Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sunic_Flames 06-16-07, 10:54 AM	Let's say, a character is capable of casting arcane spells. They find a scroll of a spell they can cast, except the scroll is divine. Are they able to use it normally, or is it considered UMD etc bait?
Thubby 06-16-07, 11:02 AM	arcane cant use divine scrolls. divine cant use arcane scrolls. (this is why bards have UMD) i could get you a page if you realy want.
Kouk 06-17-07, 11:41 AM	There is a distinction between the spells, depending on Arcane or Divine. It is not an uncommon house rule however, to just let the "origin" of a spell scroll slide and let anyone with that spell on their list be able to utilize it fully (like NWN, yes). Sometimes players can get uppity if you keep giving them magic items they can't use, whether intentionally or randomly.
Thubby 06-17-07, 09:45 PM	There is a distinction between the spells, depending on Arcane or Divine. It is not an uncommon house rule however, to just let the "origin" of a spell scroll slide and let anyone with that spell on their list be able to utilize it fully (like NWN, yes). Sometimes players can get uppity if you keep giving them magic items they can't use, whether intentionally or randomly. the only problem i see with that is the spell levels. some spells are higher level in 1 class than another, so with that rule, a caster can "cheat" his way to using spells he otherwise cant. if you houserule that away, you still have lower cost, and lower DCs
Kouk 06-18-07, 01:30 AM	the only problem i see with that is the spell levels. some spells are higher level in 1 class than another, so with that rule, a caster can "cheat" his way to using spells he otherwise cant. if you houserule that away, you still have lower cost, and lower DCs I'm not sure I understand. What I mean is, if you have a Scroll of a spell that a Cleric could normally cast at level 4, but a Wizard could cast at level 5 (I am just making this up now), then using the scroll may or may not be subject to a CL check to succeed depending on the one who plans on using it. If you happen to be a multiclass Wizard/Cleric (rare) I guess there might be a bit of an issue but not that much. When crafting your own scrolls, you just make it at the level you are personally capable of making it at. My disregarding the arcane or divine origin is only for items found as loot. If they sell the scroll, I usually just use the Arcane pricing structure.
Thubby 06-18-07, 02:02 AM	but what about buying a scroll? a wizard could buy a spell that the cleric casts at a lower level, then save money at the expense of dc, range, and duration, and in some spells, that doesnt matter. (short version, they could buy the scroll at a lower than normaly physicaly possible price, with little or no consequence)
Nom 06-18-07, 02:41 AM	but what about buying a scroll? a wizard could buy a spell that the cleric casts at a lower level, then save money at the expense of dc, range, and duration, and in some spells, that doesnt matter. (short version, they could buy the scroll at a lower than normaly physicaly possible price, with little or no consequence)Heck, wizards can do this already with some bard spells. Or divine casters with other divine casters (rangers and resist elements comes to mind). However, if they were intending to make a habit of it, they mostly should invest in wands and/or staffs, which do ignore the arcane/divine distinction. Staffs also apply caster level and save DCs based on the user, which avoids the usual problem of using scrolls or wands for anything other than utility spells.
Kouk 06-18-07, 06:35 AM	but what about buying a scroll? a wizard could buy a spell that the cleric casts at a lower level, then save money at the expense of dc, range, and duration, and in some spells, that doesnt matter. (short version, they could buy the scroll at a lower than normaly physicaly possible price, with little or no consequence) Like I said, my rule is only on found items. If a wizard player wants to buy a cleric scroll to save money, he will end up with a cleric scroll that he can't use without UMD. If a wizard pens a scroll himself, and wants to share it with the cleric, I probably would allow that too. The Spell Level of a spell rarely matters except when you are preparing it in a slot. Caster Level determines almost everything about a spell's function. In any case an item like that is fixed at creation, with fixed DCs and effects, so they aren't really getting a one-up on me for anything. I can't think of any examples, but if you can give me some spells that would be affected by such a ruling, maybe I would reconsider. My goal was to incorporate a widely (perhaps thanks to NWN) held misconception that the origin of the scroll doesn't matter, with a way to not have to hear "Divine Scrolls? What the hell are we going to do with these?" or "Damnit, if this was an Arcane Scroll, I could put it in my book!". The distinction is usually lost on players except when it inconveniences them, and I have not seen a severe (or any, really) balance issue with it yet.
Kouk 06-18-07, 06:56 AM	Also, I have never encountered nor heard about a DM who says "You find an Arcane Scroll of..." or "A Divine Scroll of...", just "You find a scroll of..." and I similarly have never found a player to think to ask about the origins.
Leilond 06-18-07, 07:01 AM	Also, I have never encountered nor heard about a DM who says "You find an Arcane Scroll of..." or "A Divine Scroll of...", just "You find a scroll of..." and I similarly have never found a player to think to ask about the origins. I always say "You find a scroll" Then if the players can understand the scroll (with read magic or spellcraft for example) I say "it is a divine scroll of.." Always It's part of the game. A "cleric divine cure light wounds" is completely different from a "bard arcane cure light wounds"... The first gained his power froma a god or the like, while the second use a "natural" knowing of magic. They're completely differe, nearly two different spells at all. I like a lot playing that issue
Kouk 06-18-07, 07:17 AM	I like a lot playing that issue Great :D
CryoSilver 06-18-07, 07:54 AM	RAW, arcane and divine scrolls of the same spell are not interchangeable, but it isn't really game-breaking to make them so.
Leilond 06-18-07, 08:09 AM	RAW, arcane and divine scrolls of the same spell are not interchangeable, but it isn't really game-breaking to make them so. Agree. Not game-breaking... but why do it? I think you lose part of the fun... by the way, if you don't like it, go with it ;)
CryoSilver 06-18-07, 08:48 AM	Agree. Not game-breaking... but why do it? I don't; I was just stating that it wouldn't be game-breaking.