible opponent. As long as you have narrowed down a square, you can swing at the invisible target. If the invisible target does something to drop their guard, you'll know when you hit something. In conclusion, I believe they provoke as normal as long as you know which square they are in. EDIT: Ignore that, Merestil Hayes found the ruling, although I think the analysis still stands for other cases like the given example.
Merestil Haye 03-06-07, 12:17 PM	You get no AoO against an invisible opponent, no matter where they are or what they do.You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.Hope that settles the argument.
calvinNhobbes 03-06-07, 01:13 PM	Thanks Merestil Haye, I knew that was the case with cover, wasn't sure with concealment. Ignore the last part of my previous post. :embarrass
ryryguy 03-06-07, 04:52 PM	Note, no AoO vs. total concealment. You can still take an AoO against a target with ordinary concealment. Also, blindsight pretty much negates invisibility - an invisible target does not get any concealment at all against a character with blindsight. The character with blindsight does not have a miss chance and may make AoO's against the invisible target. Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature...
calvinNhobbes 03-06-07, 06:26 PM	Note, no AoO vs. total concealment. You can still take an AoO against a target with ordinary concealment. Good point. I personally find it a little inconsistent that partial cover negates AOOs, but partial concealment does not.
FriendoftheDork 03-06-07, 06:29 PM	OK thanks guys, this really clarifies everything. Although I think you make sense ciryx, the official ruling is clear, concise and simple to adjucate. Thus blindsense, scent and tremorsense would not give you AoOs? Not sure if tremorsense makes you suffer miss chance, if it doesen't then invisibility is irrelevant.
Marcus Majarra 03-07-07, 01:38 AM	If you cannot see your target (seeing requires to be able to see the character normally, low-light vision, darkvision, or blindsight, depending on conditions), you cannot make an AoO against the target. Total concealment is basically the result of not being able to see your opponent, which is why you're not entitled to AoOs against opponents with total concealment. And no, neither scent, nor tremorsense, nor blindsense allow you to see your target. They merely allow you to locate it.
FriendoftheDork 03-07-07, 09:16 PM	If you cannot see your target (seeing requires to be able to see the character normally, low-light vision, darkvision, or blindsight, depending on conditions), you cannot make an AoO against the target. Total concealment is basically the result of not being able to see your opponent, which is why you're not entitled to AoOs against opponents with total concealment. And no, neither scent, nor tremorsense, nor blindsense allow you to see your target. They merely allow you to locate it. k.