Are you your own ally? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are you your own ally? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Drag0nUL
02-15-08, 10:22 AM I have recently come across the following issue: have recently got my hands on the Spell Compendium, and noticed that there are quite a few spells that affect 'allies'.
Still, I was unable to find anywhere in the rulebooks a definition of what exactly 'ally' means in-game.
More specifically, the problem I am worried about is: does the caster of a spell that affects allies benefit from its effects?

P.S. I am not sure, but I think I saw something about this in Sage Advice a while ago. Haven't been able to track it down, though.

Any help greatly appreciated.
runestar
02-15-08, 10:32 AM The sage ruled that you are not your own ally for purposes of resolving white raven tactics maneuver from tome of battle (meaning that you cannot use it on yourself to gain a free turn).

However, the bard's inspire courage ability has the following clause...

A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities.

which suggests that you should count as your own ally.

In short, I have no idea whatsoever, though I would rule yes (but watch out for special cases, such as white raven tactics).
toucanbuzz
02-15-08, 11:00 AM Technically allies are anyone around you that are favorable to you and does not include yourself, but almost every ally spell includes language like "you and your allies" or in the area description "the caster and all allies." Obviously the writers intend there to be a difference, and it mainly applies to bards inspiring others.

If we read the bard songs further, some do not include "himself", such as inspiring allies to perform tasks under "Inspire Confidence", but they do include himself for "Inspire Greatness." There's also a "Noble" class in Dragonlance rules that can use his people skills to "Inspire" others to do better at tasks but he cannot inspire himself with the same language (split personality pep talk?)

My conclusion: if it doesn't include the caster in the description, the caster is not an ally.
mtbOgre
02-15-08, 04:34 PM I have recently come across the following issue: have recently got my hands on the Spell Compendium, and noticed that there are quite a few spells that affect 'allies'.
Still, I was unable to find anywhere in the rulebooks a definition of what exactly 'ally' means in-game.
More specifically, the problem I am worried about is: does the caster of a spell that affects allies benefit from its effects?

P.S. I am not sure, but I think I saw something about this in Sage Advice a while ago. Haven't been able to track it down, though.

Any help greatly appreciated.

I'm glad someone else asked this question because I've been wondering exactly the same thing. For some of the spells it makes sense to apply one way and for some the other.

My conclusion: if it doesn't include the caster in the description, the caster is not an ally.
I'm inclined to agree with this even though it is kind of frustrating in some cases.
mvincent
02-18-08, 01:13 PM I was unable to find anywhere in the rulebooks a definition of what exactly 'ally' means in-game.From the glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ally&alpha=A):
"ally
A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself."

Note: in rules-lawyerese, "in most cases" means "unless indicated otherwise". The intent of the white-raven tactic evidently indicated otherwise, but this is not the standard.
JaronK
02-19-08, 01:58 AM You are part of allies, but you cannot target yourself with an effect that can only target "an ally." Funny that way, but that's the rules ATM.

JaronK
mvincent
02-19-08, 11:30 AM you cannot target yourself with an effect that can only target "an ally."What do you have to support that statement?
JaronK
02-19-08, 05:04 PM What do you have to support that statement?

Yes, it was talking about ToB (specifically, White Raven Tactics). Either Skip's discussion or official errata, I don't remember which, but I know the subject was White Raven Tactics (which is completely broken if you can target yourself as "an ally").

JaronK
mvincent
02-19-08, 05:26 PM Yes, it was talking about ToB (specifically, White Raven Tactics). Either Skip's discussion or official errata, I don't remember which, but I know the subject was White Raven Tactics (which is completely broken if you can target yourself as "an ally").I addressed this earlier.

The 3.5 FAQ says:
"Can you use white raven tactics (Tome of Battle, page
94) on yourself to gain another turn right after your
current initiative score?
No. White Raven Tactics doesn’t work on the initiator
himself."

This does not rescind the D&D glossary statement of "In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself."

Indeed, the FAQ entry technically does not even mention the word ally, and is intended specifically for the white raven tactics maneuver (which was not perfectly written).
JaronK
02-19-08, 08:13 PM The check's Skip's discussion of it. At one point when talking about that manuever he does say that "ally" can't be you, but "allies" includes you.

JaronK
mvincent
02-19-08, 08:28 PM The check's Skip's discussion of it. At one point when talking about that manuever he does say that "ally" can't be you, but "allies" includes you.What discussion are you talking about? Can you be more specific on what you are referencing?

I have quoted the full answer from the FAQ, and Skip Williams did not appeared to be involved in writing Tome of Battle, nor has he been acting as Sage since it's release.
JaronK
02-19-08, 08:38 PM Where? Can you be more specific on what you are referencing? I have quoted the full answer from the FAQ, and Skip Williams did not appeared to be involved in writing Tome of Battle, nor has he been acting as Sage since it's release.

Honestly, I'm not sure where. All I know is, I've seen an official source that was talking about White Raven Tactics and said that.

JaronK
Toki_Wartooth
02-19-08, 08:51 PM Honestly, I'm not sure where. All I know is, I've seen an official source that was talking about White Raven Tactics and said that.Not saying you're wrong, but I see an official, verifiable source in this thread saying otherwise, which trumps a memory.

My own memory has recalled a *lot* of stuff that I thought was official that instead turned out to be merely a recollection of something someone said in a rules thread. I also have no idea why Skip Williams would be talking about it.
mvincent
02-19-08, 08:53 PM Honestly, I'm not sure where. All I know is, I've seen an official source that was talking about White Raven Tactics and said that.I'm trying to help you out, and my search-fu is usually pretty good in this area, but I've found nothing in regard to what you're alluding to.
JaronK
02-19-08, 10:03 PM Heh, looking around, I've seen other people referencing the same errata, but now I can't find the original either. So, take it with a grain of salt, I guess.

JaronK
Drag0nUL
02-20-08, 07:35 AM Thank you all for your answers. That glossary entry really clears up things a lot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drag0nUL 02-15-08, 10:22 AM	I have recently come across the following issue: have recently got my hands on the Spell Compendium, and noticed that there are quite a few spells that affect 'allies'. Still, I was unable to find anywhere in the rulebooks a definition of what exactly 'ally' means in-game. More specifically, the problem I am worried about is: does the caster of a spell that affects allies benefit from its effects? P.S. I am not sure, but I think I saw something about this in Sage Advice a while ago. Haven't been able to track it down, though. Any help greatly appreciated.
runestar 02-15-08, 10:32 AM	The sage ruled that you are not your own ally for purposes of resolving white raven tactics maneuver from tome of battle (meaning that you cannot use it on yourself to gain a free turn). However, the bard's inspire courage ability has the following clause... A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. which suggests that you should count as your own ally. In short, I have no idea whatsoever, though I would rule yes (but watch out for special cases, such as white raven tactics).
toucanbuzz 02-15-08, 11:00 AM	Technically allies are anyone around you that are favorable to you and does not include yourself, but almost every ally spell includes language like "you and your allies" or in the area description "the caster and all allies." Obviously the writers intend there to be a difference, and it mainly applies to bards inspiring others. If we read the bard songs further, some do not include "himself", such as inspiring allies to perform tasks under "Inspire Confidence", but they do include himself for "Inspire Greatness." There's also a "Noble" class in Dragonlance rules that can use his people skills to "Inspire" others to do better at tasks but he cannot inspire himself with the same language (split personality pep talk?) My conclusion: if it doesn't include the caster in the description, the caster is not an ally.
mtbOgre 02-15-08, 04:34 PM	I have recently come across the following issue: have recently got my hands on the Spell Compendium, and noticed that there are quite a few spells that affect 'allies'. Still, I was unable to find anywhere in the rulebooks a definition of what exactly 'ally' means in-game. More specifically, the problem I am worried about is: does the caster of a spell that affects allies benefit from its effects? P.S. I am not sure, but I think I saw something about this in Sage Advice a while ago. Haven't been able to track it down, though. Any help greatly appreciated. I'm glad someone else asked this question because I've been wondering exactly the same thing. For some of the spells it makes sense to apply one way and for some the other. My conclusion: if it doesn't include the caster in the description, the caster is not an ally. I'm inclined to agree with this even though it is kind of frustrating in some cases.
mvincent 02-18-08, 01:13 PM	I was unable to find anywhere in the rulebooks a definition of what exactly 'ally' means in-game.From the glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ally&alpha=A): "ally A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself." Note: in rules-lawyerese, "in most cases" means "unless indicated otherwise". The intent of the white-raven tactic evidently indicated otherwise, but this is not the standard.
JaronK 02-19-08, 01:58 AM	You are part of allies, but you cannot target yourself with an effect that can only target "an ally." Funny that way, but that's the rules ATM. JaronK
mvincent 02-19-08, 11:30 AM	you cannot target yourself with an effect that can only target "an ally."What do you have to support that statement?
JaronK 02-19-08, 05:04 PM	What do you have to support that statement? Yes, it was talking about ToB (specifically, White Raven Tactics). Either Skip's discussion or official errata, I don't remember which, but I know the subject was White Raven Tactics (which is completely broken if you can target yourself as "an ally"). JaronK
mvincent 02-19-08, 05:26 PM	Yes, it was talking about ToB (specifically, White Raven Tactics). Either Skip's discussion or official errata, I don't remember which, but I know the subject was White Raven Tactics (which is completely broken if you can target yourself as "an ally").I addressed this earlier. The 3.5 FAQ says: "Can you use white raven tactics (Tome of Battle, page 94) on yourself to gain another turn right after your current initiative score? No. White Raven Tactics doesn’t work on the initiator himself." This does not rescind the D&D glossary statement of "In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself." Indeed, the FAQ entry technically does not even mention the word ally, and is intended specifically for the white raven tactics maneuver (which was not perfectly written).
JaronK 02-19-08, 08:13 PM	The check's Skip's discussion of it. At one point when talking about that manuever he does say that "ally" can't be you, but "allies" includes you. JaronK
mvincent 02-19-08, 08:28 PM	The check's Skip's discussion of it. At one point when talking about that manuever he does say that "ally" can't be you, but "allies" includes you.What discussion are you talking about? Can you be more specific on what you are referencing? I have quoted the full answer from the FAQ, and Skip Williams did not appeared to be involved in writing Tome of Battle, nor has he been acting as Sage since it's release.
JaronK 02-19-08, 08:38 PM	Where? Can you be more specific on what you are referencing? I have quoted the full answer from the FAQ, and Skip Williams did not appeared to be involved in writing Tome of Battle, nor has he been acting as Sage since it's release. Honestly, I'm not sure where. All I know is, I've seen an official source that was talking about White Raven Tactics and said that. JaronK
Toki_Wartooth 02-19-08, 08:51 PM	Honestly, I'm not sure where. All I know is, I've seen an official source that was talking about White Raven Tactics and said that.Not saying you're wrong, but I see an official, verifiable source in this thread saying otherwise, which trumps a memory. My own memory has recalled a lot of stuff that I thought was official that instead turned out to be merely a recollection of something someone said in a rules thread. I also have no idea why Skip Williams would be talking about it.
mvincent 02-19-08, 08:53 PM	Honestly, I'm not sure where. All I know is, I've seen an official source that was talking about White Raven Tactics and said that.I'm trying to help you out, and my search-fu is usually pretty good in this area, but I've found nothing in regard to what you're alluding to.
JaronK 02-19-08, 10:03 PM	Heh, looking around, I've seen other people referencing the same errata, but now I can't find the original either. So, take it with a grain of salt, I guess. JaronK
Drag0nUL 02-20-08, 07:35 AM	Thank you all for your answers. That glossary entry really clears up things a lot.