Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crowclub 04-24-07, 11:52 AM	Can an Archivist use Wands containing spells in their Prayerbook? For example, one could learn (from a Scroll) Splinterbolt (a Druid spell, similar to Scorching Ray) and prepare Splinterbolts, but how about casting them from a Wand? I think Wand casting is easier than casting from a Scroll (see Use Magic Device for conformation) so it would make perfect sense to be able to cast any Divine spell in your Prayerbook in Wand format?
Merestil Haye 04-24-07, 12:19 PM	Can an Archivist use Wands containing spells in their Prayerbook? For example, one could learn (from a Scroll) Splinterbolt (a Druid spell, similar to Scorching Ray) and prepare Splinterbolts, but how about casting them from a Wand? I think Wand casting is easier than casting from a Scroll (see Use Magic Device for conformation) so it would make perfect sense to be able to cast any Divine spell in your Prayerbook in Wand format?The only requirement for using a wand is that the spell be on the character's class spell list. The arcane/divine divide does not apply to wands. If the character can learn the spell from a scroll or other source, then it is on his class spell list. The character can certainly use wands (or other spell trigger devices such as staffs) containing spells that are already in his prayerbook.
crowclub 04-24-07, 01:09 PM	The Archivist doesn't have a defined spell list. It has to choose Cleric spells as it's free ones as it levels but can then add other classes spells to it's prayerbook via scrolls. I'm not disagreeing, just trying to justify the way I see it.
tos_shai_hulud 04-24-07, 02:28 PM	The archivist spell list is ANY divine spell. If the wand is a divine wand, he may use it. If it is not divine, he requires a Use Magic Device check to use it.
Evil DM Mk3 04-24-07, 02:39 PM	Whilst the above post is true for most practical purposes of course it is cleric spells. druidic and other divine class scrolls tend to roll round infrequently.
Merestil Haye 04-24-07, 02:41 PM	The Archivist doesn't have a defined spell list. It has to choose Cleric spells as it's free ones as it levels but can then add other classes spells to it's prayerbook via scrolls. I'm not disagreeing, just trying to justify the way I see it.I'd suggest that the best way to proceed is to allow the archivist to use any spell trigger device a cleric could use (disregarding domain spells) plus any spell the archivist has learned.
tos_shai_hulud 04-24-07, 02:51 PM	I suggest the best way to handle it is if the wand is divine, the archivist can use it. If the wand is arcane, the archivist cannot. He has the ability to learn any divine spell, so his spell list includes all divine spells.
Evil DM Mk3 04-24-07, 03:00 PM	..... There is no such thing as an arcane wand
tos_shai_hulud 04-24-07, 03:12 PM	..... There is no such thing as an arcane wand True enough. All wands are usable by Archivists, then. Edit: It may require a spellcraft check (DC equal to the DC to place the spell into your spellbook) to use a wand that is not on the cleric spell list and not in your prayerbook, as once you succeed on understanding the magic, it is on your spell list.
Evil DM Mk3 04-24-07, 04:17 PM	But there is no way in Batoor that, say fireball, would end up in their book! So how are they doing it?
tos_shai_hulud 04-24-07, 04:27 PM	But there is no way in Batoor that, say fireball, would end up in their book! So how are they doing it? All that is required is for a domain to contain Fireball. Perhaps the evocation domain would possess Fireball. Or maybe the Azer domain. Some domain out there could easily possess any spell. Since the archivist can learn any divine spell, he can use any wand.
Evil DM Mk3 04-24-07, 05:20 PM	So now archivists can learn all spells, cause you say so. That makes no sence! AT ALL!
tos_shai_hulud 04-24-07, 06:27 PM	So now archivists can learn all spells, cause you say so. That makes no sence! AT ALL! Lol, what is a domain spell? It is a divine spell. What happens if a domain spell is scribed as a scroll? It is a divine spell. What happens if an archivist finds the divine scroll? He can scribe it into his prayerbook. What is required for the archivist to scribe that spell in his prayerbook? A spellcraft check. What are the limitations for domain spells? None. Any spell has the potential of being a domain spell somewhere. Any magic could be cast as a divine spell, so long as it is a domain spell. There are constantly new books coming out with more domains. Each race has their own domain list. Many of those spells are usually considered to be arcane only, but because it is on a domain list somewhere, it can be cast as divine, which is completely within the purview of the archivist. Is it true because I am saying so? No. It is true because that is what an archivist does.
Evil DM Mk3 04-24-07, 07:24 PM	You assume that every spell is on a domain somewhere. They arent in game.
tos_shai_hulud 04-24-07, 07:38 PM	Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. Would you find it inappropriate if Azers had the Azer domain (much like Drow have the Drow domain, Gnomes have the Gnome domain, etc.)? Would you find it inappropriate for the Azer domain to possess Fireball? The fact that domains can possess any spells and turn them into divine spells is rather open-ended. If you started playing with only Heroes of Horror and the Player's Handbook, you would be surprised to find what else is on an archivist's spell list when you get Complete Divine. What about the Spell Compendium? It makes sense to either limit it the spell list to select sources, and say that if other sources become available, they cannot be used for this campaign, or you say that theoretically, it is possible that any spell exist as a divine spell. Because of that, the archivist could learn any spell as a divine spell (either by finding a scroll or through research). Either way works fine. In general, in view of the books already published and those to come, the latter solution is more robust. While it does interpret the rules rather loosely, it is by no means wrong or nonsensical. While I would not argue with a DM who decided to limit the spell list, I see no reason to do so. I do not think that it is overpowering for the archivist to be able to use any wand they find, nor do I think it is outside the realm of the rules.
crowclub 04-25-07, 06:26 PM	Firstly, the sane option is to ban domain spells from Archivist use. This goes a long way to keeping the class balanced. Balance is what makes D&D good, fun and worth playing. Secondly, where does it say that no wands are arcane?
tos_shai_hulud 04-25-07, 06:39 PM	Firstly, the sane option is to ban domain spells from Archivist use. This goes a long way to keeping the class balanced. Balance is what makes D&D good, fun and worth playing. Secondly, where does it say that no wands are arcane? I disagree that the class becomes unbalanced when adding domain spells for Archivist use. As a divine caster with a wizard allotment of spells, his damage is far below what a wizard can do, his healing is far below what a cleric can do, his summoning is equal to either, perhaps, but that is one of the few areas where he matches up. Adding domain spells will not increase his ability in the arena of summoning. His main benefit is his versitility. He has the potential to know any spell for any situation. That seems to be the basic idea behind the class. Now, having the ability to use any wand he picks up is a great benefit, but by no means overpowered. Now, he must spend all of his effort finding or crafting wands. Unless your campaign setting is overburdened with wands, you are going to find that rather difficult. He becomes the back-up everything. He is a backup healer, a backup blaster, a backup summoner, a backup--you name it. His main benefit to the party is his versitility and his Dark Knowledge. He gives bonuses to the party members who are front-liners. That is where he is balanced. Having the ability to use any wand he finds just gives him something to do during a battle (having played an archivist, I know how tricky they can be to make worthwhile at all). Having any spell available to be placed in their prayerbook is no joyous task, either. You must find a scroll of the spell you are looking for, and it MUST be a divine scroll. If they find an arcane scroll of Cure Moderate Wounds (on the Bard spell list), they cannot add it to their prayerbook, even though it is part of their base list of spells. Only 30% of all scrolls found will be divine. What percentage of that will be domain? Very small. That means that if an archivist wants a spell, he must find a caster who possesses the spell he desires as a domain spell, convince him to scribe a scroll of it, then scribe it into his prayerbook. And that is unbalanced? I certainly don't see it. An alternative to coersing someone into scribing their domain spells would be researching the spells on his own. This might be easier, or it might be harder, than coersion. Let's use Fireball as an example. First thing the DM should do is determine who would have it as a domain spell. I mentioned Azers, so lets use that. To research it, the archivist may need to contact the Elemental Plane of Fire, and ask an Azer's assistance. With yes or no questions, perhaps he can find the name of a tome which would contain the construct for it. Perhaps it would even require a trek to the elemental plane of fire to discover the prayers that the Azers perform. With those prayers, the archivist can begin research (experimentation that costs 1,000gp/week). The DM can figure out how long it would take the player to learn fireball, and all of that time is downtime. If the rest of the party decides to move on, no Fireball for the archivist. It is much easier for a wizard to learn fireball. He simply goes to the nearest wizard's library and lo and behold, he has fireball.
Evil DM Mk3 04-25-07, 07:11 PM	Besides if you remove domain spells you end up with, for example, no acess to holy smite.
crowclub 04-29-07, 06:13 AM	I disagree that the class becomes unbalanced when adding domain spells for Archivist use. As a divine caster with a wizard allotment of spells, his damage is far below what a wizard can do, his healing is far below what a cleric can do, his summoning is equal to either, perhaps, but that is one of the few areas where he matches up. Adding domain spells will not increase his ability in the arena of summoning. His main benefit is his versitility. He has the potential to know any spell for any situation. That seems to be the basic idea behind the class. Now, having the ability to use any wand he picks up is a great benefit, but by no means overpowered. Now, he must spend all of his effort finding or crafting wands. Unless your campaign setting is overburdened with wands, you are going to find that rather difficult. He becomes the back-up everything. He is a backup healer, a backup blaster, a backup summoner, a backup--you name it. His main benefit to the party is his versitility and his Dark Knowledge. He gives bonuses to the party members who are front-liners. That is where he is balanced. Having the ability to use any wand he finds just gives him something to do during a battle (having played an archivist, I know how tricky they can be to make worthwhile at all). Having any spell available to be placed in their prayerbook is no joyous task, either. You must find a scroll of the spell you are looking for, and it MUST be a divine scroll. If they find an arcane scroll of Cure Moderate Wounds (on the Bard spell list), they cannot add it to their prayerbook, even though it is part of their base list of spells. Only 30% of all scrolls found will be divine. What percentage of that will be domain? Very small. That means that if an archivist wants a spell, he must find a caster who possesses the spell he desires as a domain spell, convince him to scribe a scroll of it, then scribe it into his prayerbook. And that is unbalanced? I certainly don't see it. An alternative to coersing someone into scribing their domain spells would be researching the spells on his own. This might be easier, or it might be harder, than coersion. Let's use Fireball as an example. First thing the DM should do is determine who would have it as a domain spell. I mentioned Azers, so lets use that. To research it, the archivist may need to contact the Elemental Plane of Fire, and ask an Azer's assistance. With yes or no questions, perhaps he can find the name of a tome which would contain the construct for it. Perhaps it would even require a trek to the elemental plane of fire to discover the prayers that the Azers perform. With those prayers, the archivist can begin research (experimentation that costs 1,000gp/week). The DM can figure out how long it would take the player to learn fireball, and all of that time is downtime. If the rest of the party decides to move on, no Fireball for the archivist. It is much easier for a wizard to learn fireball. He simply goes to the nearest wizard's library and lo and behold, he has fireball. The fact that you can cast any spell from Cleric, Druid, Ranger & Paladin spell list make the class very strong. Now, if you want to include Adept's in that list, you're even stronger. Adding the ability to cast all the best Arcane spells from Domain list is just Cheese. It's not reqired to make the class compete with others at all IMO.
tos_shai_hulud 04-29-07, 06:50 AM	The fact that you can cast any spell from Cleric, Druid, Ranger & Paladin spell list make the class very strong. Now, if you want to include Adept's in that list, you're even stronger. Adding the ability to cast all the best Arcane spells from Domain list is just Cheese. It's not reqired to make the class compete with others at all IMO. Fair enough. As I already mentioned, I find it to be quite balanced in the game I am playing. I also have an achivist player in a game I DM, and I treat it the same way. It works well. No one is overpowered or "Cheese" as you call it. If it doesn't work in your game, don't use it. Treat wands however you want. By the RAW, I would say either way is acceptable, although I would tend to lean towards allowing domain spells (as they are divine, thus putting them on the archivist spell list). I would imagine that in some errata or FAQ they might clarify this eventually. Since I have not had any trouble with domain spells as part of the archivist spell list, and I allow an archivist to use any wand without any check, I will probably continue to do so, even if the designers designate that it should be otherwise.
Evil DM Mk3 04-29-07, 06:56 AM	For the purposes of wands ect I treat it a bit like advanced learning, they can activate any cleric spell and any other spell they have access to, as in is in thier book (and so they ahve studied it thouroughly).
crowclub 04-29-07, 06:17 PM	For the purposes of wands ect I treat it a bit like advanced learning, they can activate any cleric spell and any other spell they have access to, as in is in thier book (and so they ahve studied it thouroughly). Yeah, I'm happy with that too. I don't want to go down the Domain route purely based on the fact that in my eyes the Archivist is the complete Divine caster, and I choose to define Divine as spells on Divine caster lists only, as in lists in all allowed books and not from additional sources like Domains. However, there are no rules that say Domain spells are not allowed and therefore using them is, as tos_shai_hulud stated, down to the DM.