Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arisune 05-24-07, 01:08 PM	Last session, my party was in a fight with a young white dragon (CR4 dragon vs 2 level 3 Fighters) and towards the end of the battle, both the PC's were down for the count (One got hit with the dragon's breath weapon, dropping him to -8 and the other was stumbling around at 0hp.) The player at 0hp decided to drop prone and attempt to fake death to draw the dragon to melee, which worked, and I allowed him to make an attack from prone with -4 from his roll (removing his attack bonuses because he was flat on his back) Which, as luck would have it, turned out to be a natural 20... followed by another 19. Since the dragon was caught by surprise by the attack, it was considered flat footed, and he criticalled the dragon, killing the creature. I'm now wondering if i had made a mistake letting him make that attack. Can a player attack while prone, either in this situation, or in any situation?
Fireclave 05-24-07, 01:13 PM	Prone The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity. A prone creature attacking in melee only takes a -4 penalty to his attack rolls. He doesn't lose any other bonuses.
Someone 05-24-07, 01:15 PM	Actually, what you did was correct. Attacking while prone is a -4 to hit (my apologies if you already knew that). The only thing missing from your description was a Bluff check to "play dead". Provided it worked (dragons usually have high Sense Motive skills), resolving it as a feint maneuver, thus making the dragon flat-footed was a good solution. p.s.: what Fireclave said. Need to write quicker...
Arisune 05-24-07, 01:18 PM	Ok, so I actually over-penalized my player? ok, next time I'll know better. Thanks for the responses. I knew I forgot something in there, although the White dragon might have a low sense motive score. they have an Intelligence of... 6 I think at that age. Again, thank you both for clearing that up for me. I haven't had any use for prone attacks before, and I couldn't find the rule t that moment. Which book would it be in? I'm assuming either the PHB or DMG.
Midrealm_DM 05-24-07, 01:26 PM	The player at 0hp decided to drop prone and attempt to fake death to draw the dragon to melee, which worked, and I allowed him to make an attack from prone with -4 from his roll...and he criticalled the dragon, killing the creature. Not only do you only suffer a -4 to attack while prone, you suffer no penalty to AC either and keep your dex bonus (though melee attackers get +4 to hit you). Tables 8-5 and 8-6 on p 151 of the player's handbook provide more details. I would have required him to make a bluff check or something to pull this off, as the dragon might have seen him breathing. (I know I would have trouble controlling my breathing in such a situation) Plus if the creature has scent or similar, they might be able to tell the difference between living and dead. Suppose the dragon had instead walked over to the other felled PC to begin feasting. Then what? Or maybe decided to flash freeeze its food for later consumption. Yeah - I'm just being evil now
Fireclave 05-24-07, 01:29 PM	DMG, Pg301, under the Prone condition
Arisune 05-24-07, 01:30 PM	Not only do you only suffer a -4 to attack while prone, you suffer no penalty to AC either and keep your dex bonus (though melee attackers get +4 to hit you). Tables 8-5 and 8-6 on p 151 of the player's handbook provide more details. I would have required him to make a bluff check or something to pull this off, as the dragon might have seen him breathing. (I know I would have trouble controlling my breathing in such a situation) Plus if the creature has scent or similar, they might be able to tell the difference between living and dead. Suppose the dragon had instead walked over to the other felled PC to begin feasting. Then what? Or maybe decided to flash freeeze its food for later consumption. Yeah - I'm just being evil now Well, both PC's were pretty frosty. the thing hit them both with the breath weapon twice. (only surviving because I got some TERRIBLE rolls...) Anyways, those ideas are great. I wish I had of thought of them myself at that time. I just figured the dragon would go for the closest downed opponent for that very reason. It was pretty hungry...
thaylok 05-24-07, 01:38 PM	What happened next? I see a good battle, with a problem in the mechanics, which would have prevented the attack. Mainly, from the PHB 0 Hit Points: If your hit points drop to 0, you are disabled. You can only take one move action or standard action per turn, and you take 1 point of damage after completing an action Here I stress the AND part. The action to fall prone is a free action, so I have no disagreement. The feigning death as in WOW, is a good tactic. Also as others have said, I'd agree with a Bluff check. Using a skill is either a standard action, or a move action (some are full round, or more), depending on the skill to be used. Which that should have been the end of their turn. However, the player took an attack action (I assume it was a standard attack, unless OP described the dragon walking round and round the "corpse" of the player. Which would then be an AoO). So I see 2 actions, both at least standard actions. This is where the AND comes in. The player should have taken 1 point of damage with the skill use and then fallen unconscious. Leaving him as a meal. While I commend you for keeping your players alive in adverse conditions, I think I would have been tied to the RAW. As much as I dislike killing PC's... it happens. Edit: Some skills may be free actions. So if you chose that for Bluff, so be it. In any case, after the sweet attack, the PC would be at -1, and then it's % to stabilize. They could stabilize and recover, or hit -10.
Arisune 05-24-07, 01:45 PM	What happened next? I see a good battle, with a problem in the mechanics, which would have prevented the attack. Mainly, from the PHB 0 Hit Points: If your hit points drop to 0, you are disabled. You can only take one move action or standard action per turn, and you take 1 point of damage after completing an action Here I stress the AND part. The action to fall prone is a free action, so I have no disagreement. The feigning death as in WOW, is a good tactic, as others have said, I'd agree with a Bluff check. and using a skill is either a standard action, or a move action (some are full round, or more), depending on the skill to be used. Which that should have been the end of their turn. However, the player took an attack action (I assume it was a standard attack, unless OP described the dragon walking round and round the "corpse" of the player. Which would then be an AoO). So I see 2 actions, both at least standard actions. This is where the AND comes in. The player should have taken 1 point of damage with the skill use and then fallen unconscious. Leaving him as a meal. While I commend you for keeping your players alive in adverse conditions, I think I would have been tied to the RAW. As much as I dislike killing PC's... it happens. Oh, he took the 1 point of damage after the attack. I didn't see the use of the bluff in that case as a standard action. I mean, it takes 0.3 seconds to hold your breath, right? So really all he did was drop prone and hold his breath.
thaylok 05-24-07, 01:54 PM	Oh, he took the 1 point of damage after the attack. I didn't see the use of the bluff in that case as a standard action. I mean, it takes 0.3 seconds to hold your breath, right? So really all he did was drop prone and hold his breath. Great :) I was thinking of Kahn's last breath, with which he spit at Cptn. Kirk.
Midrealm_DM 05-24-07, 02:27 PM	The action to fall prone is a free action, so I have no disagreement. The feigning death as in WOW, is a good tactic. Also as others have said, I'd agree with a Bluff check. Using a skill is either a standard action, or a move action (some are full round, or more), depending on the skill to be used. Which that should have been the end of their turn. True - But bluff says its action time 'varies' and then goes on for some examples. (p 68 PHB) I would personally allow this as part of the 'drop prone' action to look like a convincing dead man falling. Mainly cause it was an clever trick in a desperate situation, and I don't think players should be penalized for being creative or clever. Further I would give the dragon the -5 sense motive for wanting to believe the bluff. After all, I would think a young inexperienced dragon would certainly believe a foe struck by its breath would die easily. Now if the player wasn't at 0 hp, I would certainly agree, standard action to convincingly look dead. And give a bonus to the Sense Motive, I mean from the dragon's point of view a person suddenly dropped dead for no reason. I might eliminate the Sense Bonus if the player had a readied action to play dead when the dragon breathed at him, but at that point we are moving beyond the relevant topic. :D
Phrennzy 05-24-07, 04:24 PM	I'm glad your player's smart tactic resulted in victory. At least, I'm assuming he stablized and lived to tell the tale?
Xykon 05-25-07, 05:45 AM	Ok, so I actually over-penalized my player? ok, next time I'll know better. Thanks for the responses. I knew I forgot something in there, although the White dragon might have a low sense motive score. they have an Intelligence of... 6 I think at that age. Again, thank you both for clearing that up for me. I haven't had any use for prone attacks before, and I couldn't find the rule t that moment. Which book would it be in? I'm assuming either the PHB or DMG.No, you didn't over penalize. It is, as per RAW, you only get -4 penalty for the attack. You just missed out the part for the fighter to have a bluff check, thats all.
Arisune 05-25-07, 09:55 AM	I'm glad your player's smart tactic resulted in victory. At least, I'm assuming he stablized and lived to tell the tale? He stabalized the next round, and his friend was already stable, so once he healed to a point where he could help his friend without dying, they both survived the encounter. When the second player hit 0 hp, I thought I had just tpked my party for the first time.
Phrennzy 05-25-07, 10:06 AM	No, you didn't over penalize. It is, as per RAW, you only get -4 penalty for the attack. You just missed out the part for the fighter to have a bluff check, thats all. He also (removing his attack bonuses because he was flat on his back). So he did over penalize.
Someone 05-25-07, 01:54 PM	I think he meant "the -4 (for being prone) completely countered his total attack bonus, to a net +0 to hit".
Kragg Bonemeal 05-25-07, 02:10 PM	He stabalized the next round, and his friend was already stable, so once he healed to a point where he could help his friend without dying, they both survived the encounter. When the second player hit 0 hp, I thought I had just tpked my party for the first time. So they slept on the floor for a day to recover HPs? Remember, although stable, negative HPs=unconcious. They had no backup healer??? Fighter sleeping... in armor... unless he has Endurance (is that the one?) he doesn't recover HPs when sleeping in armor. Very cinematic! Congratz! Some of the rules may have gotten a little tweaked though.
olshanski_home 05-25-07, 02:39 PM	Since the dragon was caught by surprise by the attack, it was considered flat footed, and he criticalled the dragon, killing the creature. As everyone has said, the dragon should have had a sense motive vs bluff to determine that the player was still a threat. Regardless, if the dragon was flat footed, that doesn't change much, since dragons have very little dex to add to their AC anyway. The dragon still should have had its full natural armor. If combat was still going on, the dragon could not be flat-footed, since that condition only applies during the surprise round of combat and during the first round before the creature has acted. If this is in the middle of combat, the dragon cannot by definition be caught flat-footed.
Phrennzy 05-25-07, 03:48 PM	As everyone has said, the dragon should have had a sense motive vs bluff to determine that the player was still a threat. Regardless, if the dragon was flat footed, that doesn't change much, since dragons have very little dex to add to their AC anyway. The dragon still should have had its full natural armor. If combat was still going on, the dragon could not be flat-footed, since that condition only applies during the surprise round of combat and during the first round before the creature has acted. If this is in the middle of combat, the dragon cannot by definition be caught flat-footed. Pfft. Stickler. :p Leave the boy alone, his players were grasping at straws, and being creative in their attempt to avoid a TPK. I would have done the same as DM. Except the dragon would have Munched up the other PC first before moving to the fallen warrior. :D
DreadArchon 05-25-07, 04:41 PM	Feh. As a DM, I'd have done the "Free Action Bluff" thing, but I'd have given the "dying" PC a +10 circumstance modifier, so it probably would have turned out the same. One hit point from unconscious can't look all that different from unconscious, especially when you're trying to look unconscious at that time.
StevenO 05-25-07, 11:29 PM	In theory two Level 3s vs a CR 4 dragon should have been lunch meat. I certainly applaud the players for emerging victorious. As for the mechanics involved I don't even know if a bluff should be needed as the DC should have been very low (almost dying vs dying is a very fine line) and the dragon very willing to believe the results. As far as sense motive both PCs should have appeared very similiar to the dragon as neither was really dead but also didn't appear to be much of a threat. That is one great and apparently perfectly balanced encounter as it left both sides so close to dead. It would have been even more interesting to have seen the dragon dropped to only -1 hp or so to set up the race to see who can recover most quickly.