Argument about exp [Archive] - Wizards Community

Argument about exp [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tonsofun64
06-04-07, 04:24 PM In a game last night, our party of 5 lvl2 characters and 1 lvl3 character defeated a gigantic group of enemies that our DM said we shouldnt win, but thanks to his own horrible rolling, we did. our group managed to kill one character with a CR 2 and 57 Skeletons at CR 1/3. The EL calculators we looked up placed this at EL 9. First, are there any disagreements on that? We were arguing back and forth to the point where we parted company with the goal of figuring out what to do. Trying to figure out XP came out to be 1050/character, but what should the EL modifier be? The DM guide doesnt factor in battles that we probably shouldnt win. if an encounter is twice as hard it's XPx2, so should this be XPx3 or what? The DM running it is a longtime player but first time DM and was running the campaign pretty well until we hit this snag. Hopefully you guys can help.
lears_fool
06-04-07, 04:49 PM I think the biggest problem is when players pull out the ECL calculators and use them to justify their experience. :behold:

Author's note: that last smiley didn't necessarily reflect my opinions, I just thought it looked neat

Wizards did a very good job of generally balancing in a 'pokemon battle' sort of way competitions between characters and monsters. .and they deserve credit for that especially considering how genuinely hard that is. It's most useful for helping easily put together encounters that hopefully won't be too easy and won't result in a party wipe.

But if it's being looked at as a rule for doling out experience rather than a guideline then you're missing the whole POINT of adventuring to gain experience and advancement as a reward for effort.

You can get 'all I have to do is kill twenty-seven more shambling skeletons and I can wear this shiny new codpiece! I'll just stick to this tactic that works every time and do it repeatedly' in an online RPG. The DM's there to take you past that and ease the motivation (and reward) for that and to take you to a point where you're rewarded for clever tactics, teamwork, and generally being awesome and helping the game be a good experience for everyone.
Cromag
06-04-07, 04:50 PM well if you go by the HTML SRD calculator at

http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm

Your party's ECL is 3.4

if you look at page 38 of the DMG it is listed as conceivable to beat that. (CR11 would be considered too high). And to tell the truth, if you had one or two clerics that would probably be a very easy fight.

I would let your DM know that the party faced the enemy and won, lucky or not doesn't matter, after all next game he could just have easily rolled a lot of crits and killed off the party.

As far as experience rewards that is up to him as everything in the game is "suggested strongly", but can be over-ruled by the DM.

The main thing that I would say though is this; If he is not willing to allow the group to benefit when they beat an opponent (or group of opponents) then he should not put place them in the game world to be fought.

Overcoming a danger should be rewarded, not ignored, that's the basis of the experience system.
olshanski_home
06-04-07, 04:54 PM For starters, EL has nothing to do with experience.
EL is a tool that is used by the DM to determine how dangerous an encounter level is. Only CR is used to determine experience.

Second: things get out of whack for determining EL whenever you have more than about 8 of a creature. A group of 100 medium size zombies at CR 1/2 zombies is not a threat to a 3rd level fighter with boots of flying and a reach weapon.

Third:
For the encounter you describe: 57 skeletons at CR1/3, and 1 CR2 NPC: The XP for each person is exactly 1050 XP. It might be a wise idea to cap the skeleton XP at 16 skeletons, since the XP tables are not designed for huge mobs, and this kind of encounter is not really worth as much XP as the straight rules would indicate. If you cap it at 16 skeletons than the XP is worth 367 each.

Fourth: you ask "what should the EL modifier be? The DM guide doesnt factor in battles that we probably shouldnt win. if an encounter is twice as hard it's XPx2" This doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons. First: EL has nothing to do with XP. It sounds like you are talking about a conditional modifier to XP based on environment or othe things that make an encouter significantly harder than normal. A large number of enemies is not a conditional modifier (although I would say that a mob of 57 skeletons is much easier than taking them on separately over the course of many hours).

Conditional modifiers apply when the PCs are at a distinct disadvantage due to other factors: If the encoutner happens while the PCs are sleeping, then it might be worth additional XP. If the enemies are fortified behind arrow slits then it might be worth additional XP. If a boss mage showed up 10 minutes before the party, and then cast "Bull's Strength" and "Bear's Endurance" and "Invisibility" on all of the bad guys, and then the boss mage left before the party arrived... then those remaining bad guys might be worth conditional XP. If the party needed to fight an opponent with tremorsense in an area in a magically dark and silent area, then the encounter might be worth some conditional XP.
On the other side: If the bad guys were drunk and suffered -2 morale bonus on attack rolls, skill checks, and damage, then there would be a conditional modifier giving the party less experience.

The sheer number of opponents is NOT a conditional modifier... nor is the EL a conditional modifier.
Some_call_me_Tim
06-04-07, 04:59 PM In a game last night, our party of 5 lvl2 characters and 1 lvl3 character defeated a gigantic group of enemies that our DM said we shouldnt win, but thanks to his own horrible rolling, we did. our group managed to kill one character with a CR 2 and 57 Skeletons at CR 1/3. The EL calculators we looked up placed this at EL 9. First, are there any disagreements on that? We were arguing back and forth to the point where we parted company with the goal of figuring out what to do. Trying to figure out XP came out to be 1050/character, but what should the EL modifier be? The DM guide doesnt factor in battles that we probably shouldnt win. if an encounter is twice as hard it's XPx2, so should this be XPx3 or what? The DM running it is a longtime player but first time DM and was running the campaign pretty well until we hit this snag. Hopefully you guys can help.
By the numbers those sound right. Of course awarding xp and calculating CR is not an exact science.

Lots and Lots of low-CR baddies may result in a high EL even though they are not that tough (no DR, no SR, no special abilities). Note that there isn't even a column for looking up an EL directly for more than 12 creatures.

You should definitely get xp for defeating the group. I get 1260 each (100xp per skeleton (300xp per CR1 creature) plus 600xp for the CR 2 bad guy, divided by five.

The DM is free to adjust that. You shouldn't necessarily get extra xp just because they were in a big group. Those xp adjustments are for if they are harder to fight because of terrain, situation, or other factor not already accounted for. You already get 57 skeletons worth of xp, you should not automatically get a bigger reward just because you fought them all at once verses 19 encounters against just three each time.

Depending on the circumstance it could conceivably be easier to defeat them as a large group (limited turns/day, fireball or other area spells).

I don't know what the DM expected you to do (run, get captured, negotiate, die) but he should have had some xp reward associated with the encounter. He could just reward that instead. This solves the problem with players who just try and defeat all encounters by killing everything, because they get more xp that way.

I would probably just award you all 1260xp for the things you killed and get on with gaming.
StoneStokes
06-04-07, 05:01 PM Okay, here's my take on it.

The XP table and EL table in the DMG are not designed to handle more than about 10 creatures of a given type. 57 skeletons far exceeds this.

With that in mind, 57 skeletons really aren't much more difficult than about EL 5. Less if they are being fought indoors, where the PCs can take tactical advantage of choke points.

My estimate using the XP table would be about 400 XP per character, less if indoors.

Alternatively, because this encounter is non-standard (due to number of creatures), the DM could use the Free-Form variant method suggested in the DMG (see p. 39, textbox). Using this variant, I would estimate the XP award at 325 XP per character.

In summary, the XP calculators are great for most encounters, but some don't fit the mold.

Edit: Oops, I forgot to account for the fact that you have 6 PCs instead of 4. In that case, I would recommend a reward somewhere around 250 XP per character.
Marcus Majarra
06-04-07, 05:03 PM No more experience should be awarded than normal. The reason for this is simple:

Your argument is based around the level of the encounter relative to party level to gauge the reward, where it's only logical that monster CRs should be taken into account. Luck (good or bad) shouldn't factor in. Perhaps your DM was unlucky in this encounter, but he might get lots of lucky shots in what would otherwise be an easy encounter, so it balances out in the end. In any case, the only instances in which the overall difficulty of the encounter should play a factor in the reward is when it comes to DMs who have a habit of supplying a low number of encounters per day. For example, a single EL3 encounter will deplete a 3rd-level party's resources by 25%, on average. By the time you've gone through your fourth EL3 encounter without rest, you'll be out of resources. Now, if instead of facing multiple EL3 encounters, the same party faced a single EL7 encounter, odds are that this single encounter will take a lot out of the party. The end result is the same, your party needs rest. The overall rewards should be the same as well. Easy encounters require little investments and provide a challenge proportionate to these small investments. A more difficult encounter will require higher investments and will also provide a challenge proportionate to these large investments.

Now, if both an EL3 and an EL9 can be overcome with the same kind of effort, then the DM is playing something wrong or is coming across a nasty streak of bad luck.
Murrdox
06-04-07, 05:11 PM As previous posters have pointed out, determining the EL has nothing to do with experience rewards. EL is just a tool for the GM.

Also, this encounter would never be an EL of 9. A level 9 party would wipe the floor with this encounter without breaking a sweat. Even though there are an excessive amount of creatures, they are all too weak to do anything to harm a level 9 character, let alone a full party of them.

I'd peg this at an EL of about 4.

You calculate experience based on CR.

A Skeleton is 1/3 challenge rating, making 1 skeleton worth 100 XP to your party.

The CR 2 creature is worth 600 XP.

(57 x 100 + 600) / 6 Party members = 1050

So that's about 1050 experience for each party member.

Considering the amount of skeletons you had to deal with... I'd say that's a fair reward. That encounter is worth several smaller ones all rolled into one.

The only thing I wonder about is how did your party overcome this encounter? 57 is a lot of skeletons for a level 2 party to deal with... even if you have 3 Clerics in the group. Were the odds stacked in your favor somehow?

If the encounter was built in such a way that the characters had some kind of advantage... for example the skeletons were weaker than normal, or the encounter took place in a hallway where only 1 or 2 skeletons could attack at any given time....

Then I'd say the DM should lower the CR of the skeletons a bit, maybe to 1/4 or 1/5.

Otherwise, if you just faced off a hoard of skeletons in a straight up fight, and used good party tactics, spells, and spent a lot of the party's resources doing it... I'd give you the full 1050 experience and say "Job well done".
Neutronium_Dragon
06-04-07, 05:40 PM > Otherwise, if you just faced off a hoard of skeletons in a straight up fight,
> and used good party tactics, spells, and spent a lot of the party's resources
> doing it... I'd give you the full 1050 experience and say "Job well done".

Ditto.

I will also point out that the CR/EL system is geared around the expectation that you'll have four encounters of that level, not just one, and that your resources will be spread out across all four.

If you're "going nova" and blowing all of your resources on a single fight then you'll be able to beat a larger group of opponents than you'd be able to handle if you were doing it four times over. I'd assume that your level 2 party, by the time the fight was done, *had* used up all or nearly all of its spells, expendable items, uses/day of other items, HPs, and so on. If so then exactly what should have happened did happen in that encounter.
Mystic Lemur
06-04-07, 11:26 PM Alright. First I peg the EL at about 6. Sure, four level six PC's could wipe the floor with 57 skeletons, but there is the mob aspect to consider. I do find it hard to see how your group didn't get overwhelmed, but you managed it somehow, or you wouldn't be asking us about XP.
Even though you have a PC one level higher than the rest of the party, he still falls into that 1st-3rd sweet spot where it is all the same. Therefore the skeletons are worth 100XP each and the CR2 baddie is worth 600XP. That gives you 6300XP/6PC's = 1050XP/PC as you already stated in your OP. You do not scale XP for the DM having a "bad night". If that were true, dragons would be worth near infinite XP because few DM's can truly play the effectively.

The DMG does say that the DM can refuse to grant XP if the encounter should not have possibly been beaten, but the example it uses is fighting gods, not skeletons...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tonsofun64 06-04-07, 04:24 PM	In a game last night, our party of 5 lvl2 characters and 1 lvl3 character defeated a gigantic group of enemies that our DM said we shouldnt win, but thanks to his own horrible rolling, we did. our group managed to kill one character with a CR 2 and 57 Skeletons at CR 1/3. The EL calculators we looked up placed this at EL 9. First, are there any disagreements on that? We were arguing back and forth to the point where we parted company with the goal of figuring out what to do. Trying to figure out XP came out to be 1050/character, but what should the EL modifier be? The DM guide doesnt factor in battles that we probably shouldnt win. if an encounter is twice as hard it's XPx2, so should this be XPx3 or what? The DM running it is a longtime player but first time DM and was running the campaign pretty well until we hit this snag. Hopefully you guys can help.
lears_fool 06-04-07, 04:49 PM	I think the biggest problem is when players pull out the ECL calculators and use them to justify their experience. :behold: Author's note: that last smiley didn't necessarily reflect my opinions, I just thought it looked neat Wizards did a very good job of generally balancing in a 'pokemon battle' sort of way competitions between characters and monsters. .and they deserve credit for that especially considering how genuinely hard that is. It's most useful for helping easily put together encounters that hopefully won't be too easy and won't result in a party wipe. But if it's being looked at as a rule for doling out experience rather than a guideline then you're missing the whole POINT of adventuring to gain experience and advancement as a reward for effort. You can get 'all I have to do is kill twenty-seven more shambling skeletons and I can wear this shiny new codpiece! I'll just stick to this tactic that works every time and do it repeatedly' in an online RPG. The DM's there to take you past that and ease the motivation (and reward) for that and to take you to a point where you're rewarded for clever tactics, teamwork, and generally being awesome and helping the game be a good experience for everyone.
Cromag 06-04-07, 04:50 PM	well if you go by the HTML SRD calculator at http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm Your party's ECL is 3.4 if you look at page 38 of the DMG it is listed as conceivable to beat that. (CR11 would be considered too high). And to tell the truth, if you had one or two clerics that would probably be a very easy fight. I would let your DM know that the party faced the enemy and won, lucky or not doesn't matter, after all next game he could just have easily rolled a lot of crits and killed off the party. As far as experience rewards that is up to him as everything in the game is "suggested strongly", but can be over-ruled by the DM. The main thing that I would say though is this; If he is not willing to allow the group to benefit when they beat an opponent (or group of opponents) then he should not put place them in the game world to be fought. Overcoming a danger should be rewarded, not ignored, that's the basis of the experience system.
olshanski_home 06-04-07, 04:54 PM	For starters, EL has nothing to do with experience. EL is a tool that is used by the DM to determine how dangerous an encounter level is. Only CR is used to determine experience. Second: things get out of whack for determining EL whenever you have more than about 8 of a creature. A group of 100 medium size zombies at CR 1/2 zombies is not a threat to a 3rd level fighter with boots of flying and a reach weapon. Third: For the encounter you describe: 57 skeletons at CR1/3, and 1 CR2 NPC: The XP for each person is exactly 1050 XP. It might be a wise idea to cap the skeleton XP at 16 skeletons, since the XP tables are not designed for huge mobs, and this kind of encounter is not really worth as much XP as the straight rules would indicate. If you cap it at 16 skeletons than the XP is worth 367 each. Fourth: you ask "what should the EL modifier be? The DM guide doesnt factor in battles that we probably shouldnt win. if an encounter is twice as hard it's XPx2" This doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons. First: EL has nothing to do with XP. It sounds like you are talking about a conditional modifier to XP based on environment or othe things that make an encouter significantly harder than normal. A large number of enemies is not a conditional modifier (although I would say that a mob of 57 skeletons is much easier than taking them on separately over the course of many hours). Conditional modifiers apply when the PCs are at a distinct disadvantage due to other factors: If the encoutner happens while the PCs are sleeping, then it might be worth additional XP. If the enemies are fortified behind arrow slits then it might be worth additional XP. If a boss mage showed up 10 minutes before the party, and then cast "Bull's Strength" and "Bear's Endurance" and "Invisibility" on all of the bad guys, and then the boss mage left before the party arrived... then those remaining bad guys might be worth conditional XP. If the party needed to fight an opponent with tremorsense in an area in a magically dark and silent area, then the encounter might be worth some conditional XP. On the other side: If the bad guys were drunk and suffered -2 morale bonus on attack rolls, skill checks, and damage, then there would be a conditional modifier giving the party less experience. The sheer number of opponents is NOT a conditional modifier... nor is the EL a conditional modifier.
Some_call_me_Tim 06-04-07, 04:59 PM	In a game last night, our party of 5 lvl2 characters and 1 lvl3 character defeated a gigantic group of enemies that our DM said we shouldnt win, but thanks to his own horrible rolling, we did. our group managed to kill one character with a CR 2 and 57 Skeletons at CR 1/3. The EL calculators we looked up placed this at EL 9. First, are there any disagreements on that? We were arguing back and forth to the point where we parted company with the goal of figuring out what to do. Trying to figure out XP came out to be 1050/character, but what should the EL modifier be? The DM guide doesnt factor in battles that we probably shouldnt win. if an encounter is twice as hard it's XPx2, so should this be XPx3 or what? The DM running it is a longtime player but first time DM and was running the campaign pretty well until we hit this snag. Hopefully you guys can help. By the numbers those sound right. Of course awarding xp and calculating CR is not an exact science. Lots and Lots of low-CR baddies may result in a high EL even though they are not that tough (no DR, no SR, no special abilities). Note that there isn't even a column for looking up an EL directly for more than 12 creatures. You should definitely get xp for defeating the group. I get 1260 each (100xp per skeleton (300xp per CR1 creature) plus 600xp for the CR 2 bad guy, divided by five. The DM is free to adjust that. You shouldn't necessarily get extra xp just because they were in a big group. Those xp adjustments are for if they are harder to fight because of terrain, situation, or other factor not already accounted for. You already get 57 skeletons worth of xp, you should not automatically get a bigger reward just because you fought them all at once verses 19 encounters against just three each time. Depending on the circumstance it could conceivably be easier to defeat them as a large group (limited turns/day, fireball or other area spells). I don't know what the DM expected you to do (run, get captured, negotiate, die) but he should have had some xp reward associated with the encounter. He could just reward that instead. This solves the problem with players who just try and defeat all encounters by killing everything, because they get more xp that way. I would probably just award you all 1260xp for the things you killed and get on with gaming.
StoneStokes 06-04-07, 05:01 PM	Okay, here's my take on it. The XP table and EL table in the DMG are not designed to handle more than about 10 creatures of a given type. 57 skeletons far exceeds this. With that in mind, 57 skeletons really aren't much more difficult than about EL 5. Less if they are being fought indoors, where the PCs can take tactical advantage of choke points. My estimate using the XP table would be about 400 XP per character, less if indoors. Alternatively, because this encounter is non-standard (due to number of creatures), the DM could use the Free-Form variant method suggested in the DMG (see p. 39, textbox). Using this variant, I would estimate the XP award at 325 XP per character. In summary, the XP calculators are great for most encounters, but some don't fit the mold. Edit: Oops, I forgot to account for the fact that you have 6 PCs instead of 4. In that case, I would recommend a reward somewhere around 250 XP per character.
Marcus Majarra 06-04-07, 05:03 PM	No more experience should be awarded than normal. The reason for this is simple: Your argument is based around the level of the encounter relative to party level to gauge the reward, where it's only logical that monster CRs should be taken into account. Luck (good or bad) shouldn't factor in. Perhaps your DM was unlucky in this encounter, but he might get lots of lucky shots in what would otherwise be an easy encounter, so it balances out in the end. In any case, the only instances in which the overall difficulty of the encounter should play a factor in the reward is when it comes to DMs who have a habit of supplying a low number of encounters per day. For example, a single EL3 encounter will deplete a 3rd-level party's resources by 25%, on average. By the time you've gone through your fourth EL3 encounter without rest, you'll be out of resources. Now, if instead of facing multiple EL3 encounters, the same party faced a single EL7 encounter, odds are that this single encounter will take a lot out of the party. The end result is the same, your party needs rest. The overall rewards should be the same as well. Easy encounters require little investments and provide a challenge proportionate to these small investments. A more difficult encounter will require higher investments and will also provide a challenge proportionate to these large investments. Now, if both an EL3 and an EL9 can be overcome with the same kind of effort, then the DM is playing something wrong or is coming across a nasty streak of bad luck.
Murrdox 06-04-07, 05:11 PM	As previous posters have pointed out, determining the EL has nothing to do with experience rewards. EL is just a tool for the GM. Also, this encounter would never be an EL of 9. A level 9 party would wipe the floor with this encounter without breaking a sweat. Even though there are an excessive amount of creatures, they are all too weak to do anything to harm a level 9 character, let alone a full party of them. I'd peg this at an EL of about 4. You calculate experience based on CR. A Skeleton is 1/3 challenge rating, making 1 skeleton worth 100 XP to your party. The CR 2 creature is worth 600 XP. (57 x 100 + 600) / 6 Party members = 1050 So that's about 1050 experience for each party member. Considering the amount of skeletons you had to deal with... I'd say that's a fair reward. That encounter is worth several smaller ones all rolled into one. The only thing I wonder about is how did your party overcome this encounter? 57 is a lot of skeletons for a level 2 party to deal with... even if you have 3 Clerics in the group. Were the odds stacked in your favor somehow? If the encounter was built in such a way that the characters had some kind of advantage... for example the skeletons were weaker than normal, or the encounter took place in a hallway where only 1 or 2 skeletons could attack at any given time.... Then I'd say the DM should lower the CR of the skeletons a bit, maybe to 1/4 or 1/5. Otherwise, if you just faced off a hoard of skeletons in a straight up fight, and used good party tactics, spells, and spent a lot of the party's resources doing it... I'd give you the full 1050 experience and say "Job well done".
Neutronium_Dragon 06-04-07, 05:40 PM	> Otherwise, if you just faced off a hoard of skeletons in a straight up fight, > and used good party tactics, spells, and spent a lot of the party's resources > doing it... I'd give you the full 1050 experience and say "Job well done". Ditto. I will also point out that the CR/EL system is geared around the expectation that you'll have four encounters of that level, not just one, and that your resources will be spread out across all four. If you're "going nova" and blowing all of your resources on a single fight then you'll be able to beat a larger group of opponents than you'd be able to handle if you were doing it four times over. I'd assume that your level 2 party, by the time the fight was done, had used up all or nearly all of its spells, expendable items, uses/day of other items, HPs, and so on. If so then exactly what should have happened did happen in that encounter.
Mystic Lemur 06-04-07, 11:26 PM	Alright. First I peg the EL at about 6. Sure, four level six PC's could wipe the floor with 57 skeletons, but there is the mob aspect to consider. I do find it hard to see how your group didn't get overwhelmed, but you managed it somehow, or you wouldn't be asking us about XP. Even though you have a PC one level higher than the rest of the party, he still falls into that 1st-3rd sweet spot where it is all the same. Therefore the skeletons are worth 100XP each and the CR2 baddie is worth 600XP. That gives you 6300XP/6PC's = 1050XP/PC as you already stated in your OP. You do not scale XP for the DM having a "bad night". If that were true, dragons would be worth near infinite XP because few DM's can truly play the effectively. The DMG does say that the DM can refuse to grant XP if the encounter should not have possibly been beaten, but the example it uses is fighting gods, not skeletons...