Attacking a "Grappled" Target [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attacking a "Grappled" Target [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Augurer
04-04-07, 02:14 PM Are there any modifiers involved for attacking an enemy who is currently involved in a grapple? Is the target considered to have cover of some sort? Or any other modifier?

What about casting a touch spell on an ally who is involved in a grapple? Is this just as much an auto-hit as touching an ally engaged in "standard melee"?

I can't find anything in the Grapple special attack section, or any mention of penalties in the rest of the Combat rules.
tos_shai_hulud
04-04-07, 02:18 PM Here it is in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm).

When attacking into a grapple with a melee weapon, the defender loses his dexterity bonus to AC, but has no other AC modifiers. When attacking into a grapple with a ranged weapon, you have a 50% chance of hitting either grappler. Roll randomly to see which one you hit. That defender loses his dex bonus to AC versus your ranged attack.
Rojar
04-05-07, 10:04 AM Here it is in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm).

When attacking into a grapple with a melee weapon, the defender loses his dexterity bonus to AC, but has no other AC modifiers. When attacking into a grapple with a ranged weapon, you have a 50% chance of hitting either grappler. Roll randomly to see which one you hit. That defender loses his dex bonus to AC versus your ranged attack.

Now, here's a thought, though. Since you have a 50% chance of hitting either grappler, (I assume that it means, "50% chance of hitting the grappler, 50% chance of hitting the person bring grappled"), then that seems to imply that you also have a 50% chance of MISSING either the grappler or the grappled as well.

How do seeking weapons fit into this?

From the SRD:

Seeking - "Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability. The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. (The wielder still has to aim the weapon at the right square. Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby.)"

Since there is an implied 'miss chance' here, does this mean that a seeking weapon always hits the target you wish it to hit in a grapple? It gives concealment as an example, but it seems like this is another case where the awesomeness of the seeking weapon shines through. Any opinions on this?
Merestil Haye
04-05-07, 10:24 AM Now, here's a thought, though. Since you have a 50% chance of hitting either grappler, (I assume that it means, "50% chance of hitting the grappler, 50% chance of hitting the person bring grappled"), then that seems to imply that you also have a 50% chance of MISSING either the grappler or the grappled as well.Despite being apparently identical, this is not a "miss chance" within the meaning of the game, sorry. If it was, the designers would have said something like "Attackers firing into a grapple have a miss chance."

Besides, the chance is not 50% - there is an even chance of hitting each creature in the grapple, and a grapple is not required to be exactly two creatures. There could be nine, in which case you have an 11% chance of hitting the one you aim for.

Seeking weapons don't affect this. They would affect the miss chance arising from (say) the entire grapple taking place in an area of complete blackness, thus guaranteeing you will hit someone - but not who that someone will be.
tos_shai_hulud
04-05-07, 10:27 AM Now, here's a thought, though. Since you have a 50% chance of hitting either grappler, (I assume that it means, "50% chance of hitting the grappler, 50% chance of hitting the person bring grappled"), then that seems to imply that you also have a 50% chance of MISSING either the grappler or the grappled as well.
Just wanted to point out that in a grapple, everyone involved is a grappler and everyone involved is the person being grappled. Once grappling is initiated, anyone involved is in the same boat. They are all grappling.

How do seeking weapons fit into this?

From the SRD:

Seeking - "Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability. The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. (The wielder still has to aim the weapon at the right square. Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby.)"

Since there is an implied 'miss chance' here, does this mean that a seeking weapon always hits the target you wish it to hit in a grapple? It gives concealment as an example, but it seems like this is another case where the awesomeness of the seeking weapon shines through. Any opinions on this?

Seeking may help, but the idea of why it is difficult is because the two share the same square and are moving around. Seeking is very good at hitting a stationary target using something as concealment, but if he were moving around (and his concealment moving around with him), it would not be a matter of having the magic directed at the correct location, but more a matter of prophecizing what that correct location would be. I don't think that Seeking was meant to do that, but I could be wrong.
Rojar
04-05-07, 10:39 AM Despite being apparently identical, this is not a "miss chance" within the meaning of the game, sorry. If it was, the designers would have said something like "Attackers firing into a grapple have a miss chance."

Besides, the chance is not 50% - there is an even chance of hitting each creature in the grapple, and a grapple is not required to be exactly two creatures. There could be nine, in which case you have an 11% chance of hitting the one you aim for.

Seeking weapons don't affect this. They would affect the miss chance arising from (say) the entire grapple taking place in an area of complete blackness, thus guaranteeing you will hit someone - but not who that someone will be.

Well, generally I'd agree. With 3rd edition and especially 3.5 using very specific, almost formulaic names for various bonuses, game effects, penalties, etc... It usually makes the job easy. This though... I dunno. One of my players has a seeking weapon and brought this to my attention. I'm almost tempted to houserule it in to my home game if RAW doesn't allow it. Almost. heh. Like grapple NEEDS to have extra rules/rulings in to make it more confusing. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Augurer 04-04-07, 02:14 PM	Are there any modifiers involved for attacking an enemy who is currently involved in a grapple? Is the target considered to have cover of some sort? Or any other modifier? What about casting a touch spell on an ally who is involved in a grapple? Is this just as much an auto-hit as touching an ally engaged in "standard melee"? I can't find anything in the Grapple special attack section, or any mention of penalties in the rest of the Combat rules.
tos_shai_hulud 04-04-07, 02:18 PM	Here it is in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm). When attacking into a grapple with a melee weapon, the defender loses his dexterity bonus to AC, but has no other AC modifiers. When attacking into a grapple with a ranged weapon, you have a 50% chance of hitting either grappler. Roll randomly to see which one you hit. That defender loses his dex bonus to AC versus your ranged attack.
Rojar 04-05-07, 10:04 AM	Here it is in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm). When attacking into a grapple with a melee weapon, the defender loses his dexterity bonus to AC, but has no other AC modifiers. When attacking into a grapple with a ranged weapon, you have a 50% chance of hitting either grappler. Roll randomly to see which one you hit. That defender loses his dex bonus to AC versus your ranged attack. Now, here's a thought, though. Since you have a 50% chance of hitting either grappler, (I assume that it means, "50% chance of hitting the grappler, 50% chance of hitting the person bring grappled"), then that seems to imply that you also have a 50% chance of MISSING either the grappler or the grappled as well. How do seeking weapons fit into this? From the SRD: Seeking - "Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability. The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. (The wielder still has to aim the weapon at the right square. Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby.)" Since there is an implied 'miss chance' here, does this mean that a seeking weapon always hits the target you wish it to hit in a grapple? It gives concealment as an example, but it seems like this is another case where the awesomeness of the seeking weapon shines through. Any opinions on this?
Merestil Haye 04-05-07, 10:24 AM	Now, here's a thought, though. Since you have a 50% chance of hitting either grappler, (I assume that it means, "50% chance of hitting the grappler, 50% chance of hitting the person bring grappled"), then that seems to imply that you also have a 50% chance of MISSING either the grappler or the grappled as well.Despite being apparently identical, this is not a "miss chance" within the meaning of the game, sorry. If it was, the designers would have said something like "Attackers firing into a grapple have a miss chance." Besides, the chance is not 50% - there is an even chance of hitting each creature in the grapple, and a grapple is not required to be exactly two creatures. There could be nine, in which case you have an 11% chance of hitting the one you aim for. Seeking weapons don't affect this. They would affect the miss chance arising from (say) the entire grapple taking place in an area of complete blackness, thus guaranteeing you will hit someone - but not who that someone will be.
tos_shai_hulud 04-05-07, 10:27 AM	Now, here's a thought, though. Since you have a 50% chance of hitting either grappler, (I assume that it means, "50% chance of hitting the grappler, 50% chance of hitting the person bring grappled"), then that seems to imply that you also have a 50% chance of MISSING either the grappler or the grappled as well. Just wanted to point out that in a grapple, everyone involved is a grappler and everyone involved is the person being grappled. Once grappling is initiated, anyone involved is in the same boat. They are all grappling. How do seeking weapons fit into this? From the SRD: Seeking - "Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability. The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. (The wielder still has to aim the weapon at the right square. Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby.)" Since there is an implied 'miss chance' here, does this mean that a seeking weapon always hits the target you wish it to hit in a grapple? It gives concealment as an example, but it seems like this is another case where the awesomeness of the seeking weapon shines through. Any opinions on this? Seeking may help, but the idea of why it is difficult is because the two share the same square and are moving around. Seeking is very good at hitting a stationary target using something as concealment, but if he were moving around (and his concealment moving around with him), it would not be a matter of having the magic directed at the correct location, but more a matter of prophecizing what that correct location would be. I don't think that Seeking was meant to do that, but I could be wrong.
Rojar 04-05-07, 10:39 AM	Despite being apparently identical, this is not a "miss chance" within the meaning of the game, sorry. If it was, the designers would have said something like "Attackers firing into a grapple have a miss chance." Besides, the chance is not 50% - there is an even chance of hitting each creature in the grapple, and a grapple is not required to be exactly two creatures. There could be nine, in which case you have an 11% chance of hitting the one you aim for. Seeking weapons don't affect this. They would affect the miss chance arising from (say) the entire grapple taking place in an area of complete blackness, thus guaranteeing you will hit someone - but not who that someone will be. Well, generally I'd agree. With 3rd edition and especially 3.5 using very specific, almost formulaic names for various bonuses, game effects, penalties, etc... It usually makes the job easy. This though... I dunno. One of my players has a seeking weapon and brought this to my attention. I'm almost tempted to houserule it in to my home game if RAW doesn't allow it. Almost. heh. Like grapple NEEDS to have extra rules/rulings in to make it more confusing. ;)