Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koz 05-09-07, 10:06 AM	I'm confused by the FAQ entry on Augment Healing and the Vigor spells. It says that Augment Healing would only heal damage once during the spells duration. But I'm not sure why Augment Healing affects Vigor at all. Doesn't Vigor just grant you an ability (i.e. Fast Healing) which then heals you? You're not actually being healed by the spell, but rather an ability granted by the spell. The other confusion of the entry is that it says "how does Augment Healing work with Lesser Vigor and similar spells". Some people are interpreting "similar" to mean ANY spell that heals over time, while others say its only refering to the other Vigor spells. If Augment Healing only heals once for all healing over time spells then Augment Healing needs to be errated (not FAQ'd) to say that. Because if you take any Healing Conjuration spell that heals over time (such as Magic Convalescence) and apply the text of Augment Healing round by round, there is NO WAY it can be said to NOT heal every single instance of healing. Am I wrong here? Koz
runestar 05-09-07, 10:22 AM	Depends on how you interpret it, I suppose. Augment healing simply states that the spell heals an extra 2*spell lv hp. Vigor can be construed as healing hp as well, just that the healing takes place in a very indirect way(fast healing), but can be construed as healing nonetheless. Plus, it is a conjuration(healing) spell anyways. So a literal interpretation could mean that augment healing lets vigor heal an extra spell lv*2 hp per casting of the spell, not per round. I suppose wotc was already quite generous in allowing the extra hp healed to be front-loaded onto the 1st round, rather than be spread out over subsequent rounds or something.:P
Koz 05-09-07, 11:37 AM	Well, I'm much more interested in the second part of what I was talking about. Specifically how Augment Healing works with Magic Convalscense. Koz
tos_shai_hulud 05-09-07, 11:45 AM	Is Magic Convalescence a Conjuration (Healing) spell? If it is, it gets the bonus first round, then doesn't gain it again. If it is not Conjuration (Healing), it does not gain that bonus.
Koz 05-09-07, 02:05 PM	Is Magic Convalescence a Conjuration (Healing) spell? If it is, it gets the bonus first round, then doesn't gain it again. If it is not Conjuration (Healing), it does not gain that bonus. It is a Coujuration (Healing) spell. However, why do you say it only gets the bonus one round? I'm not sure if its against the board rules to reprint the text of their material, so I won't, but please take the text of Augment Healing and and apply it, round by round, to a spell like Magic Convalescence. Then tell me where in the text it says it would not work every round. If you are refering to the FAQ, please read the rest of my post that asks questions about the FAQ ruling.
tos_shai_hulud 05-09-07, 02:08 PM	It says that when casting a Conjuration (Healing) spell, it adds a certain amount to the healing. It does not say that every round of healing that takes place, an additional amount of healing takes place. It means that for the spell cast, you get 2*spell level hp extra healing. That's it. If you want to distribute it equally over the entire spell duration, you may. But it is still a fixed amount of extra hp, not extra hp per round.
Koz 05-09-07, 02:27 PM	It says that when casting a Conjuration (Healing) spell, it adds a certain amount to the healing. It does not say that every round of healing that takes place, an additional amount of healing takes place. It means that for the spell cast, you get 2*spell level hp extra healing. That's it. If you want to distribute it equally over the entire spell duration, you may. But it is still a fixed amount of extra hp, not extra hp per round. Can you please provide proof of that? It does not say that Augment Healing adds a bonus to ONLY one round of healing, nor does it say that it only adds to the TOTAL amount of healing. So where are you getting this text? Lets use an example. To paraphrase the text of Augment Healing, it says "when a Conjuration Healing spell you cast heals hit point damage add 2*spell level to the amount". I'll use an example. Now, lets say I cast Magic Convalescance. The next round I cast a spell. Magic Convalescence triggers to the spell being cast to heal me which also triggers Augment Healing at the same time (since Magic Convalescense is a Conjuration Healing spell that I cast and is healing hit point damage) and adds 2*spell level to the amount healed. The next round I cast another spell. Magic Convalesance triggers to me casting a spell and heals me and (if you read the text of Augment Healing), triggers Augment Healing again since it is a Conjuration Healing spell that I cast and is healing hit point damage to add 2*spell level to the amount healed. Now tell me, using only the text of Augment Healing, and not adding any words or phrases (like "once" or "total amount") to the text, why it would NOT trigger on the second activation of Magic Convalescence (and future activations). See, the problem is, if you say Augment Healing only adds 2*spell level to the TOTAL amount of the healing done by Magic Convalescense, then you need to show how you came to that conclusion, because the text of Augment Healing dosen't support you. Whenver you have several "amounts" of anything, in order to refer to them all, you need a qualifier, like "total", that indicates you are refering to ALL AMOUNTS of a given set. That is not the case here. Koz
tos_shai_hulud 05-09-07, 02:36 PM	Your paraphrasing is incorrect. It says, "Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast." That is the total damage. It does not say that each time it heals, add +2 points per spell level. It says that when you cast it, this spell (singular) will heal that extra amount. I am getting my information from the wording of the feat. This affects the amount of damage healed total, not the amount of damage healed each iteration. If the text were to allow it to heal damage each round, it would have to have text that says something to the effect of "When any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast heals damage, add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed." Since it does not say that, you don't get the benefit every round. You get it once per spell.
Koz 05-09-07, 02:53 PM	Acutally, you are way off here, no offense. First I just want to point out how many times you had to add the word "total" to your explanation, if the text was as clear as you are saying you wouldn't need to add words. Your paraphrasing is incorrect. It says, "Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast." That is the total damage. What? WHY is it the TOTAL? It does not say that each time it heals, add +2 points per spell level. It says that when you cast it, this spell (singular) will heal that extra amount. I am getting my information from the wording of the feat. Yes, but you aren't listening. Magic Convalescense is a (singular) spell that is doing the healing. Not sure where your confusion is coming from here. If the text were to allow it to heal damage each round, it would have to have text that says something to the effect of "When any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast heals damage, add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed." Since it does not say that, you don't get the benefit every round. You get it once per spell. Not even sure what that means. Please show me, in an example, why your argument works please. Once again, I'll give one to support my side (and please read it, i'm using your text from above): 1st round: I cast Magic Convalescence. 2nd round: I cast a second level spell. Magic Convalescence kicks in and heals me 2 hit points. Since Magic Convalescence is a Conjuration Healing spell that I cast, Augment Healing then adds 10 points to the healing amount. I check the text of Augment Healing ("Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast." ) and yep, I'm within the rules. 3rd round: I cast a second level spell. Magic Convalescence kicks in and heals me 2 hit points. Since Magic Convalescence is a Conjuration Healing spell that I cast, Augment Healing then adds 10 points to the healing amount. I check the text of Augment Healing ("Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast." ) and yep, I'm within the rules. Why? Because nowhere in the text of Augment Healing does it say "the total amount" healed, thats why. You have to show, using only the text of Augment Healing, why it does not add to the amount of healing dealt in the second round (and future rounds). How are you turning "add +2 points per spell level to the amount" to "add +2 points per spell level to the total amount"? Please refute this using a round by round example like I have done, using only the acutal text. Koz
Merestil Haye 05-09-07, 02:59 PM	It is a Coujuration (Healing) spell. However, why do you say it only gets the bonus one round? I'm not sure if its against the board rules to reprint the text of their material, so I won't, but please take the text of Augment Healing and and apply it, round by round, to a spell like Magic Convalescence. Then tell me where in the text it says it would not work every round. If you are refering to the FAQ, please read the rest of my post that asks questions about the FAQ ruling.It probably is against the board rules; however no-one can answer the question without reading the spell as well as the feat. However, tos_shai_hulud is interpreting the feat correctly. The feat tells you to determine the amount of healing the spell will give and add twice the spell level to that total. Once.
tos_shai_hulud 05-09-07, 03:06 PM	In round three, you look at the circumstances, and you realize that you have already received the benefit of Augment Healing for that spell. Augment Healing does not say that every time a spell grants healing, you gain additional healing. It says that if a spell grants healing, it heals additional damage. The spell heals additional damage, not its effect. Its effect could heal you twenty times, but the feat only grants additional healing to the spell once.
Koz 05-09-07, 03:13 PM	In round three, you look at the circumstances, and you realize that you have already received the benefit of Augment Healing for that spell. Augment Healing does not say that every time a spell grants healing, you gain additional healing. It says that if a spell grants healing, it heals additional damage. The spell heals additional damage, not its effect. Its effect could heal you twenty times, but the feat only grants additional healing to the spell once. Could you use a round by round example please, using only the text of Augment Healing? Koz
tos_shai_hulud 05-09-07, 03:18 PM	Could you use a round by round example please, using only the text of Augment Healing? Koz 1st round: I cast Magic Convalescence. 2nd round: I cast a second level spell. Magic Convalescence kicks in and heals me 2 hit points. Since Magic Convalescence is a Conjuration Healing spell that I cast, Augment Healing then adds 10 points to the healing amount. I check the text of Augment Healing ("Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast." ) and yep, I'm within the rules. 3rd round: I cast a second level spell. Magic Convalescence kicks in and heals me 2 hit points. Since Augment Healing already provided my Magic Convalescence additional healing, the feat does not activate again because it is the same spell.
tos_shai_hulud 05-09-07, 03:22 PM	Or, another example is: 1st round: I cast Magic Convalescence. 2nd round: I cast a second level spell. Magic Convalescence kicks in and heals me 2 hit points. I check the text of Augment Healing ("Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast." ) and I realize that because Magic Convalescence is still running, I don't know the total amount of damage it has healed. I cannot add anything to an unknown amount, I cannot add any additional healing yet. 3rd round: I cast a second level spell. Magic Convalescence kicks in and heals me 2 hit points. Once again, the Magic Convalescence has not ended, so I do not know how much it has healed. Therefore I cannot add to it yet. 4th round-9th round: I do nothing but bleed. End of 10th round: My Magical Convalescence spell ends. It healed 4 hp of damage. I add 10 to that.
Koz 05-09-07, 03:25 PM	1st round: I cast Magic Convalescence. 2nd round: I cast a second level spell. Magic Convalescence kicks in and heals me 2 hit points. Since Magic Convalescence is a Conjuration Healing spell that I cast, Augment Healing then adds 10 points to the healing amount. I check the text of Augment Healing ("Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast." ) and yep, I'm within the rules. 3rd round: I cast a second level spell. Magic Convalescence kicks in and heals me 2 hit points. Since Augment Healing already provided my Magic Convalescence additional healing, the feat does not activate again because it is the same spell. Augment Healing does not specify that it only heals once, or that it adds to the total amount only. The text of the feat does not support your third round example, becuase you have to add words to the text to make it work. You and I are not going to agree so, at this point, I appreciate your input, but I'd like to hear from some additional people. Maybe because I was an English Major I tend to take text literaly instead of subjectivly. I don't know. Koz
Koz 05-09-07, 03:29 PM	Or, another example is: 1st round: I cast Magic Convalescence. 2nd round: I cast a second level spell. Magic Convalescence kicks in and heals me 2 hit points. I check the text of Augment Healing ("Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast." ) and I realize that because Magic Convalescence is still running, I don't know the total amount of damage it has healed. This is why I'm done arguing with you about this. You had to add the word "total" to make this work. If you just apply the text as is, the feat kicks in immediately. I cannot add anything to an unknown amount, I cannot add any additional healing yet. The amount is not "unknown", you already specified it as 2. How is that unknown? If you mean the "total" amount is unknown, you are correct, but we aren't looking for the "total" unless the feat tells us to, and it dosen't. The rest of your post is irrelevant. Koz
tos_shai_hulud 05-09-07, 03:31 PM	Ok, as an English Major, you should appreciate my second example. That one is far more literal. You are adding the term 'effect' without stating it in your example, and possibly without even realizing it. You are adding the bonus of Augment Healing to the spell effect, not to the spell itself. My second example will be more in line with your literal interpretation. Once you know how much the spell has healed, then you can add to it. That only occurs when the spell ends.
Koz 05-09-07, 03:32 PM	It probably is against the board rules; however no-one can answer the question without reading the spell as well as the feat. However, tos_shai_hulud is interpreting the feat correctly. The feat tells you to determine the amount of healing the spell will give and add twice the spell level to that total. Once. The feat says no such thing. Please provide proof of this assertion using the English language. Koz
tos_shai_hulud 05-09-07, 03:32 PM	This is why I'm done arguing with you about this. You had to add the word "total" to make this work. If you just apply the text as is, the feat kicks in immediately. The amount is not "unknown", you already specified it as 2. How is that unknown? If you mean the "total" amount is unknown, you are correct, but we aren't looking for the "total" unless the feat tells us to, and it dosen't. The rest of your post is irrelevant. Koz Wrong, as an English Major, this should be apparent to you. The amount that the Spell has healed is not known. The amount that an EFFECT of the spell has healed is known. When the spell ends, you will know how much the SPELL has healed. Not its effect on a round-by-round basis.
Koz 05-09-07, 03:39 PM	You're quibbling. The "amount" of healing certainly IS known, the "total amount" is not. Each time Magic Convalescence heals me, I'm being healed by Magic Convalescence, not some nebulous "effect". It heals me several times, for several amounts. The feat does not look for a "total" of these amounts, it mearly looks for me to be healed an amount by a Conjuration Healing spell. Please, you and I are not going to agree, that is plain, and that is fine. Your input is noted, but I don't want this to become a me vs. you thread. I'm looking for input from various people. Maybe I should've gone to the Optimization Board, they are very strict on reading the text as is? Koz
KillerGM 05-09-07, 03:48 PM	I'm confused by the FAQ entry on Augment Healing and the Vigor spells. It says that Augment Healing would only heal damage once during the spells duration. But I'm not sure why Augment Healing affects Vigor at all. Doesn't Vigor just grant you an ability (i.e. Fast Healing) which then heals you? You're not actually being healed by the spell, but rather an ability granted by the spell. The other confusion of the entry is that it says "how does Augment Healing work with Lesser Vigor and similar spells". Some people are interpreting "similar" to mean ANY spell that heals over time, while others say its only refering to the other Vigor spells. If Augment Healing only heals once for all healing over time spells then Augment Healing needs to be errated (not FAQ'd) to say that. Because if you take any Healing Conjuration spell that heals over time (such as Magic Convalescence) and apply the text of Augment Healing round by round, there is NO WAY it can be said to NOT heal every single instance of healing. Am I wrong here? To answer the first part, Augment Healing affects the healing from Conjuration [Healing] spells. Since Vigor and Magical Convalescence are Conjuration [Healing] spells, they are affected. As for your interpretation that it would grant the additional healing every time it heals, I agree with tos_shai_hulud on this, for reasons he's stated. Is it vague? Yes, hence the question in the FAQ. But, I think that the intent of the spell is clear enough that it is total. Of course you can argue what the meaning behind "total" is, or the fact that one word isn't written, even though you don't need it in that sentence... it works as a "total" effect in just the way it's written (by inference). I think you're being overly specific in this case. I agree with tos_shai_hulud. It should apply once to any damage healed by a Conjuration [healing] spell you cast. :)
Merestil Haye 05-09-07, 03:49 PM	The feat says no such thing. Please provide proof of this assertion using the English language. KozPlease give me a reference to the Magic Convalescence spell first. I'd like to double-check that there isn't something funny going on with the spell.
tos_shai_hulud 05-09-07, 03:49 PM	Sounds good. From the viewpoint of another English major that I showed this to, he agreed with me. The once the spell ends, you add the effects of Augment Healing. He is a fourth year English Major who got an 800 on the English portion of his SATs, so I put a great deal of stock into his opinions. Edit: I live on campus, so finding English Majors is fairly simple.
Koz 05-09-07, 04:01 PM	To answer the first part, Augment Healing affects the healing from Conjuration [Healing] spells. Since Vigor and Magical Convalescence are Conjuration [Healing] spells, they are affected. As for your interpretation that it would grant the additional healing every time it heals, I agree with tos_shai_hulud on this, for reasons he's stated. Is it vague? Yes, hence the question in the FAQ. But, I think that the intent of the spell is clear enough that it is total. Of course you can argue what the meaning behind "total" is, or the fact that one word isn't written, even though you don't need it in that sentence... it works as a "total" effect in just the way it's written (by inference). I think you're being overly specific in this case. I agree with tos_shai_hulud. It should apply once to any damage healed by a Conjuration [healing] spell you cast. :) I agree that it is vague, be we shouldn't be judging this on what we think "should" be, but rather what IS. I appreciate what you have said, but it seems like you are making this descision based on what you "think" it should work like, not on what it actually says. You mention that you think I'm being overly specific, and maybe I am, but when the rules are vague, that's exactly when you NEED to be overly specific. Koz
Koz 05-09-07, 04:03 PM	Sounds good. From the viewpoint of another English major that I showed this to, he agreed with me. The once the spell ends, you add the effects of Augment Healing. He is a fourth year English Major who got an 800 on the English portion of his SATs, so I put a great deal of stock into his opinions. Edit: I live on campus, so finding English Majors is fairly simple. ..... Lol, I'll buy that for a dollar. That you were able to find this English Major, show him the relevant text and explain the indepth nature of this discussion, including all of the various nuances, and have him form a well thought out opinion, and then post it in just 17 minutes is breathtaking. You are a dynamo of activity! Thanks for the input though. Koz
tos_shai_hulud 05-09-07, 04:12 PM	..... Lol, I'll buy that for a dollar. That you were able to find this English Major, show him the relevant text and explain the indepth nature of this discussion, including all of the various nuances, and have him form a well thought out opinion, and then post it in just 17 minutes is breathtaking. You are a dynamo of activity! Thanks for the input though. Koz Lol, you clearly underestimate me. He does not play D&D, so here is what I presented to him as an analogous situation: "Rule: Add 2 square inches to the area increased by any area increasing process you implement. Area Increasing Process 1: This process takes 10 minutes. Each time a length is measured, increase the area by 2 square inches. Activity: --Minute 1: Start Area Increasing Process 1 --Minute 2: Measure length --Minute 3: Measure length --Minute 11: Area Increasing Process 1 ends." This is a fairly analogous breakdown of the situation. I asked him the total amount of area that was added. He said six square inches. I asked why it was not eight. He said because the Rule applied to the process, not the individual effects of the process.
Koz 05-09-07, 04:19 PM	Lol, you clearly underestimate me. He does not play D&D, so here is what I presented to him as an analogous situation: This is a fairly analogous breakdown of the situation. I asked him the total amount of area that was added. He said six square inches. I asked why it was not eight. He said because the Rule applied to the process, not the individual effects of the process. Well, that's where you got it wrong then. In your example Process = Total Amount. Thank him for me though will you? At the rate you seem able to accomplish tasks, finding and thanking him should only take about 30 seconds. Lol, just kidding, don't take it personal.
tos_shai_hulud 05-09-07, 04:21 PM	Well, that's where you got it wrong then. In your example Process = Total Amount. Thank him for me though will you? At the rate you seem able to accomplish tasks, finding and thanking him should only take about 30 seconds. Lol, just kidding, don't take it personal. And where in your example does Spell <> Total Amount? EDIT: Let's compare text: Augment Healing: "Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast." My Rule: "Add 2 square inches to the area increased by any area increasing process you implement." Here are the substitutions that I made: +2 points per spell level --> 2 square inches amount of damage healed --> area increased Conjuration [Healing] spell --> area increasing process cast --> implement If in my example, a Process = Total, how is it that in the actual text, Spell <> Total Amount?
KillerGM 05-09-07, 04:42 PM	I agree that it is vague, be we shouldn't be judging this on what we think "should" be, but rather what IS. I appreciate what you have said, but it seems like you are making this descision based on what you "think" it should work like, not on what it actually says. You mention that you think I'm being overly specific, and maybe I am, but when the rules are vague, that's exactly when you NEED to be overly specific. No, what I am saying that EITHER interpretation needs different wording in the feat itself. You are taking one interpretation, while the FAQ, tos_shai_hulud, other posters, and I are taking another. Either interpretation needs different wording in order to be 100% acceptable. In my reading of the feat, exactly how it is, I don't see that it would heal anything more than once for any spell. Obviously, that's not how you read it. I am judging it on what it IS. What it IS is vague. What it IS in my view is adding +2/spell level total. What it IS to you is adding +2/spell level on every instance of healing. I don't agree with your interpretation. That's what it is - an interpretation. Nothing in the feat gives 100% either way.
Koz 05-09-07, 06:00 PM	You are taking one interpretation, while the FAQ, tos_shai_hulud, other posters, and I are taking another. Ugh. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm really not, but if you can conclusively say that the FAQ takes an opposite stance to what I'm saying, then we are reading differenct things. Please read my first post for what I'm refering to. The FAQ is so vague and unclear about this issue, I don't know WHAT it says about it. I posted this in the Spells forum too, and the first poster got what I was saying right off the bat, see here http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=844050. Koz
tos_shai_hulud 05-09-07, 06:28 PM	I'm glad that the poster on the other forum was capable of giving you the English you wanted to say something equivalent to what we have been saying.
KillerGM 05-09-07, 10:38 PM	Ugh. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm really not, but if you can conclusively say that the FAQ takes an opposite stance to what I'm saying, then we are reading differenct things. Please read my first post for what I'm refering to. The FAQ is so vague and unclear about this issue, I don't know WHAT it says about it. I posted this in the Spells forum too, and the first poster got what I was saying right off the bat, see here http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=844050. Koz I did read your post. First of all, the person who "got" what you are saying in the other thread says that Vigor should not be affected by Augment Healing, which is the opposite of what the FAQ says. Is that what you are arguing, that Augment Healing should not apply to anything but instantaneous healing spells? I agree with the FAQ, because Augment Healing states that you add +2/level for the amount healed by any Conjuration [healing] spells, and the Vigor suite is Conjuration [healing]. Fast healing is in fact healing, regardless of its named mechanic. The source of that healing is a Conjuration [healing] spell. So, it makes sense that the feat is applied to it. Second, "and similar spells" in the question means, to me, Magical Convalescence as well. It is a similar effect, and should fall under the interpretation of the Vigor spells. For another look on it, think of it like bonuses stacking. The healing is coming from the same source (the Conjuration (healing) spells), so the bonus to the healing would not stack. I'm not saying that's hard and fast, bulletproof, or anything like that, it just occured to me that it's similar in effect. :)
runestar 05-09-07, 11:04 PM	Basically, I feel wotc could have ruled in one of 3 ways. 1) Augment healing did not apply to vigor. 2) Augment healing applies, but only once. 3) Augment healing applies each round. (2) obviously seems the most fair. It at least gives players something without them feeling cheated, but not enough to break the game. So everyone is happy. Now the problem is how to implement the extra hp healed. It does not have to be in the 1st round. It could easily be the 2nd, 3rd or even last round. Or it could be divided up amongst different rounds. But it would be more useful if all the extra hp healed was front-loaded into the 1st round of fast healing, so it remains useful even during combat. I am not aware of this magic covale(whatever) spell, but going by what Koz has mentioned, I would still probably still apply it only once. I could easily rule that it does not apply at all, but as mentioned earlier, I feel that (2) is still the best compromise for both parties, for reasons stated above. Just my 2 cents.:)
Kuronue 05-10-07, 12:32 AM	Clearly, you already know exactly how things work, and don't need our help. Congratulations for being such an intelligent English Major that you know more than anyone else who disagrees with you in DnD. Clearly my poor drama-major mind is unable to comprehend the connection between being an english major and being right about a ruling in DnD. In fact, since you know so much about everything, why even post here? @.@
Ace_of_time 05-10-07, 03:41 PM	I house rule this one like this: If the spell add so much hit points per round than Augment healing feats adds round on to the duration of the spell. So if it heals for 10 rounds at 1st level spell than with this feat it heals 12 rounds for 12 hps.
darkeness 05-10-07, 09:10 PM	You're quibbling. So are you. Ugh. I'm not trying to be a jerk here But you are. It's a game and everyone who knows anything about the books put out knows how full of inacuracies and typos they are. You seem to want to argue this into pointless obscurity. I feel blessed that I do not game with you!
weasel0 05-10-07, 11:07 PM	Here here. And as one who has tested off the post-grad charts in reading and comprehension since i was 10, go sit in your corner and argue with your happy little pointed hat. You ask a question, get the same answer from quite a number of individuals, and haughtily refute it as hogwash awaiting to hear the answer you want to hear.
Forged_Fury 05-11-07, 08:57 AM	To the OP English Major, Is your concentration in Diminutive Mythical Races from the Works of L. Frank Baum? Because you've got a total lock on that. -FF
Koz 05-11-07, 09:35 AM	LOL, I can't believe this is still going! The best part is all of the people who somehow took personal offense to a debate between me and tos_shai_hulud! Wow, at least Tos and I remained fairly level headed through our debate, even thought we were at an impasse. I salute you Tos, you are head and shoulders above most other posters in this thread. Lol, the sheer number of Ad Hominem attacks on this page is staggering! Are you peoples egos so fragile that the mere mention of my having been an English Major sends you into a frenzy of personal attacks? LOL!!! Kids these days, I swear. If you haven't noticed by now, with the exception of this post, I have conceeded the point and moved on. I litterly laughed out loud when I came into this forum and this was still at the top of the page! At this point I really don't care! If trying to prove my point requires THIS much effort, its not worth it! I have better things to do. I do want to say thanks to Tos though, he's the only one who really tried to give an actual argument and not just make Ad Hominem attacks. And with that, I'm done! Koz
Ace_of_time 05-12-07, 01:10 AM	I think the problem is what you consider "a spell you cast" means. I have to say that koz is right on the fact that with just the feat discr, the feat heals an extra +2hp per spell level when the spell heals you. Now if you as DM want the 2nd part to mean when you cast the spell or that the first part to mean total HP healed, that (to me) sounds like a house rule. Now this feat is easy with cure light spells and the like because the spells just heals and ends but for spells like Vigor spells, they last for a number of rounds and the feat would work different for them because it just says when a spell you cast heals you meaning that everytime the spell heals you and you are the one how cast it you get the +2 per spell level. I think the OP is asking if you just use the feat entry, without interperting anything, if that is how it works and that is how it works without adding anything.
Someone 05-12-07, 01:45 AM	It's probably better to break it down by initiative, which leads to: Cleric with AH casts a vigor spell on their initiative. Recipient heals 2 hp/ spell level on the cleric's initiative, as per AH. Recipient heals fast healing amount on their initiative, as per the spell. I think that makes the most sense explaining it.
Ace_of_time 05-12-07, 02:15 AM	Don't really like those spells any way. From what I read it only heals up to the HPs you had when you cast the spell. Unless they changed it. I used AH with the healers class. I never had to worry about HP in that game.