Attacks of opportunity and trip attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attacks of opportunity and trip attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Corpus
07-26-07, 11:56 PM During my game's last session, a deranged barbarian was running by the party to pick up his cursed sword of which they'd disarmed him. He passed by a cleric wielding a mace with one hand, who said he wanted to use his attack of opportunity to make a trip attempt. I wasn't sure whether it was legal, but since it seemed to make sense, I allowed it.

Later, I looked at Wizards' Rules of the Game column, and you can in fact make special attacks such as grapple, sunder, and trip as attacks of opportunity. The problem is, it also says that a character needs to use the weapon they're wielding to make the trip attempt. Why is that? Can't they just stick their foot out?

Anyway, another related question about AoO: When making attacks of opportunity, do you still, yourself, provoke attacks of opportunity with special actions that require an unarmed touch attack, like grapple or trip?
Salla
07-27-07, 12:37 AM I see no reason you can't trip with pure footwork, myself, and yes, you can provoke an AoO during an AoO.
runestar
07-27-07, 12:45 AM Your cleric cannot trip with an unarmed strike during an AoO as he does not threaten with them (even having IUS does not remedy this). Nor is the mace a tripping weapon. You can use the AoO to bop the barb on the head, but that is pretty much it.
KurenaiYami
07-27-07, 12:46 AM The problem is, it also says that a character needs to use the weapon they're wielding to make the trip attempt. Why is that? Can't they just stick their foot out?

You're always wielding your unarmed strike. That's my take, anyways.
Kouk
07-27-07, 12:51 AM You may always "have" your Unarmed Strike, but without Improved Unarmed Strike you do not Threaten any squares around you with it, so you can't use it to make an AoO.

If the Cleric had a sickle or flail, you'd be in business though for an AoO Trip attempt.
Karui_Kage
07-27-07, 01:14 AM Ignore my previous post, if you saw it.

Found the rule for Unarmed Attacks not threatening. Taking Improved Unarmed Attack would remedy this, since it makes your unarmed attacks lethal instead of nonlethal, and effectively 'armed'.
runestar
07-27-07, 01:20 AM Taking Improved Unarmed Attack would remedy this, since it makes your unarmed attacks lethal instead of nonlethal, and effectively 'armed'.

Armed just means you no longer provoke an AoO when attacking with your unarmed strike. I do not think that you will threaten with it (only exception being the monk).
Marcus Majarra
07-27-07, 03:24 AM Armed just means you no longer provoke an AoO when attacking with your unarmed strike. I do not think that you will threaten with it (only exception being the monk).
Your assessment here is incorrect. Having the Improved Unarmed Strike makes it so that you're considered to be armed, even when unarmed (PHB96). PHB137 and PHB139 further indicate that only unarmed characters threaten no squares (and thus can't make AoOs), but having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat makes it so that you're considered armed.
Gray Eminence
07-27-07, 03:51 AM So, consolidating what was previously said:

You can make a trip attack as an AoO. In order to be able to make a trip attack as an AoO, you must either have a weapon capable of carying out trip attacks (not all weapons are, it is indicated in the description of the weapon if it is, polearms typically do, as does spiked chain), or you must have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Also, if you have the Imporved Trip feat, you can make a free attack against the opponent if the trip attack was successful.

So, the classic trick done in most Tom&Jerry cartoons indicates that the figures had Improved Unarmed Strike. :D
Marcus Majarra
07-27-07, 11:19 AM You can make a trip attack as an AoO. In order to be able to make a trip attack as an AoO, you must either have a weapon capable of carying out trip attacks (not all weapons are, it is indicated in the description of the weapon if it is, polearms typically do, as does spiked chain), or you must have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Also, if you have the Imporved Trip feat, you can make a free attack against the opponent if the trip attack was successful.
To be more precise, if you want to trip as an AoO, you must be capable of performing the trip with a weapon that allowed you to threaten your target in the first place. PHB139 lists a few means of threatening your opponent unconventionally. If you're armed with a touch spell, you could very well attempt to trip as an AoO with the touch spell, delivering the spell in the process.
Kouk
07-27-07, 02:44 PM To be more precise, if you want to trip as an AoO, you must be capable of performing the trip with a weapon that allowed you to threaten your target in the first place. PHB139 lists a few means of threatening your opponent unconventionally. If you're armed with a touch spell, you could very well attempt to trip as an AoO with the touch spell, delivering the spell in the process.

Well, I would take issue with that. Having a touch spell does indeed allow you to threaten, but it is similar to a weapon type, as you can take Weapon Focus (Touch Spells). Since it is a weapon, it would have to say it was a Trip weapon in order to make Trip attacks with it.

You can deliver a Touch spell with an unarmed strike, which would allow you to make a Trip attempt, but you typically don't threaten with it (without Improved Unarmed Strike).

And as for Tom and Jerry having IUS for tripping each other, usually one of them would be flat footed or "unaware" of the attack, so they could make Trip attempts with a standard unarmed strike without fear of an AoO. :D
Marcus Majarra
07-27-07, 04:10 PM Well, I would take issue with that. Having a touch spell does indeed allow you to threaten, but it is similar to a weapon type, as you can take Weapon Focus (Touch Spells). Since it is a weapon, it would have to say it was a Trip weapon in order to make Trip attacks with it.

You can deliver a Touch spell with an unarmed strike, which would allow you to make a Trip attempt, but you typically don't threaten with it (without Improved Unarmed Strike).
I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you're armed with a touch spell, you threaten with it (see PHB137 and PHB139). As such, you can make AoOs with it. It's no different from the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, since it basically allows you to be considered armed, despite not wielding an actual weapon. As such, AoOs and trip attempts are perfectly legitimate.
Some_call_me_Tim
07-28-07, 12:56 AM Your cleric cannot trip with an unarmed strike during an AoO as he does not threaten with them (even having IUS does not remedy this). Nor is the mace a tripping weapon. You can use the AoO to bop the barb on the head, but that is pretty much it.I think the bit about using the weapon you threaten with is another Skipism.

The rules-as-written do not say that you need to use the weapon you threaten with to make the attack. It does seems rather silly that you need to threaten with one weapon and then make the attack of opportunity without it, but I can't find anything in the rules-as-written that prevents it.

Personally, I think disarm, grapple, trip attacks, and even unarmed strikes should be allowed as attacks of opportunity, but hey that is just me.
weasel0
07-28-07, 02:21 AM Personally, I think disarm, grapple, trip attacks, and even unarmed strikes should be allowed as attacks of opportunity, but hey that is just me.

Here here. Just remember that doing so will quite often open yourself to being struck by the barbarian yourself before you take the action(for provoking your own AoO).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Corpus 07-26-07, 11:56 PM	During my game's last session, a deranged barbarian was running by the party to pick up his cursed sword of which they'd disarmed him. He passed by a cleric wielding a mace with one hand, who said he wanted to use his attack of opportunity to make a trip attempt. I wasn't sure whether it was legal, but since it seemed to make sense, I allowed it. Later, I looked at Wizards' Rules of the Game column, and you can in fact make special attacks such as grapple, sunder, and trip as attacks of opportunity. The problem is, it also says that a character needs to use the weapon they're wielding to make the trip attempt. Why is that? Can't they just stick their foot out? Anyway, another related question about AoO: When making attacks of opportunity, do you still, yourself, provoke attacks of opportunity with special actions that require an unarmed touch attack, like grapple or trip?
Salla 07-27-07, 12:37 AM	I see no reason you can't trip with pure footwork, myself, and yes, you can provoke an AoO during an AoO.
runestar 07-27-07, 12:45 AM	Your cleric cannot trip with an unarmed strike during an AoO as he does not threaten with them (even having IUS does not remedy this). Nor is the mace a tripping weapon. You can use the AoO to bop the barb on the head, but that is pretty much it.
KurenaiYami 07-27-07, 12:46 AM	The problem is, it also says that a character needs to use the weapon they're wielding to make the trip attempt. Why is that? Can't they just stick their foot out? You're always wielding your unarmed strike. That's my take, anyways.
Kouk 07-27-07, 12:51 AM	You may always "have" your Unarmed Strike, but without Improved Unarmed Strike you do not Threaten any squares around you with it, so you can't use it to make an AoO. If the Cleric had a sickle or flail, you'd be in business though for an AoO Trip attempt.
Karui_Kage 07-27-07, 01:14 AM	Ignore my previous post, if you saw it. Found the rule for Unarmed Attacks not threatening. Taking Improved Unarmed Attack would remedy this, since it makes your unarmed attacks lethal instead of nonlethal, and effectively 'armed'.
runestar 07-27-07, 01:20 AM	Taking Improved Unarmed Attack would remedy this, since it makes your unarmed attacks lethal instead of nonlethal, and effectively 'armed'. Armed just means you no longer provoke an AoO when attacking with your unarmed strike. I do not think that you will threaten with it (only exception being the monk).
Marcus Majarra 07-27-07, 03:24 AM	Armed just means you no longer provoke an AoO when attacking with your unarmed strike. I do not think that you will threaten with it (only exception being the monk). Your assessment here is incorrect. Having the Improved Unarmed Strike makes it so that you're considered to be armed, even when unarmed (PHB96). PHB137 and PHB139 further indicate that only unarmed characters threaten no squares (and thus can't make AoOs), but having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat makes it so that you're considered armed.
Gray Eminence 07-27-07, 03:51 AM	So, consolidating what was previously said: You can make a trip attack as an AoO. In order to be able to make a trip attack as an AoO, you must either have a weapon capable of carying out trip attacks (not all weapons are, it is indicated in the description of the weapon if it is, polearms typically do, as does spiked chain), or you must have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Also, if you have the Imporved Trip feat, you can make a free attack against the opponent if the trip attack was successful. So, the classic trick done in most Tom&Jerry cartoons indicates that the figures had Improved Unarmed Strike. :D
Marcus Majarra 07-27-07, 11:19 AM	You can make a trip attack as an AoO. In order to be able to make a trip attack as an AoO, you must either have a weapon capable of carying out trip attacks (not all weapons are, it is indicated in the description of the weapon if it is, polearms typically do, as does spiked chain), or you must have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Also, if you have the Imporved Trip feat, you can make a free attack against the opponent if the trip attack was successful. To be more precise, if you want to trip as an AoO, you must be capable of performing the trip with a weapon that allowed you to threaten your target in the first place. PHB139 lists a few means of threatening your opponent unconventionally. If you're armed with a touch spell, you could very well attempt to trip as an AoO with the touch spell, delivering the spell in the process.
Kouk 07-27-07, 02:44 PM	To be more precise, if you want to trip as an AoO, you must be capable of performing the trip with a weapon that allowed you to threaten your target in the first place. PHB139 lists a few means of threatening your opponent unconventionally. If you're armed with a touch spell, you could very well attempt to trip as an AoO with the touch spell, delivering the spell in the process. Well, I would take issue with that. Having a touch spell does indeed allow you to threaten, but it is similar to a weapon type, as you can take Weapon Focus (Touch Spells). Since it is a weapon, it would have to say it was a Trip weapon in order to make Trip attacks with it. You can deliver a Touch spell with an unarmed strike, which would allow you to make a Trip attempt, but you typically don't threaten with it (without Improved Unarmed Strike). And as for Tom and Jerry having IUS for tripping each other, usually one of them would be flat footed or "unaware" of the attack, so they could make Trip attempts with a standard unarmed strike without fear of an AoO. :D
Marcus Majarra 07-27-07, 04:10 PM	Well, I would take issue with that. Having a touch spell does indeed allow you to threaten, but it is similar to a weapon type, as you can take Weapon Focus (Touch Spells). Since it is a weapon, it would have to say it was a Trip weapon in order to make Trip attacks with it. You can deliver a Touch spell with an unarmed strike, which would allow you to make a Trip attempt, but you typically don't threaten with it (without Improved Unarmed Strike). I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you're armed with a touch spell, you threaten with it (see PHB137 and PHB139). As such, you can make AoOs with it. It's no different from the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, since it basically allows you to be considered armed, despite not wielding an actual weapon. As such, AoOs and trip attempts are perfectly legitimate.
Some_call_me_Tim 07-28-07, 12:56 AM	Your cleric cannot trip with an unarmed strike during an AoO as he does not threaten with them (even having IUS does not remedy this). Nor is the mace a tripping weapon. You can use the AoO to bop the barb on the head, but that is pretty much it.I think the bit about using the weapon you threaten with is another Skipism. The rules-as-written do not say that you need to use the weapon you threaten with to make the attack. It does seems rather silly that you need to threaten with one weapon and then make the attack of opportunity without it, but I can't find anything in the rules-as-written that prevents it. Personally, I think disarm, grapple, trip attacks, and even unarmed strikes should be allowed as attacks of opportunity, but hey that is just me.
weasel0 07-28-07, 02:21 AM	Personally, I think disarm, grapple, trip attacks, and even unarmed strikes should be allowed as attacks of opportunity, but hey that is just me. Here here. Just remember that doing so will quite often open yourself to being struck by the barbarian yourself before you take the action(for provoking your own AoO).